Jon, (f?)Aegon, and Dany. Who bends the knee to whom?

[chrisdaw]

Aegon is not going to be an accepted and loved king. The WOt5K has decimated Westeros, especially the Riverlands. The largest stores in the Reach are in danger from the !@(#(@! Greyjoys, and not everyone in the South will welcome Aegon with open arms, which means more warfare.

And winter isn't just coming... winter is here.

He will be well loved and accepted as Varys has prepared and more so than Dany ever will be. The Faith and KL will open their arms to him, he'll take up arms against the Greyjoys and turn the Reach to him and Dorne will come with Arianne. What does Winter coming have to do with it? And the TWo5k is part of the reason the realm is ready to embrace an Aegon.

[Visenya Stark]

He will be well loved and accepted as Varys has prepared and more so than Dany ever will be. The Faith and KL will open their arms to him, he'll take up arms against the Greyjoys and turn the Reach to him and Dorne will come with Arianne. What does Winter coming have to do with it? And the TWo5k is part of the reason the realm is ready to embrace an Aegon.

Yeah, the people will remember that when the Targaryens were around, the realm was relatively stable. And Aegon will claim to be the son of Rhaegar who was well liked. The commoners even like Aerys!

[Mithras]

Aegon will be loved well because

people like to deceive themselves when they want to believe;

he is supposedly Rhaegar's son;

neither the Lannisters/Tyrells nor Stannis will seem appealing to them;

he is the mummer's dragon and Varys will conduct a perfect PR campaign;

it is foreshadowed in HotU (cheering crowd);

The HS and the Faith will back fAegon and he will play that card well - also being associated with the Red Religion will take its toll on Dany as it did on Stannis;

fAegon will fight the ironborn raiders whereas Dany will bring ironborn and ally with them;

etc.

In the end, fAegon will fall in battle but Dany's victory will come at great costs. The Black Dragon propoganda machine will stain Dany's reputation irreparably. Although Dany will conquer the Realm south of the Neck, she will fail at conquering the hearts of the people.

[Rorey Targaryen]

Aegon- (99% sure he's the real deal, 1% suspect that he's a pisswater prince, but no Blackfyre/ Brightflame) will rule the Iron Throne at the end with Sansa as his Queen and Tyrion as his Kingmaker.

Jon Snow- if R+L=J, he's still a bastard though and will still consider his only father to be Ned. He will be Westerosi Jesus, save humanity from the Others and will either die at the end or rule the Wildlings as King beyond the Wall with Val as his Queen.

Daenerys- (1) Survive the War against the Others and goes back to Essos to fix her mess and Rule as Queen of the people she liberated.

(2) Die in the War against the Others and her nephew/s control her Dragons.

[Fire Eater]

Aegon will be loved well because

people like to deceive themselves when they want to believe;

he is supposedly Rhaegar's son;

neither the Lannisters/Tyrells nor Stannis will seem appealing to them;

he is the mummer's dragon and Varys will conduct a perfect PR campaign;

it is foreshadowed in HotU (cheering crowd);

The HS and the Faith will back fAegon and he will play that card well - also being associated with the Red Religion will take its toll on Dany as it did on Stannis;

fAegon will fight the ironborn raiders whereas Dany will bring ironborn and ally with them;

etc.

In the end, fAegon will fall in battle but Dany's victory will come at great costs. The Black Dragon propoganda machine will stain Dany's reputation irreparably. Although Dany will conquer the Realm south of the Neck, she will fail at conquering the hearts of the people.

That's the thing, Dany has been told her whole life from Viserys to Barristan that people will welcome her return with open arms, likely only to finally arrive and be villainized and rejected by a significant segment of the population. She would be pretty disillusioned.

As for the Blackfyre propaganda machine, they will have plenty of material to work with thanks to the rumors spread by the Yunkai'i. Among the things she will be called: the Mad King's daughter, liar, whore and possibly abomination if the HS tries to bring up that she was born of incest.

[Winterfell Resident]

In my humble opinion, the Starks and the entire North will never bend the knee to an outsider again.

I believe that so far in the books that it is shaping to be that way.

The 7 kingdoms only became united through power. That was through Aegon the conqueror, his sisters, his dragons, and a small army.

