Will ASOIAF/GOT be remembered as a classic series?

[BrienneofQarth]

First off, I agree with pretty much everyone else, Yukle's response was pretty brilliant. :bowdown:

I think the answer will depend on when the series gets finished, and how... GRRM has certainly made a phenomenal impact on modern fantasy...but the series is still very much still in the air, and I think that only its completion will determine how the whole is received. The ending will most probably 'delight' some fans and irritate others. How it will be recorded in the annals of literature is another thing....but this is assuming it gets finished. We seem to be drifting further and further from the end with every new volume.

And, big and, I feel treasonous saying this, but I think that not all the volumes are of equal literary quality. It doesn't always make for satisfying reading, the fake deaths, new characters, secret identities, endless prophecies and so forth. I feel there are some bits of Feast and Dance that just were not brilliant writing... if Winds of Winter continues the same trend, then who knows...

Given their impact, the TV series will almost certainly be regarded as a 'classic' though, just maybe not by faithful readers of the books.

[The King in Black]

That's a good point

What is this series supposed to be about? What are it's morals? What was it supposed to be in the end? What are we as readers supposed to learn from it? So far all it's been is that ' Yeah, a grim fantasy series. ..' That's it? Considering the so far trend of the series, it might be possible . I don't know, but this is something I'll be watching out for in the next books

[lenniegroove]

It's way too early to tell since we haven't reached the end-point. It may also be that the show is remembered as classic, but the books are not - or vice versa.

Criticizing LotR for lack of character development missed the point. Nobody reads the Odyssey or Norse epics and complains that the characters are one dimensional.

[ummester]

Given their impact, the TV series will almost certainly be regarded as a 'classic' though, just maybe not by faithful readers of the books.

As a show lover first, before I became a reader I honestly don't know which is better. I'm trying to be very critical and unbiased and can see some areas where the show improved the narrative and some where it degraded it.

If nothing else, the series will be remembered for the level of adult fantasy storytelling that it brought to television.

[A Man Has Said]

Only if Martin finishes the series. If not it will be remembered as a supreme embarrasment

^^ THIS! - in spades. ^^ :agree:

Critics will be pointing to his schedule since the TV deal for "A Game of Thrones" (the series) for years to come. He looks at the giant check - Ka-CHING!! - and figures he never has to work another day in his life. Everything since then has been avoidance of the task at hand and 6 months of every year attending ComicCons. He splits the rest of his time between making popcorn at the Jean Cocteau Cinema and editing anthologies that anybody could have edited.

It's true that you can't hurry genius, but it's also true that you have to give your genius a chance by actually spending the time on it. As Thomas Edison said, it is 1% inspiration and 99% perspiration.

As fans of the series, we might as well consider him to have retired. Sad, but true.

[sj4iy]

I forgot to write my opinion of the show.

I think it will be remembered as one of the best shows during the television renaissance of our time. Its success will be a boon for fantasy series which normally never see any success on tv. Series like "Outlander" will be given a chance because of GoT proving that fantasy can be successful.

If it can continue in the way it has with great acting, writing and effects, I think it will be put up there with the other top shows of this generation. It will also very likely break new ground at being the first show ever to spoil the books from which it is adapted, and I will be extremely interested to see what ratings will be like when it starts breaking into new territory.

[ChillyPolly]

Will LOST be remembered as a classic TV series? If not, then the answer for ASOIAF depends upon whether and how he ends it.

[The King in Black]

Will LOST be remembered as a classic TV series? If not, then the answer for ASOIAF depends upon whether and how he ends it.

:bowdown:

[sj4iy]

Will LOST be remembered as a classic TV series? If not, then the answer for ASOIAF depends upon whether and how he ends it.

Eh, I think it's a bit different. GoT is groundbreaking genre-wise, so even if the ending sucks, it has done something no other fantasy show has done- be immensely successful on tv. Lost wasn't.

[The Wolf Lord's Daughter]

Lords of the Rings gained its popularity and reputation from being a very complete fantasy. Tolkien was a linguist, first and foremost, and also a fairly able historian. Frodo, Sam and Smeagol have character development but the rest of the characters don't have it in any significant manner and because character development is a driving force in today's stories, it seems that Lord of the Rings is lacking something.

Except, it isn't. :P It just takes some historical perspective to remember what it represents... and the lessons it informs us. Stories were written differently then, and the preference for character-driven plot will be replaced by something else and our books will seem archaic, too. But some will be so great they remain intriguing throughout the future.

