R+L=J v.110

[sj4iy]

So, it may not seem like it, but I'm still on my quest to come up with as many of the the clues for R+L=J from the text as I can find. I have AFFC below, and as you can see, it is seemingly the lightest on clues. If I have missed some from this particular book, please let me know. Thanks!

AFFC:

“Pyp says that Lady Melisandre means to give him to the flames, to work some sorcery.”

“Pyp should learn to hold his tongue. I have heard the same from others. King’s blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure. It’s nonsense. Mance’s blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown nor sat a throne. He’s a brigand, nothing more. There’s no power in brigand’s blood.”

---

“The dragon has three heads,” he announced in his soft Dornish drawl.

---

Her aunt had lied, though, and her father had failed her, just as Jaime was failing her now. Father found no better man. Instead he gave me Robert, and Maggy’s curse bloomed like some poisonous flower. If she had only married Rhaegar as the gods intended, he would never have looked twice at the wolf girl. Rhaegar would be our king today and I would be his queen, the mother of his sons.

---

When Merryweather failed so dismally to contain Robert’s Rebellion and Prince Rhaegar could not be found, Aerys had turned to the next best thing, and raised Connington to the Handship.

---

We have found silver cups and iron pots, sacks of wool and bolts of silk, rusted helms and shining swords... aye, and rubies.”

That interested Ser Hyle. “Rhaegar’s rubies?”

“It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”

---

"The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one.”

---

“No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.”

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

( I HATE THEM PLOT HOLES )

I wonder why nobody at Winterfell knows Jon's true parentage if R+L=J is true because there has to be somebody at Winterfell who rode with Eddard from Winterfell to Storms End.

Eddard did not go "from Winterfell to Storm's End" He went from Winterfell to the Riverlands (Stoney Sept, Riverrun, the Trident and who knows where else) then to King's Landing and then on to Storm's End. Even if he did bring some of his own soldiers to Storm's End with him, why on earth would they know anything about Jon's parentage? We know he only took six men with him to the ToJ and all but one of them perished there. Assuming that is where he found Jon, there is no plot hole there that I can see.

[JonSnow4President]

Consensus? Doubtful. I think Ben knew, and I think at some point Ben told Ned. Brandon died ignorant.

Do you know what happens when you poke bears? They hurt you. (or steal a picnic basket; I've never been clear on Bear-Protocols)

Well, my hope is that as a combination dragon/direwolf (a diregon?), I can outrun/outfight the bear I poked.

[UnmaskedLurker]

( I HATE THEM PLOT HOLES )

I wonder why nobody at Winterfell knows Jon's true parentage if R+L=J is true because there has to be somebody at Winterfell who rode with Eddard from Winterfell to Storms End.

Why would you think that someone who rode with Ned to Storms End would know R+L=J? It seems that the only people who knew that Ned was going to ToJ to get Lyanna were the 6 other people who went with him (all of whom died at ToJ other than Howland Reed), and it does not seem that they knew about the baby (although they might have). No one else that had been with Ned at Storms End would have any reason to know about ToJ and certainly not about Jon. One of the main reasons only 7 people go to ToJ is because Ned wants to keep the location of Lyanna a secret--and certainly no one else would have been given any information about a baby. Why do you think this issue creates a plot hole? Why would someone traveling with Ned to Storms End become privy to Ned's information about ToJ (other than the 6 he confided in and took with him after he left SE)?

[BearQueen87]

( I HATE THEM PLOT HOLES )

I wonder why nobody at Winterfell knows Jon's true parentage if R+L=J is true because there has to be somebody at Winterfell who rode with Eddard from Winterfell to Storms End.

What does SE have to do with it? All the men who rode from SE to TOJ are dead except HR.

Easy, there is not muuuuch info about it. Except some VERY IMPORTANT DETAILS ABOUT HARRENHALL.

-______- <---not amused bear face

[BearQueen87]

Well, my hope is that as a combination dragon/direwolf (a diregon?), I can outrun/outfight the bear I poked.

Goodness, did you just make a case for a Jon and Dany marriage?! And lies. No one can outrun the bear. It is known. Unless there is candy somewhere. Is there candy?

