Legal Advance Review of TWOIAF

[Moondancer]

Did he dream of being a dragon? Or did he only dream of riding/having one?

Riding/having one - but given that the human dragons only ride the real dragons, I made a derivative supposition. :) Why would a Lannister want to be like a Targaryen?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Moondancer

This was the chapter that was all about identity. It was the one where Tyrion advised Jon on how to deal with his bastard identity, and the one where he concluded with the poignant "All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes", comment.

The King reference there is very appropriate as a subtle comment on Tyrion's identity, in relation to the father that views him as a bastard. The irony is that in this case, he is a REAL bastard, not because of his dwarfism, but due to his paternity.

And what makes the chapter all the more poignant (in hindsight), is that Jon and Tyrion are in fact blood relations. It is Jon's noble uncle who is giving him advice on how to deal with life as a bastard. Only the ironic truth is that their roles are actually reversed. Tyrion is in fact the bastard, and Jon the trueborn heir.

So many levels to the conversation, and so many tie-inns to the shadow that Tyrion casts at the end.

It is actually beautiful writing if one assumes that Tyrion is Aerys's son, and Jon is Rhaegar's.

[Ran]

So maybe having seen the importance of Tyrion in the flames, Moqorro tricks Victarian...

Quite obvious that Moqorro knows the "glory" he's seen for Victarion is not his successful seizing of a dragon.

I'm not saying it's a given it'll end up being used to bind a dragon to Tyrion to allow him to be a dragonrider and a head of the prophetic three-headed dragon dragon (because, as GRRM said long ago, the dragon has three heads... but the heads need not all be Targaryens), but I would not rule it out. The dragonbinding horn might have been created in internecine warfare between dragonlords, created to steal dragons away, and it does so in a fashion that doesn't respect or require the dragonblood for... magic reasons. OR something.

In any case, it's a possibility to bear in mind, given George's old remark on the three heads of the dragon.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Yes. Although George's old comment could also have been an attempt to steer people away from realizing too early that there are in fact 3 surviving Targaryens. At that time - and even today in fact - there is officially only 1 remaining Targaryen, and that is Daenerys, with Aegon having an unproven claim to being a possible second.

So at the time, if Martin did not raise the possibility of a non-Targaryen being able to ride a dragon, it would have given away the fact that there are in fact 3 surviving Targaryens running around in Westeros and Essos.

Also, Martin would not have been lying when he said that, as we know a Dragonseed likely only needs Targaryen blood, but need not be an actual Targaryen. A Velaryon or other Targ descendant like Brown Ben Plumm would also possibly qualify, if the dragon happened to accept them.

So Martin would have been technically speaking the truth, without actually stating that one of the three will NOT be a direct (first generation) Targaryen.

EDIT

Just to add that I don't think Jon will end up riding one of Dany's dragons in any case. I am pretty sure that Euron will indeed get one of the dragons, else his entire plot is a total farce. Jon has another destiny, and he may even inherit Drogon after Daenerys's death or some such endgame scenario.

But I think the purpose of the dragonbinder horn is indeed to steal one of Dany's dragons away. But this one will likely go to Euron, while Tyrion gets the other by virtue of his Targaryen blood, and Daenerys getting Drogon, obviously.

[Moondancer]

Moondancer

This was the chapter that was all about identity. It was the one where Tyrion advised Jon on how to deal with his bastard identity, and the one where he concluded with the poignant "All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes", comment.

The King reference there is very appropriate as a subtle comment on Tyrion's identity, in relation to the father that views him as a bastard. The irony is that in this case, he is a REAL bastard, not because of his dwarfism, but due to his paternity.

And what makes the chapter all the more poignant (in hindsight), is that Jon and Tyrion are in fact blood relations. It is Jon's noble uncle who is giving him advice on how to deal with life as a bastard. Only the ironic truth is that their roles are actually reversed. Tyrion is in fact the bastard, and Jon the trueborn heir.

So many levels to the conversation, and so many tie-inns to the shadow that Tyrion casts at the end.

It is actually beautiful writing if one assumes that Tyrion is Aerys's son, and Jon is Rhaegar's.

I absolutely agree that this scene is brimming with the themes of identity - however, I think that the connection goes in different direction, towards Aemon's comment.

"Casting a tall shadow" and being a giant that has come among the men of NW both pertain to Tyrion's character and his own perception of himself that implies a great deal of introspection, no-bullshit attitude and simple but painful truths, imo. In this light, Tyrion is impressive, just like a king/giant. It's his attitude that allows him to tower people around him.