Lord of the Rings was written by a World War I veteran who became disillusioned with the apparent progression of humanity. The fact that a war could escalate to such a scale, undo four great empires (the Ottoman, German, Russian and Austro-Hungarian) leave the vast plains ravaged and yet leave the world almost no different, no more equal, no more "great" was a turning point of history, and in how it is treated. World War I changed the idea that war was inherently "good" for people and that a lot of what humanity regarded as "progress" was actually regression.

Tolkien's stories reflect this attitude, and it's no coincidence that many of the horrific factors that shaped the world throughout World War II also influenced his books (given they were written during that period). Sauruman's rise in Isengard is at the expense of the natural beauty he once protected and admired. Over time, he grew indifferent to nature and soon sought to exploit it. It's interesting, though, that his aim was not to drive the wheel of industry and benefit the world around him, rather he turns to conquest; pulling down trees to fuel the fires of his armies.

The existence of orcs in Tolkien's works have unfortunately been tainted by white-supremacists insisting that Tolkien was advocating mono-racial policies. In fact, he detested racism (which was ground breaking given he grew up in the shadow of two nationalistic, highly racially charged wars). Instead, the elves represent the best ideal humanity could strive for and the orcs are the worst. Both are strong "races" in their own ways; one is wise, long-lived, conciliatory and largely lives without nature noticing. The other breeds quickly, fights constantly, plunders the Earth and uses aggression to solve problems. Attempting to use warfare to solve their problems was the eventual undoing of the elves; their people couldn't sustain war forever and it cost them their wisdom if their immortal lives were cut short through violence. In the end, the elves decided to leave the world for "undying lands," heavily implying that peaceful people are forced into violence or refuge if their neighbours are the aggressors. For Tolkien, this message was very real, as it was to everyone in the 1940s, as it soon became chillingly apparent what was happening to all of the refugees fleeing the Nazis who were refused entry into other European nations... :(

Tolkien also challenges the idea that history is an inevitable march towards a better future. After all, it's a constant theme throughout his story that life was once better than it was when Frodo and Sam set off to leave the Shire. Then again, it was also worse when Sauron was at his peak... but human greed postponed his defeat and evil remained. He doesn't suggest a cyclical view of history as, say, the Wheel of Time series does, rather he seems to contend that the impact of human agency on the world can be a force for the better or worse.

And, of course, there is the not at all subtle imagery that hobbits, the most overlooked, least appreciated and undervalued peoples of the world are the ones whose eventual actions change it. The bravery of the hobbits: Frodo's resistance to the Ring's power, Sam's outward optimism (that he later resigns himself to admitting isn't probable), Merry's desperation to fight despite his stature and Pippin's inquisitiveness in the face of pure evil; these are the characters who are the most human of all. And Tolkien very deliberately gave the most beautiful human qualities to characters who aren't even human, but treated as less than such by their peers.

My only real gripe with Lord of the Rings, as much as I love it, is that (and it's not unique to this series) there are only three female characters with anything remotely resembling impact on the plot: Arwen, Eowyn and Galadriel.

Despite that, the series is magnificent... and that's why it has lived on.

If A Song of Ice and Fire truly encapsulates what it is to be alive today, with the best and worst of human nature, the causes and effects of decisions we all make, and explores that with gorgeous imagery, then it may just well be another classic for all. I think it can do that, but it depends on how the story goes.

PERFECT! Have a cookie! :bowdown: :bowdown:

As for ASOIAF, if it is completed, then yes, it has the potential to become a classic on par with The Lord of the Rings. If it isn't, the current fans will just spend some time wondering how it would've ended and then be forgotten and hardly mentioned or read again, which would be a tremendous shame.

[Mladen]

That's a good point

What is this series supposed to be about? What are it's morals? What was it supposed to be in the end? What are we as readers supposed to learn from it? So far all it's been is that ' Yeah, a grim fantasy series. ..' That's it? Considering the so far trend of the series, it might be possible . I don't know, but this is something I'll be watching out for in the next books

Ok, has anyone actually the grasped the concept of social critique in ASOIAF? People usually focus on AAR, Melisandre and who will become the King of Seven Kingdoms, that they forgot, or simply didn't pay attention at some very powerful deconstructions and themes in this series. From the fact that with every chapter is showing us how bloodlines are basically less and less important, and how it is not important how or where you are born but what you actually do. The whole medieval concept of "born as a God" in politics have lived to be utter fiasco, from Viserys and Stark girls to bastard being ascended into a powerful position and Dany's mess in Meereen. This series has dedicated more time to social issues than actual fantasy stuff intertwining them into what ASOIAF is. So, it is not just another fantasy series...