[Kingmonkey]

“Pyp should learn to hold his tongue. I have heard the same from others. King’s blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure. It’s nonsense. Mance’s blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown nor sat a throne. He’s a brigand, nothing more. There’s no power in brigand’s blood.”

This one's interesting, because of course unlike Jon, Mance actually has been declared a king (beyond the wall).

Could this be a little wink to the R+L=J guessers that having king's blood and actually being made a king are two different things?

[Ellfoy]

This one's interesting, because of course unlike Jon, Mance actually has been declared a king (beyond the wall).

Could this be a little wink to the R+L=J guessers that having king's blood and actually being made a king are two different things?

Well maybe but since Jon is associated with "King" often and not only King's blood, I think it is just a case of Jon knowing nothing.

[JonSnow4President]

Goodness, did you just make a case for a Jon and Dany marriage?! And lies. No one can outrun the bear. It is known. Unless there is candy somewhere. Is there candy?

No, just a Lyanna and Rhaegar marriage, although I suspect Jon and Dany will be married at some point. A fire breathing direwolf with wings and scales instead of fur would probably take a lone bear in a fight (this may be a dangerous assumption since you are queen of bears, but I'm relying on the bear cavalry coming).

[BearQueen87]

No, just a Lyanna and Rhaegar marriage, although I suspect Jon and Dany will be married at some point. A fire breathing direwolf with wings and scales instead of fur would probably take a lone bear in a fight (this may be a dangerous assumption since you are queen of bears, but I'm relying on the bear cavalry coming).

The Bear Cavalry is never far behind. Thousands of cuddly squishy teddys. It's terrifying, believe you me.

[Kingmonkey]

Well maybe but since Jon is associated with "King" often and not only King's blood, I think it is just a case of Jon knowing nothing.

Even Bloodraven can't see the future. Hints connecting Jon Snow with Kingship could be indicating blood right rather than fate

[Dorian Martell]

Hodor!

[Ellfoy]

Even Bloodraven can't see the future. Hints connecting Jon Snow with Kingship could be indicating blood right rather than fate

I wasn't only speaking about Bloodraven. There is a King theme which is really present in Jon's arc. It was pretty clear in the Jon Snow Re-read thread. That, and lines like "a direwolf would be a second life worthy of a King" (paraphrasing there) and stuffs like Mel asking Rhllor to see her king and getting Jon as an answer in her vision, can not only be explained by "Bloodraven probably know about Jon's parentage and is pro-Targ/Stark". I don't think that we should not consider the possibility of Jon becoming King later even if lot of people think it would be cliché. But the distinction between King's blood and King still stand: if Jon becomes King, I don't think that it would be because he is Rhaegar'son.

[Kingmonkey]

But the distinction between King's blood and King still stand: if Jon becomes King, I don't think that it would be because he is Rhaegar'son.

We're obviously not far apart in conclusion, but I'd say any foreshadowing of Jon as king works even if he doesn't become an actual king. The difference between what people seem to be born to be and what actually happens to them is a bit of a theme.

[Ellfoy]

We're obviously not far apart in conclusion, but I'd say any foreshadowing of Jon as king works even if he doesn't become an actual king. The difference between what people seem to be born to be and what actually happens to them is a bit of a theme.

I agree with you even if I think that "he did becomes what it was born to be (well not really because Jon should have only be a prince or a bastard) but not because he was born to do it" is still a cool theme, not a anti-troop but a subverting of one.

[addicted to snow]

All the occupants of the WF crypts! :drool:

Everyone in the cairns at ToJ too! :cool4:

It is very likely that Ned buried the bodies in Dorn to keep the bones (and a record of ToJ events) from the families of the fallen. Lady Dustin comes to mind... This is why Lady Dustin wants Ned's bones, so that she can learn how/why her husband died.

[addicted to snow]

Even Bloodraven can't see the future. Hints connecting Jon Snow with Kingship could be indicating blood right rather than fate

Bloodraven can see the future.

[addicted to snow]

No, just a Lyanna and Rhaegar marriage, although I suspect Jon and Dany will be married at some point. A fire breathing direwolf with wings and scales instead of fur would probably take a lone bear in a fight (this may be a dangerous assumption since you are queen of bears, but I'm relying on the bear cavalry coming).

