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Lord Varys

New TWoIaF excerpt from the App [spoiler]

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@The Hairy Bear. Symond Templeton will most probably give in to, seeming Littlefinger is befriending him. Other things, there is no mentions of Lynderly or Waynwood from the Vale excerpt (although the Hammer of the Hill is slain outside Ironoaks, so their castle exists and therefore possibly them but could have been a nameless king). Lynderly is one of Littlefinger main friends and it sort of sounds Andalish.



So Grand Vale First Men conspiracy is a go? Remove Petyr Baelish and the Andal Arryns from power? I like it!


(There is a Grand conspiracy for every region these days)


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Is this excerpt only available on the iOS version? I'm running the Android version and this excerpt does not appear and neither is there any update available.


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Well, if I had known that Lady Forlorn was not supposed to be Valyrian steel... But better late, than never, I guess.



But unless Valyrian steel was a rather late invention by the Valyrians, they would have still been a possibility, no? Lady Forlorn being Valyrian steel is mentioned whan Robar cuts through the fake Falcon Knight's steel helmet - something a normal blade could not have done.



More importantly, the Corbrays apparently point to Lady Forlorn when discussing who slew King Robar. That would make little sense if they did not believe/knew that the Valyrian steel Lady Forlorn was the very weapon that was used during the Battle of the Seven Stars. That's essentially a dead end, and could only be resolved by having Yandel adding some commentary like 'the singers tend to identify more ancient steel swords with their Valyrian steel successors'.



But the way the weapon is described very much suggests Valyrian steel, not normal steel.



As to the unification of the other regions:



The Lannisters seem to have been in control of most of the West, but not yet of all their present day territory. And I would be very surprised if the Gardeners and the Durrandons were petty kings at that point. Especially not the Durrandons, with their super castle Storm's End.



The Starks had not yet subdued the Marsh Kings at that point, now, had they? And invading the Riverlands at that point would have been pretty dangerous because at about that time the Mudds would have been ruling most/perhaps all of the Riverlands, and Tristifer IV. was pretty powerful (although he only ruled at the time when the Andals had invaded/were targeting the Riverlands).



And the Southern kings/petty kings may have still controlled more people than the Stark Kings after they had subdued all the North. Invading the South would inevitably lead to undefended coastlines, and we know how that ends...



As to secret skills crossing the Narrow Sea, and such:



That would not necessarily be the case. In the real Middle Ages, certain guilds in Venice and elsewhere jealously guarded their secrets, and to make steel weapons, the First Men would have to have access to Andal armorers and smiths. And those Andals would first have to travel to Westeros before they could begin working for First Men lords and kings.


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@The Hairy Bear. Symond Templeton will most probably give in to, seeming Littlefinger is befriending him. Other things, there is no mentions of Lynderly or Waynwood from the Vale excerpt (although the Hammer of the Hill is slain outside Ironoaks, so their castle exists and therefore possibly them but could have been a nameless king). Lynderly is one of Littlefinger main friends and it sort of sounds Andalish.

So Grand Vale First Men conspiracy is a go? Remove Petyr Baelish and the Andal Arryns from power? I like it!

(There is a Grand conspiracy for every region these days)

TBH race doesn't seem to matter very much in westeros. House Arryn is proud to be of Andal descent, yet happily marries into houses with unknown or first men ancestry: Royce, Tully(actual origin unknown, probably from the andal period, but likely a mixture of first men and andal descent), Waynwood (unknown), and historically Targaryen.

TBH I think house Royce should be the new wardens of the east, Harrold Hardyng, may be next in line for the Eyrie but probably doesn't deserve the title of warden.

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Well Warden as a title seems pretty honorary to me. So Harrold as Warden wouldn't make much difference.



Petty kings wouldn't be Gardeners and Durrandons, but Mudd's weren't the only kings in ther Riverlands, so I don't know if they are truly that powerful as they only had the lands above the Blue Fork right? The Starks had total control (besides Marsh Kings) and that is an extremely powerful thing, the books have constantly shown how discipline is important in warfare, and the Starks armies would be disciplined I don't doubt, and squabbling petty kings can't face up to that.


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I somehow believe that VS technology was perfected not long before the Rhoynish Conquest. Rhoynish Empire was powerful in both steelworking and sorcery. The Valyrians should have evaded a conflict with them until they grew powerful enough.


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The Royces are just getting cooler and cooler. GRRM better not kill the remaining children of Bronze Yohn!


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This also shows that Starks weren't the only paramount House whose ancient rivals were still about and powerful. Bolton situation wasn't that exceptional, it seems.