Also,he's not a real bastard (yes, I know what you mean). Having a name : not bastard, not having a name : a bastard. :) The question of his paternity has long been settled. Aaaand, we don't know if Jon is trueborn. I trust the bird, but hey, I don't think it will matter.

[Free Northman Reborn]

If Tyrion is proven to be Aerys's son, he is in fact a Great Bastard.

[naseridrl]

Ran

(Sorry, my quote function acting up again).

That is a good point, regarding the dragonbinder horn. I just can't help feeling that it sounds too easy, and kind of invalidates the tremendous efforts the Valyrian dragonlords went to to keep their bloodlines pure and linked to that of their family dragons.

I tend to theorize that the dragonbinder duplicates the ritual through which each Dragonlord family initially bound a dragon lineage to their own bloodline. Meaning it can probably work on unbound "wild" dragons, but not on dragons that are already bound to the blood of a particular family. Or at the very least, not on dragons which have accepted a rider already. Which means Drogon is safe, but the other two are not.

And I would think you probably need some blood from the dragon in question as well, to create the blood magic link between the man and beast. Which might be possible if one of the dragons are injured in the Battle of Meereen. As Tyrion's little cevasse game with the ivory colored dragon drenched in blood might foreshadow....

If the Horn works it probably requires a price like most magic, maybe the price just doesn't reveal itself until after you've used it. So maybe it'll seem simple to begin with but afterwards there will be a big price to be revealed. Maybe the flip a coin madness or greatness stuff with the Targs is connected to that somehow.

[Moondancer]

If Tyrion is proven to be Aerys's son, he is in fact a Great Bastard.

I have always thought that moniker to be reserved for Aegon IV's bastards, they made history, after all and it originated with them... :dunno:

[Bael's Bastard]

If Tyrion is proven to be Aerys's son, he is in fact a Great Bastard.

Even if we discover it is likely or certain that Aerys fathered him, what are the odds that he will ever have his status as legitimate and Lannister revoked? The Great Bastards were not just rumored, or believed to be bastards,, they were legally bastards. Tyrion is legally a legitimate Lannister, even if it turns out he was fathered by Aerys.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ok. I think Tyrion will end up ruling Casterly Rock. But I also think he is Aerys's son.

And I think the way Martin resolved this without ending the ruling Lannister bloodline, was by making Joanna a Lannister by birth as well. Thus ensuring that the Lannister blood lives on in Tyrion, even though he was not fathered by Tywin.

[Dofs]

If the Horn works it probably requires a price like most magic, maybe the price just doesn't reveal itself until after you've used it. So maybe it'll seem simple to begin with but afterwards there will be a big price to be revealed. Maybe the flip a coin madness or greatness stuff with the Targs is connected to that somehow.

Wasn't the price of blowing the Horn to be the life of the one who blew the Horn? I think Moqorro translated it to Victarion from the writings on the Horn.

[Lord Varys]

Dragonbinder really has a lot of possibilities:

1. It was, among others, a tool, the original dragonlord families used to bind their lines to the dragon lines (i.e. a necessary tool to bind the original wild dragons to the first Valyrians).

If that's the case, then the interesting question are: Can it be used to claim dragons who are already bound to a bloodline (i.e. the Targaryens)? Were Dany's eggs originally Targaryen dragon eggs, or are they unbound dragon eggs (if Dragonbinder can bind wild dragons to new bloodlines, then it could work if Dany's dragons are 'wild' in the sense that they are not bound to a bloodline - but if Dany's dragons are already bound to the Targaryen line due to the fact that they are descended from Targaryen dragons, or have been bound to Dany's bloodline via the magical birth, Dragonbinder might not work).

2. It was a way to claim unclaimed dragons already bound to a dragonriding family (unlikely, because the Targaryens never needed or used such devices after the Conquest - at least as far as we know).

3. It is a sort of weapon specifically created to steal away claimed dragons from their riders, as Ran has suggested. Although that raises the question as to why the Qartheen, as far as we know, never had dragons of their own. It's confirmed that Euron took Dragonbinder from Pyat Pree and his warlocks, after all. The Undying of old must have taken/gotten it from the Valyrians.

Perhaps the whole stuff about 'claiming the horn with blood' also refers to Valyrian dragonblood. The Valyrian sorcerers may only have designed weapons that could help one dragonlord bloodline to steal away the dragons from another Valyrian line (explaining why the Undying who had no Valyrian blood could not use Dragonbinder to steal Valyrian dragons), else there would have been no need for incest to keep the blood of the dragon pure.

In that sense, Tyrion's dragon blood may become important very soon.

