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War elephants?


Marcus Agrippa

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With Aegon's elephants coming- and historically I don't know how effective they would be- with 100 or so- is anybody excited to see maybe a Zama or even a changed up Battle of Asculum?



Also, what purpose will the elephants serve? It seems like they are a afraid of fire and where I originally thought they were aegons answer for the dragons... It seems like they will be just dragon fodder.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Asculum_%28279_BC%29


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Zama


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I'm pretty keen to see some battles where they use the elephants, it should be interesting.

The Westerosi have little experience with war elephants so I think that not only will they be effective, but the Westerosi will be very overwhelmed by their size and power.

Once dragons are thrown into the mix they will be disposed of rather quickly though.

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fire is an effective weapon against elephants and moats can easily be a obstacle as well. Open battlefields, they are slow and cubersome. However, if the Westeros lords and military personel are inexperienced against elephants, as they must be, they will be effective early on so Aegon must use them early and decisively before opponents get "creative" in the repulse of such huge beasts.


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The Golden Company needs something iconic and potentially game-changing to make them a formidable thread. I think the elephants will encourage other Houses to join forces with them -- I guarantee Arianne or someone else will remark the elephants aren't dragons but they are something.





Did any of the elephants land when Aegon and Jon Con did?





Yep:




The prince arrived to join them four days later, riding at the head of a column of a hundred horse, with three elephants lumbering in his rear. Lady Lemore was with him, garbed once more in the white robes of a septa. Before them went Ser Rolly Duckfield, a snow-white cloak streaming from his shoulders.



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fire is an effective weapon against elephants and moats can easily be a obstacle as well. Open battlefields, they are slow and cubersome. However, if the Westeros lords and military personel are inexperienced against elephants, as they must be, they will be effective early on so Aegon must use them early and decisively before opponents get "creative" in the repulse of such huge beasts.

Think GRRM is gonna give us some flaming pigs?

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No, none of the elephants landed with Aegon and Jon Con, but some landed before they left to take Storms End.



To the poster above, good call with the pigs, not even my professor of medieval history knew about that, personally I think he was a moron but still, flaming pigs were used very effectively to make the elephants trample their own men, as well as simply splitting into groups with paths between them because the elephants would rather not trample anyone unlike warhorses. I think they will be very effective in the first battle and then pretty much non existent. They are useless in taking a castle or a city, and they can be beaten easily if you know how. Plus, the fact that fire is an elephants main weakness is no coincidence, Dany has fucking dragons.


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Once the Westerosi work out that elephants can be spooked by flaming pigs, they'll be fine.

Although usefull for breakung infrantry lines and scaring horses. Elephants are slow and perform poorly over rough terrain. They can also be out maneuvered by calvary; for example Alexander at Jhelum.

EDIT:Beaten to it!

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No, none of the elephants landed with Aegon and Jon Con, but some landed before they left to take Storms End.

To the poster above, good call with the pigs, not even my professor of medieval history knew about that, personally I think he was a moron but still, flaming pigs were used very effectively to make the elephants trample their own men, as well as simply splitting into groups with paths between them because the elephants would rather not trample anyone unlike warhorses. I think they will be very effective in the first battle and then pretty much non existent. They are useless in taking a castle or a city, and they can be beaten easily if you know how. Plus, the fact that fire is an elephants main weakness is no coincidence, Dany has fucking dragons.

There was also a Roman general (Scipio?) who, during the Punic Wars, used Roman circus/coliseum elephants to accustom them to elephants. They combined that with training their infantry to step aside if the elephants charged, something the Romans had done previously.

I do not know if the latter tactic will be used initially, but smart commanders like Tarly, Stannis, or Garlan(?) might pick up on it later. Throwing elephants against the Bloody Gate or MC, especially MC, would be stupid. Weather is not going to be kind to those elephants. Would not be surprised if the elephants started dying a la destriers and coursers under Stannis. There's already 3 feet of snow in KL by the ADWD epilogue.

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There was also a Roman general (Scipio?) who, during the Punic Wars, used Roman circus/coliseum elephants to accustom them to elephants. They combined that with training their infantry to step aside if the elephants charged, something the Romans had done previously.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're talking about Zama. Everything about Zama involving elephants is probably total BS.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're talking about Zama. Everything about Zama involving elephants is probably total BS.

If it is, that would surprise me. I wasn't hitting the wiki on that. Actual legitimate published books by golly!* I might be off, but I'm working off of "Roman Civilation" bu Reinhold and Lewis**.

Zama might be false, but the Romans had encountered them by Pyhrrus ealier and had the same tactics, though they lost.