Power is the key!

This Aegon(f?) may come and try to claim the Iron Throne because of a sense of entitlement because he believes he is next in line for it. Perhaps in a time of peace. However, westeros is still in turmoil. The North is in a state in which it is about to clean house and rightfully restore the Starks back to power. if Aegon(f?) has power like that of his ancestor Aegon the conqueror then surely all of Westeros will bend the knee. If not, then it will prove fruitless for him and his backers.

Daenerys on the other hand has power. She has dragons, and an army that is growing.

With what Daenerys has right now she can clearly come into Kings Landing and cause havoc and even secure Kings Landing with her dragons and her small army. However, she will have only conquered a city not Westeros.

If people of Westeros were clamoring for the return of the Targaryens, then maybe she would be able to conquer all of Westeros. Aegon the Conqueror had houses in the south of Westeros that lobbied for Aegon to come in and conquer Westeros. But will Daenerys have that? Too soon to tell. And will the Faith of the Seven accept her as well. Even Aegon the conqueror had to strike some kind of deal with the Faith in order to come in and conquer the 7 kingdoms.

But, ultimately it comes down to power and Daenerys has the power to do it.

Which leaves Jon Snow. Now Jon snow, if he is still alive come Winds of Winter, has no real power. However, there is Bran Stark who is learning greenseeing and warging abilities as we speak. Bran is one of the keys to defeating the Others and the power of the North.

If the Others are defeated or are put back to sleep again, the only powers remaining in Westeros will be Daenerys and Bran Stark.

So now this begs the question, who do you think will be the stronger of the two?

Let's look at the tales of the tape:

1)Daenerys:

a) She has the ability of not to be burn by fire.

b) She has the ability to control the dragons without any instruments to a degree.

c) She has an army who are willing to lay down their lives for her.

2) Bran Stark:

a) Has warging abilities that allows him to warg into any living creature, even dragons and humans.

b) Has the ability to look into the past, present and future.

c) Has greenseeing ability that allows him to raise the oceans and seas to wipe out an entire land mass just like the arm of dorne.

d) Has northern countrymen that are willing to lay down their lives for him because he is a Stark.

With Bran Stark we are assuming that if and when his training with the 3 eyed raven is complete he will be able to fulfill the first three things in the list.

Jon Snow through Bran Stark will never again have to bend the knee to anyone, that goes for all of the remaining Starks.

I don't believe Daenerys will have a conflict with the Starks. Eventually she will come to understanding that if she still has intentions on taking the 7 kingdoms she will know that it will not include the North.

If she is still insistent on taking all of the 7 kingdoms including the North, I don't see how she will be able to conquer the North.

She will lose. Bran Starks abilities will be omnipotent-like. I don't believe Daenerys will be able to handle a power such as that. She will have to respect it and be humbled by it if she insists on taking the North.

Aegon(f?) does not have anyone in the South who has magical powers like that of Bran or control of any dragons. Aegon may well be bending the knee to Daenerys.

Either the Starks will rule over all of Westeros or they will rule just the North as it's own country but will never bend the knee to anyone ever again.

It looks like this is where it's headed for A Dream of Spring.

[sj4iy]

In my humble opinion, the Starks and the entire North will never bend the knee to an outsider again.

I believe that so far in the books that it is shaping to be that way.

The 7 kingdoms only became united through power. That was through Aegon the conqueror, his sisters, his dragons, and a small army.

Power is the key!

This Aegon(f?) may come and try to claim the Iron Throne because of a sense of entitlement because he believes he is next in line for it. Perhaps in a time of peace. However, westeros is still in turmoil. The North is in a state in which it is about to clean house and rightfully restore the Starks back to power. if Aegon(f?) has power like that of his ancestor Aegon the conqueror then surely all of Westeros will bend the knee. If not, then it will prove fruitless for him and his backers.

Daenerys on the other hand has power. She has dragons, and an army that is growing.

With what Daenerys has right now she can clearly come into Kings Landing and cause havoc and even secure Kings Landing with her dragons and her small army. However, she will have only conquered a city not Westeros.

