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LordBloodraven

Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

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Well, the World of Ice and Fire seems to imply strongly that there was an affair between Aerys and Joanna Lannister between 259 and 265.



Some tidbits:


"Sadly, the marriage between Aerys II Targaryen and his sister, Rhaella, was not as happy; though she turned a blind eye to most of the king's infidelities, the queen did not approve of his turning my ladies into his whores. (Joanna Lannister was not the first lady to be dismissed abruptly from Her Grace's service, nor was she the last)".



"The scurrilous rumor that Joanna Lannister gave up her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of his fathers coronation and enjoyed a brief reign after he ascended the Iron Throne as his paramour can safely be discounted".



"It has been reliably reported, however, that King Aerys took unwonted liberties with Lady Joanna's person during her bedding ceremony, to Tywin's displeasure. Not long thereafter, Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister from her service. No reason for this was ever given, but Lady Joanna departed at once for Casterly Rock and seldom visited King's Landing thereafter."



I hate the theory A+J= C+J and I think it has been proven false. Although there seems to be an affair between Aerys and Joanna, it's unlikely that Aerys fathered any of her children. She was dismissed "shortly after" her marriage to Tywin (263 AC) and Jaime and Cersei were born in 266 AC. Tyrion, eight years later.



But the surprising and funny thing seems to be that the affair was consensual. Not Aerys taking "unwonted liberties" against her will.


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Well, this puts Barristan's "fire and mud" ruminations on how young girls are always drawn to fire into a new light ;).

OTOH, you seem to forget that Aerys had expressly summoned Joanna to court for anniversary celebrations of his ascension in 272, where he publicly displayed his continuing sexual interest in her. And Tyrion was born in 273. I'd say that it is strong hint that he could be their mutual child.

Re: the twins, we can't exclude Joanna visiting KL in time for their conception, since she visited court "rarely", rather than "once" after her banishment, but only the one occasion above is mentioned explicitely. OTOH, Aerys's whole behavior re: the twins, his envy of Tywin for having them, his refusal not only to betroth Cersei to Rhaegar, but also to make Jaime his squire, etc. all point out that in Aerys's mind they couldn't have possibly been been his children, IMHO.

As to Tyrion, we saw how Aerys blamed poor Rhaella for stillbirths, miscarriages and infant deaths of their other children and insisted that they couldn't have been his. The same would apply to Tyrion.

Finally, the moon tea. I maintain that it can't be 100% effective, because even modern contraception methods are not. Noblewomen do occasionally bear bastards in Westeros, after all. And Cersei, who started to sleep with Jaime prior to her marriage and must have had a steady access to the moon tea, still needed a "woman to cleanse her" after she became pregnant by Robert. I.e. in this case, apparently, the moon tea hadn't been sufficient.

The same could have happened with Joanna. She could have taken the tea after sex with Aerys, and then slept with Tywin a few days later, so when she became pregnant, she thought that the child was Tywin's.

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Well, this puts Barristan's "fire and mud" ruminations on how young girls are always drawn to fire into a new light ;).

OTOH, you seem to forget that Aerys had expressly summoned Joanna to court for anniversary celebrations of his ascension in 272, where he publicly displayed his continuing sexual interest in her. And Tyrion was born in 273. I'd say that it is strong hint that he could be their mutual child.

Re: the twins, we can't exclude Joanna visiting KL in time for their conception, since she visited court "rarely", rather than "once" after her banishment, but only the one occasion above is mentioned explicitely. OTOH, Aerys's whole behavior re: the twins, his envy of Tywin for having them, his refusal not only to betroth Cersei to Rhaegar, but also to make Jaime his squire, etc. all point out that in Aerys's mind they couldn't have possibly been been his children, IMHO.

As to Tyrion, we saw how Aerys blamed poor Rhaella for stillbirths, miscarriages and infant deaths of their other children and insisted that they couldn't have been his. The same would apply to Tyrion.

Finally, the moon tea. I maintain that it can't be 100% effective, because even modern contraception methods are not. Noblewomen do occasionally bear bastards in Westeros, after all. And Cersei, who started to sleep with Jaime prior to her marriage and must have had a steady access to the moon tea, still needed a "woman to cleanse her" after she became pregnant by Robert. I.e. in this case, apparently, the moon tea hadn't been sufficient.

The same could have happened with Joanna. She could have taken the tea after sex with Aerys, and then slept with Tywin a few days later, so when she became pregnant, she thought that the child was Tywin's.

Although possible, it is very unlikely and far-fetched. Given Aerys's humiliating remarks to Joanna later, it seems unlikely that she would continue an affair with him.

