Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[UnmaskedLurker]

Well, if A+J=T is true, then Aerys had the special gift of impregnating women he met for the last time in his life. Not that it proves anything at all... just, dunno, seems strange.

GRRM definitely wants us to weigth the possibility, IMHO.

But holy hell, if this theory is proven right, as much as I believe it, I sure hope that R+L=/=J. Your mileage may vary, but as far as I am concerned, two out of six (or only three, depends how you count it) main characters turning out to be secret Targaryen bastards is simply one too many.

Jon is not a bastard--Rhaegar and Lyanna were married. So only one Targ bastard. The real point is that the prophecy needs three heads of the dragon. These three characters need to be "of the dragon" for the prophecy to mean anything. Only one main character was known to be "of the dragon"--Dany. Introducing a new character (like Aegon) late in the series to be a head of the dragon just does not work from a literary point of view. So if you need three Targs and only one have been revealed--there has to be two more Targs. In this case, it is Jon and Tyrion.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

The affair between Aerys and Joanna did not change that, since Tywin remained a Targaryen fan until the very end. He even hoped to be recalled to court after Jon Connington failed. That does not suggest that he wanted to kill the dynasty...

He was. Jaime suggests Aerys asked him but he got not reply.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I guess, Jon is the only secret Targ in my book. Tyrion is a bastard, a Hill, and Aegon is a Blackfyre.

These are 3 very different scenarios IMO.

Wow. Coincidence that Martin has him assume the name Hugor Hill in Dance? I think not.

I never made the connection between the surname Hill and its use as a name for bastards in the Westerlands before. Whats more, it is also the surname of the King in ancient Andalos.

The bastard of a King?

[lojzelote]

I guess, Jon is the only secret Targ in my book. Tyrion is a bastard, a Hill, and Aegon is a Blackfyre.

These are 3 very different scenarios IMO.

Well, I do think he is a bastard and I've never understood why people tried so hard to prove he isn't since it doesn't really matter - his being in the NW and all.

But (il)legitimacy aside, I just don't see how George can pull two so very similar revelations and not make it look repetitive. I guess that Tyrion and Jon would have to have vastly different reactions to the news or something.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Wow. Coincidence that Martin has him assume the name Hugor Hill in Dance? I think not.

I never made the connection between the surname Hill and its use as a name for bastards in the Westerlands before. Whats more, it is also the surname of the King in ancient Andalos.

The bastard of a King?

:)

Yup, Tyrion the last bastard of House Targaryen, half-brother to Dany, Rhaegar and Viserys, uncle to Jon, and great-nephew of Aemon. Soon to be dragonrider of Viserion. Happy happy days.......

[The Wolves]

I refuse to acknowledge that Tyrion is possibly Aerys bastard because it's such a ridiculous theory that has no merit.

Everybody is not a secret Targaryen, I wish GRRM would come out and say that Tyrion is Tywin's son, the whole theory is bugs.

[LordBloodraven]

Tyrion is definitely Tywin's. It's my opinion that the 272 passage was just to make us speculate to death until TWOW. He's Tywin's and so are Jaime and Cersei

[Mithras]

Tyrion is definitely Tywin's. It's my opinion that the 272 passage was just to make us speculate to death until TWOW. He's Tywin's and so are Jaime and Cersei

This is something George is very good at.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I refuse to acknowledge that Tyrion is possibly Aerys bastard because it's such a ridiculous theory that has no merit.

Everybody is not a secret Targaryen, I wish GRRM would come out and say that Tyrion is Tywin's son, the whole theory is bugs.

To the bolded, Why?

Why is it ridiculous and why does it have no merit?

I have a thread on it that contradicts both of those statements.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/94455-what-happened-to-make-aerys-lose-respect-for-tywin-around-270-275al/

I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, I really dont understand how posters can say the theory has no merit.

[NoneofYourBiz]

I refuse to acknowledge that Tyrion is possibly Aerys bastard because it's such a ridiculous theory that has no merit.

Everybody is not a secret Targaryen, I wish GRRM would come out and say that Tyrion is Tywin's son, the whole theory is bugs.

So much this.

If Tywin had any suspicion that Tyrion was not his, I would think he would have been eager to be rid of him. What would be his motivation for letting him live his life as a Lannister if Tywin suspected he was not Tyrion's father?

As for it being necessary to have another secret Targ besides Jon to fulfill the "the dragon must have three heads" prophecy, isn't Aegon a dragon even if he is a Blackfyre?

[UnmaskedLurker]

So much this.

If Tywin had any suspicion that Tyrion was not his, I would think he would have been eager to be rid of him. What would be his motivation for letting him live his life as a Lannister if Tywin suspected he was not Tyrion's father?