There is also a very small chance that Tyrion, the son of Tywin and Joanna, would ever dare to try to mount a dragon on his own as long as he does not have a very strong reason to believe that he could successfully claim such a beast. He will soon hear the story of Quentyn's demise, and he is a dwarf with stunted legs - his chances to evade the flames of an angry dragon are zero.

The only other possibility is that he comes across a dragon (Viserion) in the heat of battle and it is climb on the dragon's back or die. But then, this event in itself would most likely confirm Tyrion's parentage (Aerys + Joanna) one way or the other (at least in his mind). Tyrion is aware that dragon blood is important when dealing with dragons, that much was confirmed when he talked to Brown Ben about Dany's dragons. And Barristan Selmy is still around - if there is anyone who might know the truth about Aerys and Joanna - if anything is there to be known - it would be Barristan. And is much more reluctant to discuss Aerys-Joanna than he is to speak about Rhaella-Bonifer - there is clearly more to it than he has already revealed.

If Tyrion does no accidentally claim a dragon, he may be forced to try to claim one after the battle, if the wild dragons cause more and more problems, and Barristan may be the person who can suggests him as a 'dragonseed'.

[Maia]

There's not though, we already know that from the Westerlands reading.

Well, technically, either or both of Tyrion's grandmothers could still be descendants of Viserys Plumm through the female line.

However, it just doesn't make sense to obfuscate the Plumm ancestry of Tyrion and the twins to that degree, if it is supposed to be responsible for him/them bonding dragons or going mad, etc. The World book was a golden opportunity to plausibly insert a Plumm into the Lannister pedigree. I am sure that GRRM eschewed this chance for a reason.

And what makes the chapter all the more poignant (in hindsight), is that Jon and Tyrion are in fact blood relations. It is Jon's noble uncle who is giving him advice on how to deal with life as a bastard. Only the ironic truth is that their roles are actually reversed. Tyrion is in fact the bastard, and Jon the trueborn heir..

Oh, absolutely. After I became convinced that Tyrion is very likely Aerys's bastard (which happened after ASoS), I have always considered this interaction to be a piece of truly delicious irony. Though, lately, I am starting to think that Jon is likely a bastard too, because it increasingly looks like polygamy was never truly accepted as legal in Westeros, not even for Targaryens. So, Jon may not be a trueborn heir. But, in any case Tyrion's situation growing up would have been a dark mirror of Jon's.

. The dragonbinding horn might have been created in internecine warfare between dragonlords, created to steal dragons away, and it does so in a fashion that doesn't respect or require the dragonblood for... magic reasons. OR something.In any case, it's a possibility to bear in mind, given George's old remark on the three heads of the dragon.

Yea, sure. However, if one could steal dragons by making some poor slaves blow the horn, then why didn't the Quartheen get some? They had been warring against Valyria, and they had a horn...

Also, it would be Lord Voldemort level of plotting to have the dragons vulnerable to something that would be so easy to (ab)use - oh, to get this very important artifact you have to drink deadly poison - mwa-ha-ha! unbreakable protection. Which you can totally circumvent by taking along a patsy and feeding the poison to them instead! Also, your house-elves can enter and leave my very secret hide-out at their leisure, and take you along as well! What can go wrong?

So, IMHO, only a very powerful sorceror would be able to use the horn to steal a dragon and they'd only be able to bond it to themselves. Which makes Moqorro himself a likely candidate for a (temporary?) dragon-rider. Because, if anybody would be able blow the horn without dying (again), it would be a fire-wight, which I suspect he is.

[Ran]

Yea, sure. However, if one could steal dragons by making some poor slaves blow the horn, then why didn't the Quartheen get some?

It's not a Qartheen horn. It is Valyrian. When did they get a hold of it? Under what circumstances? Why? All important questions. If Euron's claim was half a truth -- someone (not him) went to the ruins of Valyria and pulled this horn out of there... well, there's your answer: no dragons, outside of Westeros.

They had been warring against Valyria...

Where is this said? Ghis and the Rhoynar are known to have fought Valyria, but I don't recall a reference to Qarth having done so.

[Veltigar]

I absolutely agree that this scene is brimming with the themes of identity - however, I think that the connection goes in different direction, towards Aemon's comment.

"Casting a tall shadow" and being a giant that has come among the men of NW both pertain to Tyrion's character and his own perception of himself that implies a great deal of introspection, no-bullshit attitude and simple but painful truths, imo. In this light, Tyrion is impressive, just like a king/giant. It's his attitude that allows him to tower people around him.

Agreed, this is my interpretation as well. Tyrion might not be the most pleasant character in the books, but if he had Jaime's looks he would have ruled the world (so to speak). He's a great man, trapped in a disfigured, stunted body. I saw the line always a a clue that Tyrion will go out in a kingly way, inspiring Jon (who sees his shadow) to rule well.