I can only agree that it makes the Lords Declarant thing even more interesting, as well the recent marriage of Bronze Yohn's daughter to Michel Redfort. I have also long suspected that Royces are going to take over the Vale shortly.

OTOH, it is also possible that the impending Long Night 2 will be devastating and few of the noble Houses will remain standing.

I wish that Ursula Upcliff had actually managed to do something awesome before having her head torn off...

Now, what I'd really like to know is how and why the North and the wildlings (!) adopted the Andal language. IMHO, it was a mistake of GRRM's not to write the North and Dorne as having their own languages to begin with - the First Men language and a patois of Andal and Rhoynish respectively. With nobility and educated classes being bilingual to greater or lesser degree, like it usually happened in similar circumstances iRL.

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Perhaps there will be a retcon, with the Andals actually adopting the First Men language? Of course I don't know what the Old Tongue would become in that scenario.


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As to the unification of the other regions:

The Lannisters seem to have been in control of most of the West, but not yet of all their present day territory. And I would be very surprised if the Gardeners and the Durrandons were petty kings at that point. Especially not the Durrandons, with their super castle Storm's End.

The Starks had not yet subdued the Marsh Kings at that point, now, had they? And invading the Riverlands at that point would have been pretty dangerous because at about that time the Mudds would have been ruling most/perhaps all of the Riverlands, and Tristifer IV. was pretty powerful (although he only ruled at the time when the Andals had invaded/were targeting the Riverlands).

And the Southern kings/petty kings may have still controlled more people than the Stark Kings after they had subdued all the North. Invading the South would inevitably lead to undefended coastlines, and we know how that ends...

Well no. The Starks would have subdued the Marsh Kings before the Andals invaded, else they would not have been able to hold them back at the Neck.

As for the southron kings. It is not possible for a southron petty king to match the manpower of the entire North. The North is as strong as the Vale, for example, so unless the Vale is united, they won't be able to match the Stark power.

Similarly, unless a Reach king ruled at least half of the entire Reach, they would not match the power of the Starks.

We are repeatedly told that the Andals found hundreds of petty kingdoms when they arrived in Westeros. Since we know that the Starks ruled the entire North by the time the Andals arrived, the patchwork of petty kingdoms must have existed across the South.

Regarding the Stormlands. Unless otherwise stated, it is entirely feasible that the Storm King was just one of a half dozen petty kings ruling the Stormlands. Maybe the strongest of the lot, but very far from a unified ruler of the entire territory. The impression we are given is that apart from the Starks, it was the Andals that united the petty kingdoms into the Seven kingdoms we know today. Before them the First Men were fragmented into their hundred kingdoms.

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So will we learn who is this Merling King. Apparently he is a god, but who worships/worshipped him. Maybe he's a common myth, like mermaids.



Agree with @Maia, wish she had done something remarkable before her demise :smug:


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Well no. The Starks would have subdued the Marsh Kings before the Andals invaded, else they would not have been able to hold them back at the Neck

I am pretty sure that the Andals only attacked the North after exhausting all other opportunities, so it was likely centuries after their initial invasion started. The North has pretty much the least desirable real estate in the whole of Westeros, after all ;). OK, apart from the Iron Isles. As we see, conquest of the Vale took more than a generation, Ser Artys being a locally born Andal in his prime. And they likely encountered more resistance elsewhere, as people were more ready for them.

As to population, I suspect that in the North it fluctuates very strongly in response to climate, because there is a lot of empty space to spread into during warm periods, but starvation and die-off during severe winters can be brutal. At the time of AGoT not only did they have a 9+ year summer, but the last really severe winter had been the one of Tyrion's birth. So, for 20+ years they had short, mild winters and an almost decade-long summer. Population of the North was likely at a historical high, despite the 2 Rebellions.

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Agreed with Maia, invasion of the North would be late, after large kingdoms were carved out, not petty kingdoms, to take on a unified North, you would want power.


I to was a little annoyed about Ursula, but with a title that is the Bride of the Merling King she would definitely be notable, we just need to wait for the spin-off series Ursula's Adventures. Also perhaps she cursed all Tollets into a spiraling depression in future, to circumvent Torgolds erratic laughter.


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The Royces are just getting cooler and cooler. GRRM better not kill the remaining children of Bronze Yohn!

There cannot be many of them left - the heir to the house and maybe a daughter or two? Can't remember.

Anyways, have the American posters checked thier local Target bookstores? There's a poster who claimed they could pick the book up today (19/10) - So I was wondering if anyone else tried the same 9-days-early-dammit route.

