DeathYon Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 There's a lot of things that we don't know about the Others so you may want to take this with a grain of salt.Earlier today I was wondering how much of an impact Craster's sacrifices may have on Westeros and it's battle with the others. Craster had nineteen wives, and his tv series counterpart boasted to have had up to one hundred sons. I know this is most likely empty boasting, but it's not completely unbelievable. Throughout Jon's ACOK chapters (and shown in season four) it is implied that once Craster offers his sons to the Others that they are then converted into others shortly after this. If Craster has offered at least 50-100 sons to the Others then this obviously going to be a huge problem. We have only seen two (or was there more?) actual Others, as the brunt of their force seems to be the Wights, which are already superhumanly powerful. The NW got absolutely hammered during the Fist of the First Men battle and they were only facing wights, I can only imagine how screwed everyone will be once the Others + Craster's sons arrive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikkel Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Somehow, I doubt it. Craster just isn't important enough to play a pivotal role like that IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Wilfred Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 I think that the Others have enough numbers, when you include the wights too, that X amount that Craster gave over probably won't make a huge difference...I hope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morticia Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Seeing as The Others are dead so therefore don't age, surely Crasters sons would eternally be baby Others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 We don't even know that the Others seen in ASoIaF are actual Others DeathYon - the only way to draw any conclusion on them is to combine information from the show and books. If WW in the show are directly compatible with what the characters interpret as Others in the books, then yes, if Craster has had 50+ sons we could assume there are atleast 50+ Others and only 1 of those has been melted (books) shattered (show). Crater's actions may be very important to the overall strength of the Other's power. I think that the maximum wright troop size an Other can support is immaterial because of one very simple factor - if a wright falls, it can be risen again. If a wright kills something, it can then be turned into a wright. The wright troop size is very self sustaining, whatever the numbers are. I was considering the difference between a wright and a person raised by Thoros' power, also. Thoros can extend an individuals life. This may be a one host trick, because Beric passed the power onto Stoneheart. Even if it is more than a one host trick, the host body can only be occupied by the original mind (soul, if you prefer) that was associated with the body. There is no evidence of Thoros' power being able to put one soul in a different body. Once the meat is gone the soul and essentially the power is also gone. The wrights are sentient, as evidence by the ADwD prologue. Whether that sentience includes some of the original soul is unclear. Irregardless, the wrights appear to be able to operate independently of an Other in direct vicinity, though they do need the cold. As was discussed in a different thread - I think there are unique properties between a wright (dead meat) and Other/WW (live meat) and the Night's King (powerful live meat). The cold power (no, not the laundry detergent :D ) that is in all of theses things seems to be transferable, or even non specific. Remember Tormund described the Others more like cold mist? He would know, he's probably been closer to them then any other character we have encountered. I think Tormund saw more of what an Other actually is, an icy power that needs hosts. Living hosts resonate more of that power (Sam killed one of these, so its sad to think that Sam may have slayed a bother of the baby he protected). The catch, I think, is that the living have to be offered. The Other power can't occupy live meat without permission, via sacrifice most commonly. TLDR - yes, the more numerous Craster's sacrifices were, the more sources of Other power there is in live meat. Think of the wrights like mobile phones and Crater's babies like repeater towers. More towers, more range. I think Craster has done his part to both doom and save Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Seeing as The Others are dead so therefore don't age, surely Crasters sons would eternally be baby Others? I don't think the live meat 'Others'/White Walkers are dead. They may have extended life, or this could only be the Night's King. Either way, I don't think they are dead, I think they are closer to being possessed and imbued with ice magic. Wrights are dead but they are not Zombies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morticia Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Sorry, I was meant to say wouldn't the babies be wights? Can humans be 'turned' to Others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathYon Posted October 27, 2014 Author Share Posted October 27, 2014 We don't even know that the Others seen in