I think that Dany will be very close with whoever resides in Jon's Body after its lengthy stay in the Ice Cells. But this Character living in Jon's Body will not be Jon Snow.

[addicted to snow]

So, it may not seem like it, but I'm still on my quest to come up with as many of the the clues for R+L=J from the text as I can find. I have AFFC below, and as you can see, it is seemingly the lightest on clues. If I have missed some from this particular book, please let me know. Thanks!

AFFC:

“Pyp says that Lady Melisandre means to give him to the flames, to work some sorcery.”

“Pyp should learn to hold his tongue. I have heard the same from others. King’s blood, to wake a dragon. Where Melisandre thinks to find a sleeping dragon, no one is quite sure. It’s nonsense. Mance’s blood is no more royal than mine own. He has never worn a crown nor sat a throne. He’s a brigand, nothing more. There’s no power in brigand’s blood.”

---

“The dragon has three heads,” he announced in his soft Dornish drawl.

---

Her aunt had lied, though, and her father had failed her, just as Jaime was failing her now. Father found no better man. Instead he gave me Robert, and Maggy’s curse bloomed like some poisonous flower. If she had only married Rhaegar as the gods intended, he would never have looked twice at the wolf girl. Rhaegar would be our king today and I would be his queen, the mother of his sons.

---

When Merryweather failed so dismally to contain Robert’s Rebellion and Prince Rhaegar could not be found, Aerys had turned to the next best thing, and raised Connington to the Handship.

---

We have found silver cups and iron pots, sacks of wool and bolts of silk, rusted helms and shining swords... aye, and rubies.”

That interested Ser Hyle. “Rhaegar’s rubies?”

“It may be. Who can say? The battle was long leagues from here, but the river is tireless and patient. Six have been found. We are all waiting for the seventh.”

---

"The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one.”

---

“No one ever looked for a girl,” he said. “It was a prince that was promised, not a princess. Rhaegar, I thought... the smoke was from the fire that devoured Summerhall on the day of his birth, the salt from the tears shed for those who died. He shared my belief when he was young, but later he became persuaded that it was his own son who fulfilled the prophecy, for a comet had been seen above King’s Landing on the night Aegon was conceived, and Rhaegar was certain the bleeding star had to be a comet. What fools we were, who thought ourselves so wise! The error crept in from the translation. Dragons are neither male nor female, Barth saw the truth of that, but now one and now the other, as changeable as flame. The language misled us all for a thousand years. Daenerys is the one, born amidst salt and smoke. The dragons prove it.”

I'm sorry, but of these 7 'clues' that you cite, only the 3rd & the 6th quotations offer any hint that R+L=J... I think you see dragons where there are none...

[sj4iy]

Okay, here we go: the clues for R+L=J in ADWD. As always, help finding more would be greatly appreciated.

ADWD:

Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it.

---

When Gilly entered, she went at once to her knees. Jon came around the table and drew her to her feet. “You don’t need to take a knee for me. That’s just for kings.”

---

“What do you see, my lady?” the boy asked, softly.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow. Whenever she was asked what she saw within her fires, Melisandre would answer, “Much and more,” but seeing was never as simple as those words suggested. It was an art, and like all arts it demanded mastery, discipline, study. Pain. That too. R’hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames.

Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R’hllor shows me only Snow.

---

Burning shafts hissed upward, trailing tongues of fire. Scarecrow brothers tumbled down, black cloaks ablaze. “Snow,” an eagle cried, as foemen scuttled up the ice like spiders. Jon was armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his fist.

---

He rose and dressed in darkness, as Mormont’s raven muttered across the room. “Corn,” the bird said, and, “King,” and, “Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow.” That was queer. The bird had never said his full name before, as best Jon could recall.

----

“A grey girl on a dying horse. Daggers in the dark. A promised prince, born in smoke and salt. It seems to me that you make nothing but mistakes, my lady. Where is Stannis? What of Rattleshirt and his spearwives? Where is my sister?”

---

Then Bowen Marsh stood there before him, tears running down his cheeks. “For the Watch.” He punched Jon in the belly. When he pulled his hand away, the dagger stayed where he had buried it.