If people of Westeros were clamoring for the return of the Targaryens, then maybe she would be able to conquer all of Westeros. Aegon the Conqueror had houses in the south of Westeros that lobbied for Aegon to come in and conquer Westeros. But will Daenerys have that? Too soon to tell. And will the Faith of the Seven accept her as well. Even Aegon the conqueror had to strike some kind of deal with the Faith in order to come in and conquer the 7 kingdoms.

But, ultimately it comes down to power and Daenerys has the power to do it.

Which leaves Jon Snow. Now Jon snow, if he is still alive come Winds of Winter, has no real power. However, there is Bran Stark who is learning greenseeing and warging abilities as we speak. Bran is one of the keys to defeating the Others and the power of the North.

If the Others are defeated or are put back to sleep again, the only powers remaining in Westeros will be Daenerys and Bran Stark.

So now this begs the question, who do you think will be the stronger of the two?

Let's look at the tales of the tape:

1)Daenerys:

a) She has the ability of not to be burn by fire.

B) She has the ability to control the dragons without any instruments to a degree.

c) She has an army who are willing to lay down their lives for her.

2) Bran Stark:

a) Has warging abilities that allows him to warg into any living creature, even dragons and humans.

B) Has the ability to look into the past, present and future.

c) Has greenseeing ability that allows him to raise the oceans and seas to wipe out an entire land mass just like the arm of dorne.

d) Has northern countrymen that are willing to lay down their lives for him because he is a Stark.

With Bran Stark we are assuming that if and when his training with the 3 eyed raven is complete he will be able to fulfill the first three things in the list.

Jon Snow through Bran Stark will never again have to bend the knee to anyone, that goes for all of the remaining Starks.

I don't believe Daenerys will have a conflict with the Starks. Eventually she will come to understanding that if she still has intentions on taking the 7 kingdoms she will know that it will not include the North.

If she is still insistent on taking all of the 7 kingdoms including the North, I don't see how she will be able to conquer the North.

She will lose. Bran Starks abilities will be omnipotent-like. I don't believe Daenerys will be able to handle a power such as that. She will have to respect it and be humbled by it if she insists on taking the North.

Aegon(f?) does not have anyone in the South who has magical powers like that of Bran or control of any dragons. Aegon may well be bending the knee to Daenerys.

Either the Starks will rule over all of Westeros or they will rule just the North as it's own country but will never bend the knee to anyone ever again.

It looks like this is where it's headed for A Dream of Spring.

If Jon Snow is alive in the next book, he has the ability to command a lot of power- the Wildlings back him, many in the NW back him. And, if Robb's will comes back up, he could even possibly be the next KitN.

Bran lacks something really important- a body. He may be able to take other forms, but not permanently- not if he wants to continue being able to do what he does. He has a lot of power, but it's not the kind of power that would be needed in the mortal world. He exists on a higher plane, and I don't see him ever rejoining the world of men.

Bran will probably be important to Jon in the next two books, and will be extremely important in the war against the Others, but I don't see anyone ever 'bending the knee' to him.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

In my humble opinion, the Starks and the entire North will never bend the knee to an outsider again.

Even though it was only on the show, I admit my ears perked up when Tormund told Jon he'd "never be a kneeler again." I agree with you: I think the North's been through too much and come too far to go back to being under the Iron Throne.

[Winterfell Resident]

To Sji4y,

The point I was trying to make was not that knees will be bent to Bran Stark. But through Bran, Jon Stark will never have to bend his knee again.

As far as Jon and the army he may be commanding, provided he is still alive in "Winds of Winter", they cannot withstand the power of dragons. Jon Snow does not possess any horn instrument that could wrest control of the dragons from Daenerys or possibly Victarion Greyjoy(? to soon to tell right now).

How will Jon Snow be able to defend against that. Jon Snow, if alive, has power enough to rival a force such as the Boltons and freys. Yes. But, when it comes to the forces of the supernatural that is when all of that comes to a halt.

Remember this is what all of Westeros faced 300 years ago when Aegon the Conqueror came to Westeros. Those armies back then including the North under Torrhen Stark were experienced and knowledgeable about warfare on the ground and on the seas. But when it came to dragons, no one had an answer for Aegon and his sisters.

This is where you must include the supernatural or magical element as a tool to help in a war.

Aegon(f?) does not possess that.

Daenerys possesses it through her ability to be engulfed in fire without any harm and control of dragons.

