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New TWoIaF excerpt from the App [spoiler]

Lord Varys

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There was the story of a lord Stark showing up at King´s Landing with an army, becoming regent, promptly executing a number of prominent people - and then resigning to go back to North with a small retinue, with few regretting his departure. And most of his army was left behind, some to join southern armies as sworn swords, some to be brigands.

Rhaenyra acceded in autumn, which was high summer for her rule. It would make perfect sense that by the time Lord Stark showed up on the heels of his Dustin Winter Wolves, winter was coming. And that the bulk of his army stayed to eat in the South.

Logistically, importing food may be harder than moving people to where food is, on foot. Then what is needed is the social arrangements to accommodate and feed Northerners in South in winter, and let them go back in Spring.

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Very interesting. Where did you read this story?


Just to add that I find it interesting with regards to the Lord Stark who came down to King's Landing and made it back safely to the North. Nice refreshing change.

The idea that Northerners regularly migrated South to escape Winter, well, that not so much. I highly doubt the Southerners would be happy with hordes of Northern refugees descending on their lands seasonally to eat their fill before heading back North again.

Nope. The North was on their own, and dealt with Winter accordingly. It was harsh, no doubt, but they seem to have managed well enough for the last 8000 years.

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It was indeed Cregan Stark, and he became Hand for one day, not Regent. We don't know yet who he executed, but we know that Aegon II was apparently dead at that time, Aegon III was crowned (or about to be crowned), and peace negotiations with the remaining Greens were underway. The North fought for Rhaenyra, so we can reasonably assume that Lord Cregan was another Black/the major Black with the biggest army in KL shortly after the Dance of the Dragons.

But since we don't yet know what happened, it is really difficult to say what he did there.

Source for this is a reading Ran did in Belfast.

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Well, I quickly read through the linked thread on Cregan's visit to King's Landing.

Nice story! He went in, kicked ass and took some names, then he promptly left for the North again. My kind of Stark.

In my view, the timing explanation of the Winter Wolves "rapid response force" vs Cregan's later, larger force arriving after the fact, is yet another attempt by Martin to elaborate on the theme that the North's army takes much longer to gather than that of any other region. And the reason he keeps weaving this theme into the story, is because he wants to lay the foundation for the new Northern Host that needs to be raised in the absence of the now abandoned 5 year gap idea.

Hence he wants to emphasize - through historical references - why Robb's host was only a small part of the entire Northern potential.

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On Lady Forlorn:

It is clear that the current LF is VS (from the textual evidence provided), and the older one is likely not. Thus, this is most certainly a parallel case with Ice. I.E the name "Lady Forlorn" was held

We can assume then, that the blow that sheared through the helm is an exaggeration, or a "mistake" made my the maester, as they assumed a VS blade would do what is described. There is also the issue that steel made way back when was possibly, if not likely, not as good as steel made "now", on average, which could explain why a non-VS blade could cut through a steel helmet.

On populations:

There are a lot of factors to consider when comparing army sizes from different eras, many of which have been posted here alread. One that I have not seen mentioned is the King's Peace, and this should be very significant.

Prior to the Conquest, the kingdoms warred against each other frequently, this is well known. What is not necessarily known is whether or not there had been any relatively recent and significant wars, which could serve to reduce the available men

Another unknown, in general but especially in the case of the North, we don't know the situation with regards to the weather... (or do we? my impression is that we don't but I could be wrong). We do at least know it wasn't the dead of winter, but it may have been close to coming (and known by the maesters) or recently passed, both of which would have an impact on population.

Torrhen could've brought the mountain clans in force (Robb brought but a few). He could've been a weaker ruler that didn't have a firm hand on his vassals, or a strong one that did. Just like Dustin and others held men back, the same could be true in Torrhen's time.

All this leads me to believe that there are too many unknowns for us to make any solid conclusions regarding those numbers.

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  • 1 year later...

I will say that "Valyrian steel" should have been removed from the description of Lady Forlorn. Not sure what happened there, but in any case, ignore it.

They came together as the battle raged around them, the king in bronze armor, the hero in silvered steel. Though the Falcon Knight’s armor flashed brilliantly in the morning sun, his sword was no Lady Forlorn. The duel was done almost before it began, as the Valyrian steel sheared through the winged helm and laid the Andal low. For an instant, as his foe toppled from the saddle, Robar Royce must surely have thought his battle won.

This one?

Because you later go on to state in that same chapter that the sword was recovered. Leaving open the possibility that the current Lady Forlorn is the same Lady Forlorn from the Age of Heroes or Andal Invasion (depending on how you look at that, i believe they were the same.). Being that the Andals come from the Cymmeri it would seem, from the southern grasslands, it seemed the Andals and the Valyrians shared a possible origin. The Rhoynar splitting off from the Andals sometime after they began their eastern migration. All of this seems to me to be sparked by religious groups leaving Valyria as they seem to have done in other later periods. Or maybe due to dragon riders holding all the land of Valyria, or both reasons combined. 

Edit. Also it made me think of the Dragon steel used by the last Hero. This all working into a greater thread i have connecting the Andals and the Ironborn along with Garth the Green to the Merling King.

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Let us make it clear: Were there VS weapons during the Andal invasion?


I don't think whether I can buy that.


Lady Forlorn of old might be normal steel. The current Lady Forlorn is a VS sword with an ancient name, just like in the case of Ice.

I was just recently drawn into this debate by some one else who refused to let me out of it with out seeing it their way. I dont mind debating this topic, but had to cut them short really as it was blowing up my thread with at that point irrelevant information.

I wondered about this sword, Lady Forlorn possibly being the same one as the original was allegedly recovered. This person went on a long rant about how NO! (very adamentlly) they are not the same. Elio clearly says that they are not the same and further mentions Ice as a parallel (using this thread as his example) that they are both just swords that had another one by the same name in the ancient days but are absolutely in no way the same as Elio points out about them both.

Here is my problem, unless due to the new changes and im not seeing certain text, this is all i see Ran/Elio post about it

I will say that "Valyrian steel" should have been removed from the description of Lady Forlorn. Not sure what happened there, but in any case, ignore it.

and then after some one else mentions Ice I see Elio say "draw your own conclusions".

By this all i took was that the use of the term Valyrian steel in that paragraph of TWOIAF -The Vale was an error and should not have been used. That's it. No more, no less. He neither confirms the current Lady Forlorn and the Old Lady Forlorn as being the same, nor denies it. He simply addresses and informs us of that word being improperly used.

That aside. That same paragraph mentions the sword cutting through two Andal warriors armor, one the wielder believed to be Ser Artys. This i thought just as telling as "normal" steel doesn't cut or "bite" through steel plated armor. At worst it dents it. Youtube it. To get past Steel Plate, its as Ser Jorah say's in the show, you need a point. You need to pierce or stab the armor. Yet that is not what is said, what is said is that they cut through them. The sword "biting" through the steel. This sounds very much like Valyrian steel, which is known to be able to cut through regular steel. 

Ice from what i could tell, most didnt think the Ancient Ice was Valyrian but rather likely closer to that of the Other's blades. Hence it's name, Ice. Which put it hypothetically in opposition to Dawn, the hypothetical original Lightbringer, again, hence the name. Unless i missed something, isn't this a very common theory?

Needless to say, isn't the debate about the current Lady Forlorn being the ancient one still open to debate? We just cant use the description of it being Valyrian steel as fact as that wording was a typo or error.? Please let me know, and ill let him know he can debate this further here with me if he'd like.

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