I forgot to write my opinion of the show.

I think it will be remembered as one of the best shows during the television renaissance of our time. Its success will be a boon for fantasy series which normally never see any success on tv. Series like "Outlander" will be given a chance because of GoT proving that fantasy can be successful.

If it can continue in the way it has with great acting, writing and effects, I think it will be put up there with the other top shows of this generation. It will also very likely break new ground at being the first show ever to spoil the books from which it is adapted, and I will be extremely interested to see what ratings will be like when it starts breaking into new territory.

Perhaps as one of 10 or 15 shows of our generation. Furthermore, this series isn't making space for anything, given that we have some huge fantasy series waiting for adaptation. And why is that? Because ASOIAF is not just yet another fantasy series. The concept under which it is sold "Sopranos in Middle Earth" isn't something that you can use for lion's share of fantasy series.

[George48]

It is a bit too early to say what will happen to ASOIAF but I do think that it will be an important series: worst case scenario it will be brilliant but let down by the ending, at best it will be new beginning for fantasy in general, ending the era of the cliche-ridden stories recycled from Tolkien's works. It has a lot of potential and it's original so it will be remembered for a long time.

Game of Thrones on the other hand depends entirely on the book and even in the best case scenario it will be remembered only as the first adaptation of ASOIAF. The show is just not done well

[Mammoth Slayer]

I don't think that it really has a beginning or an end, just lots of stories going on. Even when a character dies, thier children and grandchildren will have thier own stories. The only way that I see it ending is if The Others are triumphant and wipe out humanity.

[Gregor Clegane's head]

To anyone who thinks the TV show won't go down as classic are simply being too harsh.

GOT is the first TV show to bring medieval fantasy on tv in a huge way, its got huge budgets, massive sets, huge range of characters with plenty of talented actors. It's also got some amazingly memorable episodes (Red Wedding, Blackwater, Oberyn vs Gregor), it's got incredible views, outstanding ratings and is considered HBO's flagship. How can it not go down as classic?

Oh and its fanbase is big. Really big.

[sj4iy]

Perhaps as one of 10 or 15 shows of our generation. Furthermore, this series isn't making space for anything, given that we have some huge fantasy series waiting for adaptation. And why is that? Because ASOIAF is not just yet another fantasy series. The concept under which it is sold "Sopranos in Middle Earth" isn't something that you can use for lion's share of fantasy series.

Being in the top 10 or 15 is still amazing...and of course, it will differ from person to person where it's ranked.

But I never said it was 'making space' for anything. I said that its success is making networks take another look at the wealth of fantasy series out there that would never get a first look because of how poorly the genre normally does on tv. In that respect, GoT is a trailblazer. HBO took a huge risk on it, and for once, it paid off. The success of GoT is why Starz decided to adapt Outlander, for example. And I'm sure we will see more coming in the future as cable and premium networks decide to devote more resources to finding new and exciting stories to adapt. I do agree that most fantasy series are very stereotypical and have terrible stories...but that's true of any genre. Every genre is about 90% crap and 10% good to great stuff. That's why I personally don't stick to any genre...too much shit to wade through to get to the good stuff.

But whatever a person thinks of the show, there's no denying that it has been a critical and popular success, and that it has opened up more possibilities for what can be done on television. That's what I think it will be remembered for.

[Cat of the Rivers]

Ok, has anyone actually the grasped the concept of social critique in ASOIAF? People usually focus on AAR, Melisandre and who will become the King of Seven Kingdoms, that they forgot, or simply didn't pay attention at some very powerful deconstructions and themes in this series. From the fact that with every chapter is showing us how bloodlines are basically less and less important, and how it is not important how or where you are born but what you actually do. The whole medieval concept of "born as a God" in politics have lived to be utter fiasco, from Viserys and Stark girls to bastard being ascended into a powerful position and Dany's mess in Meereen. This series has dedicated more time to social issues than actual fantasy stuff intertwining them into what ASOIAF is. So, it is not just another fantasy series...