ASoIaF are actual Others DeathYon - the only way to draw any conclusion on them is to combine information from the show and books. If WW in the show are directly compatible with what the characters interpret as Others in the books, then yes, if Craster has had 50+ sons we could assume there are atleast 50+ Others and only 1 of those has been melted (books) shattered (show). Crater's actions may be very important to the overall strength of the Other's power. I think that the maximum wright troop size an Other can support is immaterial because of one very simple factor - if a wright falls, it can be risen again. If a wright kills something, it can then be turned into a wright. The wright troop size is very self sustaining, whatever the numbers are. I was considering the difference between a wright and a person raised by Thoros' power, also. Thoros can extend an individuals life. This may be a one host trick, because Beric passed the power onto Stoneheart. Even if it is more than a one host trick, the host body can only be occupied by the original mind (soul, if you prefer) that was associated with the body. There is no evidence of Thoros' power being able to put one soul in a different body. Once the meat is gone the soul and essentially the power is also gone. The wrights are sentient, as evidence by the ADwD prologue. Whether that sentience includes some of the original soul is unclear. Irregardless, the wrights appear to be able to operate independently of an Other in direct vicinity, though they do need the cold. As was discussed in a different thread - I think there are unique properties between a wright (dead meat) and Other/WW (live meat) and the Night's King (powerful live meat). Coldhands is also a mystery that must tie in there somewhere. The cold power (no, not the laundry detergent :D ) that is in all of theses things seems to be transferable, or even non specific. Remember Tormund described the Others more like cold mist? He would know, he's probably been closer to them then any other character we have encountered. I think Tormund saw more of what an Other actually is, an icy power that needs hosts. Living hosts resonate more of that power (Sam killed one of these, so its sad to think that Sam may have slayed a bother of the baby he protected). The catch, I think, is that the living have to be offered. The Other power can't occupy live meat without permission, via sacrifice most commonly. TLDR - yes, the more numerous Craster's sacrifices were, the more sources of Other power there is in live meat. Think of the wrights like mobile phones and Crater's babies like repeater towers. More towers, more range. I think Craster has done his part to both doom and save Westeros.Thank-you for taking the time to reply.The thought of the Others that we've seen so far may not even be true Others is scary. I'd love to see some giant spiders.So the wights are like the soldiers and the Others are the officers? They tell the wights what to do, but if they were to all die/whatever then the Others would be done for?If all the Others/WW died would the wights just drop dead? Or maybe they get weaker and can be killed normally if the 'officer' in charge of that particular wight group dies?Maybe Sam uncovers information regarding the Other's chain of command. Once he discovers this he could tell Jon not to focus on the wights, but the Others/WW?Sorry for all the questions, you just seem to be a lot better at this stuff than I am. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Sorry, I was meant to say wouldn't the babies be wights? Can humans be 'turned' to Others? Speculation, from threads where a few of us Other lovers have discussed it, only if the humans want it. The evidence seems to point to having to sacrifice or offer the host to the Others, they cant just take a living body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 I don't think the live meat 'Others'/White Walkers are dead. They may have extended life, or this could only be the Night's King. Either way, I don't think they are dead, I think they are closer to being possessed and imbued with ice magic. Wrights are dead but they are not Zombies. Wights are different from zombies in that they have blue eyes and Others control them, but are they any more than a mobile corpse--ie, the perfect cannon fodder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 1. Thank-you for taking the time to reply.2. The thought of the Others that we've seen so far may not even be true Others is scary. I'd love to see some giant spiders.3. So the wights are like the soldiers and the Others are the officers? They tell the wights what to do, but if they were to all die/whatever then the Others would be done for?4. If all the Others/WW died would the wights just drop dead? Or maybe they get weaker and can be killed normally if the 'officer' in charge of that particular wight group dies?5. Maybe Sam uncovers information regarding the Other's chain of command. Once he discovers this he could tell Jon not to focus on the wights, but the Others/WW?6. Sorry for all the questions, you just seem to be a lot better at this stuff than I am. 1. No worries, I like discussing the Others. I find them the most intriguing aspect of ASoIaF. But I do have to go to bed now :D 2. Yes, I think the Others have been deliberately painted as scary so far, in both the books and show. They are scary form the POV of the people of Westeros because they are something else - they are Other. I would like to see giant spiders also, though I am not sure that we will, as they may just be the stuff of Nan's embellishment. 