Bran Stark possesses it through the completion of his training from the 3 eyed raven.

Jon Snow does not possess that.

Only through Bran Stark will Jon Snow never bend his knee to anyone again.

In the world of "A Song of Ice and Fire" magic trumps armies.

The only way to fight magic is with magic.

Jon Snow's power will come by way of Bran Stark whether he knows it or not.

[chrisdaw]

In the end, fAegon will fall in battle but Dany's victory will come at great costs. The Black Dragon propoganda machine will stain Dany's reputation irreparably. Although Dany will conquer the Realm south of the Neck, she will fail at conquering the hearts of the people.

I doubt much propaganda against Dany will come via Varys, I expect he'll be trying to make peace between the two until the very end while everyone else, Tyrion especially, are stoking the fire. After Aegon falls it will be Sansa with Arya who escalate the emotions of KL by way of rumour, song and mummery to bring down Dany remotely.

[Robb_Warged]

In my humble opinion, the Starks and the entire North will never bend the knee to an outsider again.

I have similar feelings. I know every house has had unfortunate things done to them but after Ned and Robb's deaths, and the circumstances around those deaths, I think the North will refuse to be united with the rest of Westeros again. Maybe they will bend the knee to Stannis if Stannis liberates them from the Boltons and the false Lannister king. Maybe they will bend the knee to a true dragon ("It was the dragons we married"), but I could see them staying independent

[JonSnow4President]

Daenerys possesses it through her ability to be engulfed in fire without any harm and control of dragons.

Is anyone else so annoyed by this, they completely blank out to anything the poster says in the same post (not just this instance, but other people as well)?

[sj4iy]

To Sji4y,

The point I was trying to make was not that knees will be bent to Bran Stark. But through Bran, Jon Stark will never have to bend his knee again.

As far as Jon and the army he may be commanding, provided he is still alive in "Winds of Winter", they cannot withstand the power of dragons. Jon Snow does not possess any horn instrument that could wrest control of the dragons from Daenerys or possibly Victarion Greyjoy(? to soon to tell right now).

He doesn't need a horn. He's a Targaryan. In any case, why are you automatically assuming that Dany will fight Jon? I see no evidence of that at all. Jon wouldn't waste his time on fighting Dany when the Others are threatening Westeros. If Jon does become King of Westeros, it would be after the War for the Dawn, imo. And at that point, Dany would already know who Jon is and wouldn't fight him.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Daenerys possesses it through her ability to be engulfed in fire without any harm and control of dragons.

Dany is not fireproof.

Is anyone else so annoyed by this, they completely blank out to anything the poster says in the same post (not just this instance, but other people as well)?

Yes.

[Visenya Stark]

To Sji4y,

The point I was trying to make was not that knees will be bent to Bran Stark. But through Bran, Jon Stark will never have to bend his knee again.

As far as Jon and the army he may be commanding, provided he is still alive in "Winds of Winter", they cannot withstand the power of dragons. Jon Snow does not possess any horn instrument that could wrest control of the dragons from Daenerys or possibly Victarion Greyjoy(? to soon to tell right now).

How will Jon Snow be able to defend against that. Jon Snow, if alive, has power enough to rival a force such as the Boltons and freys. Yes. But, when it comes to the forces of the supernatural that is when all of that comes to a halt.

Remember this is what all of Westeros faced 300 years ago when Aegon the Conqueror came to Westeros. Those armies back then including the North under Torrhen Stark were experienced and knowledgeable about warfare on the ground and on the seas. But when it came to dragons, no one had an answer for Aegon and his sisters.

This is where you must include the supernatural or magical element as a tool to help in a war.

Aegon(f?) does not possess that.

Daenerys possesses it through her ability to be engulfed in fire without any harm and control of dragons.

Bran Stark possesses it through the completion of his training from the 3 eyed raven.

Jon Snow does not possess that.

Only through Bran Stark will Jon Snow never bend his knee to anyone again.

In the world of "A Song of Ice and Fire" magic trumps armies.

The only way to fight magic is with magic.

Jon Snow's power will come by way of Bran Stark whether he knows it or not.

Jon's power as a greenseer could awaken after he wakes up. The same thing happened with Bran.