I really like that this theory was severely shot down

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Aerys humiliated Joanna.. Why would she sleep with him after that? The described behavior of Aerys in 272AC makes it unlikely, IMO, that Joanna would willingly sleep with him again.

Maybe he came to her to apologize and it turned into reconciliation sex? Or, maybe, it wasn't willingly that last time, since Aerys was fully in his "humiliate Tywin" mode by then.

I mean, why add all these details for no reason? Just to troll? If GRRM wanted to debunk the theory, all he needed to do was not to put Aerys and Joanna into the same city and castle in time for Tyrion's conception.

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I've only skimmed the actual book, but reading the above quotes say nothing about Joanna's willingness in any alleged affair. It could very well be a case of Joanna being afraid of saying no or being coerced by Aerys through threats to herself or Tywin.



I am not a fan of the Aerys and Joanna theories, but my first thought upon reading the episode where Aerys humiliated her at court was that Jaime and Cersei could well be his children. He talked of her breasts and while that's humiliating enough, it could be even deeper because she knew he had first-hand knowledge of her body. I am not citing this as evidence, but rather just my gut reaction.


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I've only skimmed the actual book, but reading the above quotes say nothing about Joanna's willingness in any alleged affair. It could very well be a case of Joanna being afraid of saying no or being coerced by Aerys through threats to herself or Tywin.

I am not a fan of the Aerys and Joanna theories, but my first thought upon reading the episode where Aerys humiliated her at court was that Jaime and Cersei could well be his children. He talked of her breasts and while that's humiliating enough, it could be even deeper because she knew he had first-hand knowledge of her body. I am not citing this as evidence, but rather just my gut reaction.

Well, Aerys is described as a womanizer. Not someone who forces women into his bed. Joanna was only one of his many mistresses and I don't see where it is even stated that she wasn't willing. Queen Rhaelle describes her as one her husband's "whores".

The text shows that they had an affair until Aerys grew tired of her. This did not prevent Tywin from being devoted to her, apparently

Maybe he came to her to apologize and it turned into reconciliation sex? Or, maybe, it wasn't willingly that last time, since Aerys was fully in his "humiliate Tywin" mode by then.

I mean, why add all these details for no reason? Just to troll? If GRRM wanted to debunk the theory, all he needed to do was not to put Aerys and Joanna into the same city and castle in time for Tyrion's conception.

Maybe...Who knows. But TWOIAF seems to heavily hint against it, more than the case for A+J

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Well, Aerys is described as a womanizer. Not someone who forces women into his bed. Joanna was only one of his many mistresses and I don't see where it is even stated that she wasn't willing. Queen Rhaelle describes her as one her husband's "whores".

The text shows that they had an affair until Aerys grew tired of her. This did not prevent Tywin from being devoted to her, apparently

Being described as a womanizer does not preclude him from using his position to pressure women into his bed. There were probably many willing women, but I can also easily imagine situations where the woman was less than willing, but afraid to go against her King.

I'm not saying it was one way or the other for sure, because we have very little to go on. I was just confused because the last several posts were taking it for granted that Joanna was a willing participant in their alleged affair. I haven't seen anything that suggests what either party felt about it, just that it supposedly happened. Just because it doesn't state she was unwilling doesn't mean she was definitely willing. And of course the Queen would see all these women as his whores - it would have been humiliating for her, she is not likely to look kindly on any of these women, regardless of the actual situation.

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Aerys humiliated Joanna.. Why would she sleep with him after that? The described behavior of Aerys in 272AC makes it unlikely, IMO, that Joanna would willingly sleep with him again.

I doubt Aerys got anywhere near Joanna in 272. But some people will ignore everything else and just see the 272. I don't think Aerys fathered any of Tywin's children.

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Well, Aerys is described as a womanizer. Not someone who forces women into his bed. Joanna was only one of his many mistresses and I don't see where it is even stated that she wasn't willing. Queen Rhaelle describes her as one her husband's "whores".

The text shows that they had an affair until Aerys grew tired of her. This did not prevent Tywin from being devoted to her, apparently

The text doesn't say that Joanna had been Aerys' mistress although it is very possible. Rhaelle didn't send to her back to Casterly Rock because she was turned into her husband's "whore" but because of what happened on the wedding that happened in front of all the guests. Thought it is greatly possible that Joanna slept with Aerys, it is not a fact for now.

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I mean, why add all these details for no reason? Just to troll? If GRRM wanted to debunk the theory, all he needed to do was not to put Aerys and Joanna into the same city and castle in time for Tyrion's conception.