That clue should be real strong to make me think anything else than that Tyrion is the son of Tywin and Joanna.

[Maia]

It's not a Qartheen horn. It is Valyrian. When did they get a hold of it? Under what circumstances? Why? All important questions. If Euron's claim was half a truth -- someone (not him) went to the ruins of Valyria and pulled this horn out of there... well, there's your answer: no dragons, outside of Westeros.

I thought that the story was a complete bunk and the Quarteen had the horn from before the fall of Valyria. So, Quarth didn't fight with Valyria? Cool. Still, if they had the means to easily claim a dragon - and any subsequent dragons that came after them for it? It is odd that they didn't succomb to temptation. After all, Valyria was still expanding when the Doom happened and they may have come for Quarth at some point.

Also, even for Valyrians themselves having the horns - they didn't lack for disposable slaves and if the process of stealing dragons from under each other had been as trivial as Moqorro claimed to Vic, they'd have been doing it constantly. And why practice incest in this case? No, IMHO there is clearly some wrinkle that limited the use of dragonhorns in internecine squabbles.

Personally, I still believe at this point that the horn could only be used to facilitate claiming riderless dragons, including those belonging to a different family... and that the one doing the claiming had to use the horn and not die, i.e. prove themselves more than a "mortal man".

[Consigliere]

True, it is no hard proof. But it does decrease the chances a lot.

The Plumm ancestry most likely came to be thanks to Elaena (so after 172AC). That would mean that the only way that there could be Targaryen blood through Plumm ancestry amongst the Lannnisters, is by having that child marry Damon Lannister.

That would mean that the child was a girl, which is impossible, as the line continued through Elaena´s child, hence the birth of Brown Ben Plumm (eventually).

What about Joanna? Do we know anything about her parents, grandparents or great-grandparents? There are still a myriad of ways that Targ blood could have come into the main Lannister line.

Like I said before if there is Targ blood in the Lannister gene pool then making Tyrion a Targ bastard becomes superfluous. If not and Tyrion does get a dragon (without use of the dragon horn) then the likelihood of A+J=T being true increases substantially.

[Bael's Bastard]

Consigliere,

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/111163-spoilers-the-history-of-the-westerlands/

The History of the Westerlands reading showed that Joanna's father (Jason) was the youngest brother of Tywin's father (Tytos). So Joanna's paternal ancestry prior to her father and Tywin's paternal ancestry prior to his father are the same. Not sure about Joanna's mother's ancestry, aside from her mother being Marla Prester.

[Maia]

What about Joanna? Do we know anything about her parents, grandparents or great-grandparents? There are still a myriad of ways that Targ blood could have come into the main Lannister line.

Well, from the Westerlands reading we know the Houses of Joanna's and Tywin's mothers and of their shared grandmother, none of whom were Plumms. Yes, it is still remotely possible that said mothers were descended from Plumms through the female line - but why obfuscate it so much? Why not just make one or both of them Plumms and call it a day?

Like I said before if there is Targ blood in the Lannister gene pool then making Tyrion a Targ bastard becomes superfluous. If not and Tyrion does get a dragon (without use of the dragon horn) then the likelihood of A+J=T being true increases substantially.

Actually, if there had been Plumms in the family tree, it would explain how Joanna planned to explain Tyrion's appearance if he had been born all silver-haired and purple-eyed. So, it wouldn't be completely superfluous.

Also, that wood witch was quite insistent on Aerys and Rhaella marrying each other - maybe because having Targ blood from both sides of the family tree might have been important? Maybe Aerys's blood already lacked something necessary for dragon-bonding and not just for dragon-hatching? So, I could see a point in there being post-Elaena Plumm blood in the Lannisters, but Tyrion still being Aerys's son. But it doesn't look like GRRM is playing it that way.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

What about Joanna? Do we know anything about her parents, grandparents or great-grandparents? There are still a myriad of ways that Targ blood could have come into the main Lannister line.

Like I said before if there is Targ blood in the Lannister gene pool then making Tyrion a Targ bastard becomes superfluous. If not and Tyrion does get a dragon (without use of the dragon horn) then the likelihood of A+J=T being true increases substantially.

Yeah, we do know about Joanna's parents.

Joanna's father was Jason, the younger brother of Tytos. Jason had been married to a Stackspear girl, who died after giving birth once, and then married Marla Prester, who birthed him his other children. So one of them was Joanna's mother.

Joanna's grandparents were Tywin's grandparents, Gerold Lannister, and Lady Rohanne.