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There cannot be many of them left - the heir to the house and maybe a daughter or two? Can't remember.

Anyways, have the American posters checked thier local Target bookstores? There's a poster who claimed they could pick the book up today (19/10) - So I was wondering if anyone else tried the same 9-days-early-dammit route.

The heir and an unspecified number of daughters. At least two, since one was married to a Redfort and Bronze Yohn wanted Harry the Heir to marry another one.

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The idea that right now there is a 'original First Men' vs. Arryns/Andals conspiracy going on in the Vale makes no sense whatsoever. Surely, after Ser Artys' victory, we should expect that the Royces, Redforts, etc. were marginalized and largely powerless, but in the present day the Royces are the second most powerful house in the Vale, and this suggests that the Royces are as much Arryns as the Arryns are Royce. We know from 'The Sons of the Dragon' that Hubert Arryn, the cousin of Lord Ronnel Arryn who continued the line after the crisis during Aenys' reign, had at least six sons with a Royce. And there would have been other matches between the Royces and the Arryns.



As to the population growth:



- We have the south-north-migration in itself (many First Men staying in the South, fewer going up North)



- This, in combination with the worse climate in the North should enable the Southrons to multiply much faster than the Northerners, crippling th North's capability to become as numerous as (some of) the Southron kingdoms



- Finally there is the fact that the Southron petty kings had no reason whatsoever to support the Northmen during winter. If there was a bad harvest in the North, and if the winter was extraordinarily cruel or long, 50-70% of the North's population could easily die.



Perhaps Yandel will recount some of the harsher winters in recent history. For instance, we have known since AGoT that there was a very hot and long summer during the reign of Maekar I, perhaps suggesting that Egg faced an equally long and harsh winter at the beginning of his reign? And the winter that began at the height of the Dance of the Dragons (on Maiden's Day in 130 AC) should also have had most dire consequences for the entire Realm, even if it was rather short, because the war should have destroyed a lot of the crops harvested prior to the outbreak of the war (especially in the Riverlands, the Reach, the Crownlands, and the West).



I've said it multiple times. The numbers as we have them refer to the population as it is in the present day, not as they were in ancient times. The continuous warfare, the general enmity between the kingdoms, and the fact that no united effort was made to plant and harvest to feed the whole Realm would have inevitably led to famines and death during winter, especially (but not only) in the North.



As to the Marsh Kings:



Who says that it is impossibly that the Marsh Kings were the first to threw back Andal invaders coming from the South? As we don't know yet when the Starks took the Neck, such a scenario is easily possible.


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Nothing much. The Corbrays are confirmed to come from Andalos, so they definitely follow the seven. It's still a mystery as to what religion the modern Royces follow. Could be the Old Gods, The Seven, or both.

On a side note, this would confirm that the Starks were not against marrying Andals since Cregan had a Corbray wife. Unless Cregan was an untraditional Stark that is, but the small info we have on him suggest that he was as close to a King of Winter as it gets.

Cregan had multiple wives though didn't? Could he have run out of options? It doesn't state what one he married first, the Corbray, the Stark or the Norrey. No kids from the Corbray though, may he have been old?

I can see why they wouldn't want to marry Andal lines though from this excerpt. Give them and inch and they take a mile.

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As to the Marsh Kings:

Who says that it is impossibly that the Marsh Kings were the first to threw back Andal invaders coming from the South? As we don't know yet when the Starks took the Neck, such a scenario is easily possible.

Ser Bartiums's story tells us that the Wolf's Den was founded thousands of years before the Rape of the Three Sisters, which in itself happened two thousand years ago, according to the Maesters. And the Marsh King was conquered by the son of the Stark who founded the Wolf's den.

EDIT

Regarding relative population numbers:

No one is saying the North would have had more people than the entire South. Ever.

But there is no reason to suggest that the relative population numbers between the North and the South changed significantly over the millenia. Meaning that the total population of the North today, compared to the total population of the Vale or of the Westerlands or of the Stormlands should be a good indication of how they compared in the past. Sure there would be fluctuations, as plague or famine or war struck one area particularly hard in one century or the other. But this would even out across all regions over the millenia, ensuring that the ratio remains roughly similar to today, unless there was a long term trend affecting one area which was irreversible.

So that means that if Torhenn Stark could raise 30k men 300 years ago, and Martin tells us the North and the Vale can raise roughly the same number of men, then it is logical to assume that the King of Winter - ruling all of the North 3000 years ago, could have raised as many men as all of the petty kings of the Vale combined.

Just like today.

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