:agree:

I'm not saying it was one way or the other for sure, because we have very little to go on. I was just confused because the last several posts were taking it for granted that Joanna was a willing participant in their alleged affair. I haven't seen anything that suggests what either party felt about it, just that it supposedly happened. Just because it doesn't state she was unwilling doesn't mean she was definitely willing. And of course the Queen would see all these women as his whores - it would have been humiliating for her, she is not likely to look kindly on any of these women, regardless of the actual situation.

Joanna remains a mysterious character, especially considering her brief appearance in FFC.

So far in the books there were hints about Aerys being interested in her, but we are not told anything about her reaction.

I agree that Rhaella would be biased towards any woman that Aerys was interested in (which makes sense if you consider that Rhaella was forced to end her innocent affair with Bonifer Hasty, a devout man. It is interesting to note that Bonifer regarded Pretty Pia, a girl who had been sexually abused several times during the war-Roose for example locked her in a lock and anyone could rape her- corrupted and he feared that she would seduce his men.)

It could be that Rhaella shared to an extent, Bonifer's views, but this doesn't mean that they were true.

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Agreed that this is a very strong argument against A+J=J&C :)

Not quite sure the times match up with with A+J = J & C, as I think Joanna was at Casterly Rock around the time they were conceived, I think. I will have to read again.

The book also tells that Tywin and Joanna were at Kings Landing for a period and then around a year later, Tyrion was born.

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Why add all these details for no reason? Just to troll? If GRRM wanted to debunk the theory, all he needed to do was not to put Aerys and Joanna into the same city and castle in time for Tyrion's conception.

Why add the details indeed? :P

Joanna might have only birthed Tywins children, but the details on the previous affair would show the exact reason as to why Tywin treated Tyrion the way he did. Not only because it caused Joanna's death, not only because Tyrion was "Lord Tywins Doom".

There was an affair at one point. Giving Tywin every right to doubt Tyrions paternity.

And who had all the trouble with pregnancies? Tywin? His twins were born healthy. Aerys.. who's many childern died prematurely or were misscarriages etc. Only this time was with the mother, not only the child

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Why create even the possibility of Aerys fathering kids by Joanna? Why even create any type of romantic relationship between them at all?

It is obviously for a reason. And that reason is Tyrion being a bastard Targaryen.

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Well, there are also red herrings riddled throughout the narrative. Some questions are more important as questions than their answers are as answers.

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:agree:

Joanna remains a mysterious character, especially considering her brief appearance in FFC.

So far in the books there were hints about Aerys being interested in her, but we are not told anything about her reaction.

I agree that Rhaella would be biased towards any woman that Aerys was interested in (which makes sense if you consider that Rhaella was forced to end her innocent affair with Bonifer Hasty, a devout man. It is interesting to note that Bonifer regarded Pretty Pia, a girl who had been sexually abused several times during the war-Roose for example locked her in a lock and anyone could rape her- corrupted and he feared that she would seduce his men.)

It could be that Rhaella shared to an extent, Bonifer's views, but this doesn't mean that they were true.

Well I think Rhaella was mostly hurt by Aerys taking one his maids as a mistress. She doesn't seem to have minded as long as Aerys was having his affairs with women not close to her.

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If anything, the information from TWOIAF fortified Tywin as the father of Jame, Cersei and Tyrion. I doubt Tywin would give Aerys any opportunity to touch Joanna. All the speculative questions are just there to make readers talk until the release of the final books.


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Bu the surprising and funny thing seems to be that the affair was consensual. Not Aerys taking "unwonted liberties" against her will.

Based on what, Rhaella dismissing her? You could as well say "Well Lysa blamed Sansa for Littlefinger kissing her and tried to kill her over it, that proves Sansa was consensually kissing LF." It's not uncommon for kings to use their position to pressure women of lower station (that would be most women in the kingdom) and for their wives to still see them as whores. You've seen 12 Years a Slave? And I doubt that every woman who slept with Aegon the Unworthy was willing and enthusiastic, rather than scared of what would happen if she said no.

Anyway, I think that all of Joanna's children were Tywin's, but that Aerys may have wished otherwise, and a part of his rivalry with Tywin was his resentment that Tywin got the woman he wanted. I think that whole history influenced Aerys' rather bizarre behaviour to and possessiveness of Jaime. The thing with Aerys keeping Jaime "hostage" makes little sense. Aerys may have been crazy, but you have to be an idiot to believe that you are keeping an able bodied armed man who is one of the country's best swordsmen a hostage by keeping him close at your side, while letting all the other Kingsguard go far away. And then Aerys even expected to follow his order and choose him over Tywin.

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