*seriously

** pretty sure it's that one. Was the one on my bedside stand. Doesn't mean it's correct

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The Reach has an army at Storm's End, and they likely don't know the Golden Company landed behind them. I can see the Golden Company hugging the mountain/forests-line until they reach Storm's End, then sending the elephants straight into the Reachman army. Much like how Jaime was unprepared at the Whispering Wood, I think Mathis Rowan's force besieging Storm's End won't expect an attack and will be overcome. If Aegon/JonCon are thinking of taking Storm's End quickly, the obvious answer would be the smash the Reachman army while flying the Golden Company Banners and then inform Ser Farring (the man Stannis left behind to hold the castle) that Stannis bought them. Once the gates are open, kill Farring/Stannis-loyalists and fly the Dragon banners.



I don't know what Aegon could do with the elephants after that, though. He could use them as packs(?) to carry extra food and supplies/give his horse greater flexibility and allow him to move faster to KL?



Or he could send them into the Reach/skirt around the Kingswood to ambush any Reach armies going to/coming from the Reach?


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If it is, that would surprise me. I wasn't hitting the wiki on that. Actual legitimate published books by golly!* I might be off, but I'm working off of "Roman Civilation" bu Reinhold and Lewis**.

Zama might be false, but the Romans had encountered them by Pyhrrus ealier and had the same tactics, though they lost.

*seriously

** pretty sure it's that one. Was the one on my bedside stand. Doesn't mean it's correct

IIRC the Romans drove off Pyrrhus' elephants with flaming *something*. I don't know where I read that, though.

As for the elephants at Zama being BS:

  1. Polybius and Livy don't know jack shit about elephant behavior. Example: They both say that Hannibal had to make barges at the Rhone for his elephants, who were apparently scared of water. Elephants are actually pretty strong swimmers. In fact, in his account of the Tagus, Polybius implicitly states that Hannibal's elephants swam across the Tagus with little trouble.

Scipio apparently scared the elephants with loud noises, shield banging, and trumpets. That kind of racket is a given for most ancient battles, so it stands to reason that battle-trained elephants should be trained to handle it.

Sidestepping away from the elephants, which is what ostensibly happened, would've only worked if elephants (with training and mahouts) could only ever go in a straight line.

It's stated that some of the elephants turned around and seriously wrecked the Carthaginian lines. There's a reason the mahouts carried hammers and chisels (even Livy is aware of this).

It's absurd to think that Carthage would have had 80 trained elephants available at the time. Less than a year before, at Utica and the Great Plains, when Carthage was fighting for survival, Hasdrubal Gisgo had none at all. There wasn't enough time between then and Zama to capture and train that many elephants. A smaller amount may have been plausible, but due to the previous reasons the number of elephants was probably 0.

It's very unlikely that they would've been untrained elephants, once again because Hasdrubal Gisgo had none, and if they weren't fit for his use, then less than a year later they still wouldn't be ready.

Finally, Polybius' account was written a long time after the battle, and after the destruction of all Carthaginian records. Furthermore, he was under the patronage of Carthage's destroyer, who also happened to be Scipio Africanus' grandson. If any part of The Histories contains historical bias, Zama's probably it.

Sources on hand (besides Polybius & Livy ofc):

Haywood, R. M. Studies on Scipio Africanus. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins University Press, 1933.

Scullard, H. H. The Elephant in the Greek and Roman World. Ithaca, NY: Cornell University Press, 1974.

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I said nothing bout smashing them against the bloody gate, tactically that would be stupid. However with the passes blocked by snow and winter come on. Eventually the Vale is going to get brought into this war.



Sansa thought that the wind in the Vale sounded like a ghost wolf and that the Eyrie would be a place for Dragons and Griffins. Sounds like Jon Snow, Aegon and Jon Con all vying for the Vale. Then there was the conversation between Jon and the Gold Comp Spymaster and whom mentioned that the Vale would make a likely ally.



Taking the Elephants to the Vale so that I don't know can reach the place might be a great idea. Unless they decide to take ship to get there and I do believe they are going to be hitting the Vale for support and if they don't then JonCon is an idiot.


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No, none of the elephants landed with Aegon and Jon Con, but some landed before they left to take Storms End.

To the poster above, good call with the pigs, not even my professor of medieval history knew about that, personally I think he was a moron but still, flaming pigs were used very effectively to make the elephants trample their own men, as well as simply splitting into groups with paths between them because the elephants would rather not trample anyone unlike warhorses. I think they will be very effective in the first battle and then pretty much non existent. They are useless in taking a castle or a city, and they can be beaten easily if you know how. Plus, the fact that fire is an elephants main weakness is no coincidence, Dany has fucking dragons.

Tamerlane used flaming camels

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