Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[chrisdaw]

Keep fighting it, the tears will just make it all the more enjoyable.

[Annara Snow]

Keep fighting it, the tears will just make it all the more enjoyable.

You're channelling Aerys?

[Mithras]

Well, there are also red herrings riddled throughout the narrative. Some questions are more important as questions than their answers are as answers.

like "what does it really take to ride a dragon?" :)

[Annara Snow]

Why add the details indeed? :P

Joanna might have only birthed Tywins children, but the details on the previous affair would show the exact reason as to why Tywin treated Tyrion the way he did. Not only because it caused Joanna's death, not only because Tyrion was "Lord Tywins Doom".

There was an affair at one point. Giving Tywin every right to doubt Tyrions paternity.

Tywin supposedly "doubted" Tyrion's paternity because he couldn't handle the truth - that he had fathered a "monster" like Tyron, instead of another perfect golden child (and indirectly caused his wife's death as well) who was seen by everyone as a punisment by the gods for Tywin's arrogance. And the fact that Tyrion was most like him out of all his children - he was so furious when his sister Genna pointed that out that he stopped talking to her. You'd think, if the reason for his dislike of Tyrion was a belief he wasn't his son but a bastard, that he would have been happy to hear a confirmation that Tyrion was extremely likely to be his. But no. I don't believe for a second that Tywin ever really believed that Tyrion was someone else's son - if he had, Tyrion would have been dead long time ago. The only reason Tywin even tolerated Tyrion and allow him to be a part of the Lannister family and have the privileges that come with it was because Tyrion was his son, though Tywin tried to forget about that whenever he had his golden Jaime secure.

What's hilarious is that the type and level of arguments used by the proponents of A+J=T are the same type and level of arguments used by one or two fans on this forum to argue the weirdo crackpot theory that Catelyn had an affair with Littlefinger during her marriage and that Sansa is his bastard daughter. The guy had a very public interest in/obsession with the woman, check; there were rumours she lost her virginity to him, check; most people in Westeros have no idea how Catelyn felt about it, even Sansa swallowed LF's story about him and Cat being lovers; there's no evidence of the guy being anywhere but miles away from the woman once she was married, but never mind, crackpotters can still believe he had an affair with her and fathered her baby who was not even her firstborn. check; the sigil animal of the guy (dragon/birds) has thematic relevance for the child/the child thinks about that animal, therefore it's "proof" that the guy is the child's biological father, check. If we didn't have Cat's POV to make this impossible, I could see more people arguing such a crackpot.

[LordBloodraven]

Based on what, Rhaella dismissing her? You could as well say "Well Lysa blamed Sansa for Littlefinger kissing her and tried to kill her over it, that proves Sansa was consensually kissing LF." It's not uncommon for kings to use their position to pressure women of lower station (that would be most women in the kingdom) and for their wives to still see them as whores. You've seen 12 Years a Slave? And I doubt that every woman who slept with Aegon the Unworthy was willing and enthusiastic, rather than scared of what would happen if she said no.

No, not only that. But the various rumours about Aerys and Joanna between 259, when she became a maid to Rhaella, and 264. She wasn't married yet to Tywin, she could have had an affair with Aerys during this time. Note that Aerys still had good relations with Tywin during this period, and so, there's no need to go after Joanna just to spite his friend. And the text implies that Aerys had many mistresses during his early reign, and she was just one amongst many.

The situation between Aerys/Joanna and Patsy/Epps is completely different. Kings can use their position to pressure women, but the other side is true also. Joanna and Aerys grew up in court; it's not like she's completely oblivious to how court life might be. Plus, she's from the richest family in Westeros. Not like Merry Meg.

[Lord Freypie]

Seldom =/= Never.

Like expected proves or disproves nothing, not even A+J = C+J, and even less A+J=T.

Just rehashing and adding some tidbits of info to things said in the serie.

[Moondancer]

You're channelling Aerys?

Was he taking interest in other posters' breasts? No? Then he probably wasn't channeling his inner Aerys. :D

[Annara Snow]

No, not only that. But the various rumours about Aerys and Joanna between 259, when she became a maid to Rhaella, and 264. She wasn't married yet to Tywin, she could have had an affair with Aerys during this time. Note that Aerys still had good relations with Tywin during this period, and so, there's no need to go after Joanna just to spite his friend. And the text implies that Aerys had many mistresses during his early reign, and she was just one amongst many.

The situation between Aerys/Joanna and Patsy/Epps is completely different. Kings can use their position to pressure women, but the other side is true also. Joanna and Aerys grew up in court; it's not like she's completely oblivious to how court life might be. Plus, she's from the richest family in Westeros. Not like Merry Meg.

I'm not saying that Aerys forced Joanna into having sex with him. For all we know, Joanna may have had willingly had sex with Aerys; or Joanna may not have had sex with Aerys at all (we don't know that she did). We have no idea how Joanna felt about Aerys or his interest in her, or what she did about it. All we know is that Aerys wanted her and made no secret of it, and that Rhaella sent her away. And as a matter of fact, we don't even know how Rhaella felt about Joanna, if she really blamed her, or dismissed her simply to keep Aerys away from her.