Jon fell to his knees. He found the dagger’s hilt and wrenched it free. In the cold night air the wound was smoking. “Ghost,” he whispered. Pain washed over him. Stick them with the pointy end.

---

“You saw my brother Rhaegar wed. Tell me, did he wed for love or duty?”

The old knight hesitated. “Princess Elia was a good woman, Your Grace. She was kind and clever, with a gentle heart and a sweet wit. I know the prince was very fond of her.”

Fond, thought Dany. The word spoke volumes. I could become fond of Hizdahr zo Loraq, in time. Perhaps.

Ser Barristan went on. “I saw your father and your mother wed as well. Forgive me, but there was no fondness there, and the realm paid dearly for that, my queen.”

“Why did they wed if they did not love each other?”

“Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince was promised would be born of their line.”

“A woods witch?” Dany was astonished. “She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest.”

“What became of her?”

“Summerhall.” The word was fraught with doom.

---

Side by side the queen’s procession and Hizdahr zo Loraq’s made their slow way across Meereen, until finally the Temple of the Graces loomed up before them, its golden domes flashing in the sun. How beautiful, the queen tried to tell herself, but inside her was some foolish little girl who could not help but look about for Daario. If he loved you, he would come and carry you off at swordpoint, as Rhaegar carried off his northern girl, the girl in her insisted, but the queen knew that was folly. Even if her captain was mad enough to attempt it, the Brazen Beasts would cut him down before he got within a hundred yards of her.

---

A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well. Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker. After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon’s birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward.

---

Better for Daenerys, and for Westeros. Daenerys Targaryen loved her captain, but that was the girl in her, not the queen. Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.

---

Perhaps by now he should have grown used to such things. The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring.

The memory was still bitter. Old Lord Whent had announced the tourney shortly after a visit from his brother, Ser Oswell Whent of the Kingsguard. With Varys whispering in his ear, King Aerys became convinced that his son was conspiring to depose him, that Whent’s tourney was but a ploy to give Rhaegar a pretext for meeting with as many great lords as could be brought together. Aerys had not set foot outside the Red Keep since Duskendale, yet suddenly he announced that he would accompany Prince Rhaegar to Har renhal, and everything had gone awry from there.

If I had been a better knight ... if I had unhorsed the prince in that last tilt, as I unhorsed so many others, it would have been for me to choose the queen of love and beauty ...

Rhaegar had chosen Lyanna Stark of Winterfell. Barristan Selmy would have made a different choice. Not the queen, who was not present. Nor Elia of Dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided. His choice would have been a young maiden not long at court, one of Elia’s companions ... though compared to Ashara Dayne, the Dornish princess was a kitchen drab.

---

She will never wash the stain away, no matter how hard she scrubs. Ser Kevan remembered the girl she once had been, so full of life and mischief. And when she’d flowered, ahhhh ... had there ever been a maid so sweet to look upon? If Aerys had agreed to marry her to Rhaegar, how many deaths might have been avoided? Cersei could have given the prince the sons he wanted, lions with purple eyes and silver manes ... and with such a wife, Rhaegar might never have looked twice at Lyanna Stark. The northern girl had a wild beauty, as he recalled, though however bright a torch might burn it could never match the rising sun.

But it did no good to brood on lost battles and roads not taken. That was a vice of old done men. Rhaegar had wed Elia of Dorne, Lyanna Stark had died, Robert Baratheon had taken Cersei to bride, and here they were. And tonight his own road would take him to his niece’s chambers and face-to-face with Cersei.

---

“Allow me to give my lord one last piece of counsel,” the old man had said, “the same counsel that I once gave my brother when we parted for the last time. He was three-and-thirty when the Great Council chose him to mount the Iron Throne. A man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. Egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. Kill the boy within you, I told him the day I took ship for the Wall. It takes a man to rule. An Aegon, not an Egg. Kill the boy and let the man be born.” The old man felt Jon’s face. “You are half the age that Egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, I fear. You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born.”

---

"On its way home, no doubt. But these men and their ships are well-known to us. No, these other sails ... from farther east, perhaps ... one hears queer talk of dragons.”

“Would that we had one here [on the Wall]. A dragon might warm things up a bit.”