But isn't social critique in classical novels set in the time where the novels were written? ASOIAF is a fantasy series so it doesn't show us much on a historical level and because it was written during the modern ages it doesn't have the impact and revolutionary thought that say, Leviathan (by Thomas Hobbes) has. ASOIAF already shows us the stuff we know and do not practice anymore. We as modern readers already know that bloodlines aren't important, ASOIAF doesn't impact our society since we already have the information and thought process that ASOIAF shows. We wouldn't marvel the same way as we would for John Locke's Two Treaties of Government because it was written during a time and place where the divine right of God was widely accepted and anybody who thought different was crazy or a traitor. The social issues do not and will not affect our society in anyway which is the value of social criticism in novels.

To anyone who thinks the TV show won't go down as classic are simply being too harsh.

GOT is the first TV show to bring medieval fantasy on tv in a huge way, its got huge budgets, massive sets, huge range of characters with plenty of talented actors. It's also got some amazingly memorable episodes (Red Wedding, Blackwater, Oberyn vs Gregor), it's got incredible views, outstanding ratings and is considered HBO's flagship. How can it not go down as classic?

Oh and its fanbase is big. Really big.

But the show's script isn't something I'd be amazed at. The direction isn't particularly amazing either. The actors' acting abilities range too widely and have some poor actors. It's a good show but I'd hesitate on calling it "classic".

[Mladen]

But isn't social critique in classical novels set in the time where the novels were written? ASOIAF is a fantasy series so it doesn't show us much on a historical level and because it was written during the modern ages it doesn't have the impact and revolutionary thought that say, Leviathan (by Thomas Hobbes) has. ASOIAF already shows us the stuff we know and do not practice anymore. We as modern readers already know that bloodlines aren't important, ASOIAF doesn't impact our society since we already have the information and thought process that ASOIAF shows. We wouldn't marvel the same way as we would for John Locke's Two Treaties of Government because it was written during a time and place where the divine right of God was widely accepted and anybody who thought different was crazy or a traitor. The social issues do not and will not affect our society in anyway which is the value of social criticism in novels.

I was answering whether it is "classical fantasy story"... I agree with you in terms of some impact, but that doesn't mean that GRRM isn't touching some very sensitive issues for even us. He is contemporary writer writing for contemporary audience. ASOIAF does deal with some issues we care about. The morality of the wars, or the use of nuclear weapons, exterior force changing the systems, the leadership role etc. Certainly we won't be impacted with Dany ending slavery or inheritance war,but that just gives us a fertile soil for some other discussion, few of which has something to do with the medieval setting.

[Gregor Clegane's head]

If shows like 24, LOST, Prison Break, Miami Vice and some others I am forgetting can be considered classic I am willing to bet GOT will too. By the way many people are already saying Walking Dead is classic TV.

[The King in Black]

Ok, has anyone actually the grasped the concept of social critique in ASOIAF? People usually focus on AAR, Melisandre and who will become the King of Seven Kingdoms, that they forgot, or simply didn't pay attention at some very powerful deconstructions and themes in this series. From the fact that with every chapter is showing us how bloodlines are basically less and less important, and how it is not important how or where you are born but what you actually do. The whole medieval concept of "born as a God" in politics have lived to be utter fiasco, from Viserys and Stark girls to bastard being ascended into a powerful position and Dany's mess in Meereen. This series has dedicated more time to social issues than actual fantasy stuff intertwining them into what ASOIAF is. So, it is not just another fantasy series...

Well said. A good point.

[King of the Rock]

Lord of the Rings is a fairly simplistic conflict between good vs. evil and you know from the outset who will win. Martin has created a complex world peopled by many fascinating, larger than life characters where anything can happen. He has taken the fantasy genre a huge leap forward by injecting many of the complexities found in the real world. So yes, I think that it will become a modern classic. The only criticism that I would make is that while some of the stories are fairly plausible, such as the journey of Brienne through the devastated Riverlands, some do stretch plausibility to the limits, such as the Death of Renly by sorcery whilst in the midst of his armed camp and the peculiar mix-up which resulted in Ed Stark being beheaded when it was intended that he should confess and be exiled to the Night's Watch. Overall though, I think that this is the best fantasy work written so far.

I fear that's why ASoIaF won't catch on like LotR. ASoIaF is still relevant because it's on-going, and it's in the height of it's popularity with the TV series, but most people don't like to get invested in stories that make them think. A lot of people I know don't like ASoIaF because it's "confusing" and "depressing", but love LotR because of it's simplicity.