My point is: there is nothing in that quoted text that proves how Joanna felt or what she did, either way. Rhaella dismissing her is certainly no proof that Joanna was willingly having an affair with Aerys.

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

Seldom =/= Never.

Like expected proves or disproves nothing, not even A+J = C+J, and even less A+J=T.

Just rehashing and adding some tidbits of info to things said in the serie.

Hmm I am not into Lannister children are Targs theories that much.

But regarding Tyrion, Joanna was in King's Landing, around the time he was conceived. Joanna goes to King's Landing and around year later, out pops Tyrion. Aerys certainly had the motive to do it. Humiliate Tywin, desire for Joanna etc etc.

Still doesn't prove anything, but cannot rule it out.

I think most the resistance comes from the idea that if A+J=T is true, Tyrion has a better claim than Jon.

[Manderstark]

Why create even the possibility of Aerys fathering kids by Joanna? Why even create any type of romantic relationship between them at all?

To build the animosity between them as part of an explanation for Tywin's vengence against Aerys. At the beginning they were friends, then they split up probably because Joanna.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Hmm I am not into Lannister children are Targs theories that much.

But regarding Tyrion, Joanna was in King's Landing, around the time he was conceived. Joanna goes to King's Landing and around year later, out pops Tyrion. Aerys certainly had the motive to do it. Humiliate Tywin, desire for Joanna etc etc.

Still doesn't prove anything, but cannot rule it out.

I think most the resistance comes from the idea that if A+J=T is true, Tyrion has a better claim than Jon.

No he does not. Rhaegars son comes before Rhaegars younger brother. Not to mention that it is his bastard younger brother.

[Annara Snow]

Hmm I am not into Lannister children are Targs theories that much.

But regarding Tyrion, Joanna was in King's Landing, around the time he was conceived. Joanna goes to King's Landing and around year later, out pops Tyrion. Aerys certainly had the motive to do it. Humiliate Tywin, desire for Joanna etc etc.

Still doesn't prove anything, but cannot rule it out.

I think most the resistance comes from the idea that if A+J=T is true, Tyrion has a better claim than Jon.

LOL no.

If A+J=T is true, Tyrion, as a bastard, has no claim to anything. Not the throne and no Casterly Rock. Even if he were Aerys' younger bastard son and was legitimized (by who?), any son of Rhaegar would come before him.

The resistance to A+J=T comes from the fact that it's a wish fulfillment theory by people who want Tyrion to ride a dragon, and who are convinced that he can't do that without Targ blood (which is unproven), and probably also to make him a speshul secret Targaryen rather than a Lannister. It also comes from the fact that 1) it goes against the ample evidence from the books that Tyrion is very much Tywin's son and has inherited a lot of his traits (while having no similiarities to Aerys or any of the Targs), 2) would invalidate much of Tyrion's arc and his relationship with Tywin, and 3) would validate Tywin Lannister's self-delusions born out of his ableist prejudice against his younger son.

[Mithras]

What's hilarious is that the type and level of arguments used by the proponents of A+J=T are the same type and level of arguments used by one or two fans on this forum to argue the weirdo crackpot theory that Catelyn had an affair with Littlefinger during her marriage and that Sansa is his bastard daughter. The guy had a very public interest in/obsession with the woman, check; there were rumours she lost her virginity to him, check; most people in Westeros have no idea how Catelyn felt about it, even Sansa swallowed LF's story about him and Cat being lovers; there's no evidence of the guy being anywhere but miles away from the woman once she was married, but never mind, crackpotters can still believe he had an affair with her and fathered her baby who was not even her firstborn. check; the sigil animal of the guy (dragon/birds) has thematic relevance for the child/the child thinks about that animal, therefore it's "proof" that the guy is the child's biological father, check. If we didn't have Cat's POV to make this impossible, I could see more people arguing such a crackpot.

I can only :bowdown:

[chrisdaw]

Seldom =/= Never.

Like expected proves or disproves nothing, not even A+J = C+J, and even less A+J=T.

Just rehashing and adding some tidbits of info to things said in the serie.

It keeps the question burning, which can only be the intent.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

A couple additional relevant tidbits:

Tywin's Uncle Tion was apparently none too fertile. Ellen Reyne never conceived by him, but bore three children to her second husband, a Tarbeck. (Does House Lannister have a history of male fertility problems?)

Yandel states that he considers GM Pycelle to be far and away the most reliable source for the reign of Aerys II. We know that Pycelle was a Lannister toady for a very long time. The closer Yandel's account gets to present times, the less reliable we should consider it. It is certainly very pro-Tywin.

TWoIaF certainly increases the chances that A+J=C&J (or =C, or =J), or A+J=T, but nothing is proven one way or another. It could all be red herrings.

[Lord Freypie]

All the things maesters can describe is what public appearances or rumours were.