3 & 4. It's not clear but my speculation is that there is some hierarchy. When Sam killed the Other it wasn't with wrights, so we don't know if there is a flow on effect. Personally, I don't think killing an Other/WW will drop all the wrights, they'll keep walking - but it will take the cold away. Only the show has visually linked the Others to controlling the wrights, the book has not. 5. Possibly. 6. The Others are more of an unknown in ASoIaF than the dragons are - there is a lot of combining of things from the show and books to try and generate theory's on them - don't take any of it as proof. The show and books could potentially take the Others in different directions and then it's all out the window :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ummester Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Wights are different from zombies in that they have blue eyes and Others control them, but are they any more than a mobile corpse--ie, the perfect cannon fodder? They are more than perfect cannon fodder, they seem to be a type of cannon fodder that can re-sustain itself. But they are definitely sentient - one of them in ADwDs saw (or recognized) a warged person that they knew. I don't know if their sentience is individual or related to the Others for certain. And, I don't know (and don't think) that the wrights are being raised purely as cannon fodder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Sorry, I was meant to say wouldn't the babies be wights? Can humans be 'turned' to Others? I say no. Others disagree (no pun intended). Here's my Wighting Theory, if you'd like to take a look at my thoughts on the matter. But the babies are not dead. They grow while they are an other. We don't have confirmation that they become Others. The guy who used magic on the baby did not look like an Other, nor did the baby's appearance change to that of an Other--his eyes turned blue, but did his skin get all wrinkly and ugly? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 They are more than perfect cannon fodder, they seem to be a type of cannon fodder that can re-sustain itself. But they are definitely sentient - one of them in ADwDs saw (or recognized) a warged person that they knew. I don't know if their sentience is individual or related to the Others for certain. And, I don't know (and don't think) that the wrights are being raised purely as cannon fodder. Not cannon fodder so much as expendable infantry. Why get your best soldiers killed when you can send in grunts who are already dead anyway? They have some of their memories, but we don't know how much. I wouldn't give them full marks for being sentient just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morticia Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Ok now i'm confused. Everyone seems to have different opinions on the matter. :shocked: :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimim Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 They are more than perfect cannon fodder, they seem to be a type of cannon fodder that can re-sustain itself. But they are definitely sentient - one of them in ADwDs saw (or recognized) a warged person that they knew. I don't know if their sentience is individual or related to the Others for certain. And, I don't know (and don't think) that the wrights are being raised purely as cannon fodder. "She sees me," merely shows sight, not sentience. Recognizing Varamyr would show some sentience, but we don't know if that's what the wight is doing. Anyhow, that's why I said the "perfect" cannon fodder. They eat dead flesh, so don't need to be fed. They're very hard to kill. Others can apparently raise the dead, or the dead rise in their presence somehow, which means, as you say, the army's numbers are not subject to wounds, death, hunger, so long as they have a human army to munch through. Anyhow, I'd like both the wights and the WWs to be more complex than just zombies and bad things out to destroy humanity, so I hope you're right :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 No. That piece from the show is pure BS. Don't even try to base any theories about the books on the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m'lady Melisandre Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Craster is like a stone in an avalanche of rubble who just happened to kick in some more stones into it. No single person is culpable of any world-wide event. All of us - past, present and future ones - are responsible of the future shape. Same goes for Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 No. That piece from the show is pure BS. Don't even try to base any theories about the books on the show. My theory on the different aspects of wighting stands even without the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted October 27, 2014 Share Posted October 27, 2014 Ok now i'm confused. Everyone seems to have different opinions on the matter. :shocked: :lol: Just as GRRM intended. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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