They state there were rumors, that may have been true or false about things happening between Aerys and Joanna.

If they were speaking about the twincest, they'd be stating there were rumours.

But if they were speaking about Patchface and Myrcella parentage, they'd be stating there were rumours too.

And if they were speaking about Cat secretly visiting Eddard in KL, the PoV of maesters would have been "Cat never set a foot in KL when he was Hand".

Personnally i'm 90% convinced that A+J=T is true, and 99% convinced that Aerys fathered at least one of the Lannisters, as if A+J = T was a red herring it's very likely to be there to mask that A+J=C+J is true.

But I don't see anything that may be said in TWOIAF as an evidence. Some more little clues to add to a very long list at best.

[Manderstark]

TWoIaF certainly increases the chances that A+J=C&J (or =C, or =J), or A+J=T, but nothing is proven one way or another. It could all be red herrings.

For me it is the opposite: TWOIAF decreases these chances.

[Lord Varys]

There are lots of hints in there:

1. Aerys was a charming guy, he seduced his various mistresses, he did apparently not coerce them into having sex with him. Especially not 15 year old Aerys in 259, the night of his father's coronation. That could even have been Joanna comforting the new Prince of Dragonstone after the Tragedy of Summerhall.

There was an affair, that much is certain. Yandel is only trying to dismiss those rumors because Pycelle does, and because Joanna was the mother of the present queen. Pycelle's quote about Tywin not feasting on another man's leaving is also nothing but fan boy talk. We know that he slept with Shae after all - and this, in his mind, was most likely some sort of payback against Aerys, with Tyrion serving as a Aerys impostor. We have to keep in mind that by robbing Tywin of Jaime Aerys effectively had made his bastard heir to Casterly Rock, and Tywin had to continue this fight even after Aerys' death (in ASoS, when Tyrion demanded his 'birth right').

There is also no hint that Tywin did not know about that affair - the premarital sex apparently did not annoy him all that much, it was the stuff later on.

2. Cersei and Jaime are clearly out of the game - a minor doubt may remain, but the relationship between Tywin/Jaime/Cersei and Aerys makes it very clear that Aerys did not assume or consider the possibility that the golden twins were his. And Joanna visited court seldom thereafter, and most likely not shortly after the banishment by the command of the queen. I'd expect her to return more frequently after Aerys/Rhaella's relationship deteriorated around 270s - if she lived long enough.

It is also implied that KL saw Joanna again in 272, because that is also the time when the twins are formally presented there. Aerys, of course met Joanna during his extended stay in the West following Tytos' death in 267, but that did not lead to anything.

3. None of Aerys/Rhaella's children are described in detail, but the chance is not bad that some of them were deformed the way their grandfather Jaehaerys was. Aerys did decree that none of his other children were not his, and that would have been precisely the reason why he did not acknowledge Tyrion as a son.

4. What we know is that Aerys made a mocking question about Joanna's breasts. That suggests that he was still interested in them, and it indicates that this could have been merely the starting point for something else - such as that Aerys took Joanna with him into his bedchamber. Tywin trying to resign over a bad joke does not sound right to me. He suffered much worse over the years.

5. Joanna as a person was most likely not all that much in love with Tywin since she had an affair with the Prince of Dragonstone and the King before her marriage. The fact that she supposedly ruled as Aerys' mistress immediately after his coronation could be a pretty big hint that Tywin's appointment to the office was caused by her, despite the fact that Tywin and Aerys and Steffon were friends since childhood.

[Mithras]

Hmm I am not into Lannister children are Targs theories that much.

But regarding Tyrion, Joanna was in King's Landing, around the time he was conceived. Joanna goes to King's Landing and around year later, out pops Tyrion. Aerys certainly had the motive to do it. Humiliate Tywin, desire for Joanna etc etc.

Still doesn't prove anything, but cannot rule it out.

I think most the resistance comes from the idea that if A+J=T is true, Tyrion has a better claim than Jon.

Regarding Oberyn Posioned Tywin theory, Oberyn was in KL around the time Tywin was supposedly poisoned. During his funeral, Tywin popped out some extraordinary foul stench. Oberyn certainly had the motive to do it. Humiliate Tywin, desire for revenge etc etc.

[Annara Snow]

2. Cersei and Jaime are clearly out of the game - a minor doubt may remain, but the relationship between Tywin/Jaime/Cersei and Aerys makes it very clear that Aerys did not assume or consider the possibility that the golden twins were his.

How?

If anything, the relationship between Aerys and Jaime could only make one think the opposite. By contrast, there's no indication whatsoever that Aerys ever said anything about Tyrion or took any interest in him.

(Personally, I think that Jaime is Tywin's son, but Aerys may have wished otherwise.)

5. Joanna as a person was most likely not all that much in love with Tywin

How would you know that?

since she had an affair with the Prince of Dragonstone and the King before her marriage.

You don't know that for sure either. And if it is true, I don't see how it proves that she wasn't in love with Tywin. We know nothing about how she felt about either of them.