As for it being necessary to have another secret Targ besides Jon to fulfill the "the dragon must have three heads" prophecy, isn't Aegon a dragon even if he is a Blackfyre?

He is a dragon (and will probably ride a dragon) but he is not one of the three heads of the dragon. Young Griff was introduced in Book 5--such an important role is not fulfilled in a series like this by a character introduced in Book 5. The three heads are destined to work together to save humanity in the War for the Dawn. YG cannot be one of those saviors. TG's role has been introduced as a foil for Dany in DoD 2.0. He will die in DoD 2.0. He will not be one of the heads of the dragon.

[lareine]

First, I must say that I enjoyed Aerys and all of his craziness. It was a fun read. And maybe I shouldn't have, but I really laughed at his outbursts. And yes, I need him to be played by Gary Oldman one day. He's the only one who could portray the madness.

I agree, I stayed up reading until 2:30am last night when I should have been sleeping or doing homework & reading about a more fully fleshed out Aerys was fascinating!

He sounds very much like Henry VIII, especially when he was younger. He comes to the throne young and dismisses all of his father's older councilors and replaces them with young men his own age, including Tywin. He's described as lively, enjoying music, dancing and masked balls, and the company of beautiful women, but he's also described as, "vain, proud, and changeable, traits that made him easy prey for flatterers and lickspittles." And all his ridiculous schemes! The one about building a bigger and better wall was hilarious!

[UnmaskedLurker]

Tyrion is definitely Tywin's. It's my opinion that the 272 passage was just to make us speculate to death until TWOW. He's Tywin's and so are Jaime and Cersei

Why? Very few people examine these issues like the people on the boards. I would suspect that of people who do not visit these boards, 99% would have no clue about any theory of A+J=T. So GRRM has put a lot of subtle clues in the books about A+J=T--puts in a clue in WoIaF that crushes one of the supposed arguments against the theory (that A&J were not in the same place so they could not have had a child)--and does this just to mess with his most loyal fans? Why--for shits and giggles? GRRM does not even visit the boards, so why would he plant all these fake clues about A+J=T? For what purpose? I don't believe he did it just to get the small fraction of his readers who visit this board to speculate down a dead-end path. Is that really what you believe?

[Ygritte]

I agree, I stayed up reading until 2:30am last night when I should have been sleeping or doing homework & reading about a more fully fleshed out Aerys was fascinating!

He sounds very much like Henry VIII, especially when he was younger. He comes to the throne young and dismisses all of his father's older councilors and replaces them with young men his own age, including Tywin. He's described as lively, enjoying music, dancing and masked balls, and the company of beautiful women, but he's also described as, "vain, proud, and changeable, traits that made him easy prey for flatterers and lickspittles." And all his ridiculous schemes! The one about building a bigger and better wall was hilarious!

And the whole Aerys/Joanna thing reminds me of Bessie Blount and Mary Boleyn. King's mistress, then gets married off to one of his courtiers, paternity always a little hazy.

[lareine]

And the whole Aerys/Joanna thing reminds me of Bessie Blount and Mary Boleyn. King's mistress, then gets married off to one of his courtiers, paternity always a little hazy.

Good point! Like Henry, he also seemed to get bored quickly with his mistresses and seemed to like to surround himself with'lickspittles.' Aerys also stressed over his 'heir' issues (or lack there of) too. And of course there's the obvious with both gradually descending into paranoia and barbaric behavior eventually, becoming monstrous versions of the promising young princes they started out as.

[Annara Snow]

Why? Very few people examine these issues like the people on the boards. I would suspect that of people who do not visit these boards, 99% would have no clue about any theory of A+J=T. So GRRM has put a lot of subtle clues in the books about A+J=T--puts in a clue in WoIaF that crushes one of the supposed arguments against the theory (that A&J were not in the same place so they could not have had a child)--and does this just to mess with his most loyal fans? Why--for shits and giggles?

How many people who don't visit the boards and don;t read and write about theories on reddit or tumblr or somewhere else are even interested in reading The World of Ice and Fire?

GRRM does not even visit the boards, so why would he plant all these fake clues about A+J=T? For what purpose? I don't believe he did it just to get the small fraction of his readers who visit this board to speculate down a dead-end path. Is that really what you believe?

What clues? :rolleyes:

Aerys having a thing for Joanna hardly amounts to "all these clues about Tyrion's parentage".

[Lord Varys]

Aerys and Rhaella faced not only dynastic pressure in regards to heirs, but also 'prophetic', although Yandel has not enough knowledge to discuss them. The promised prince should come from their line - and I guess they thought it meant one of their children, not necessarily one of their grandchildren. Rhaegar was good and all, but they would have known about the dragon heads, too, and they really had to make them.

[UnmaskedLurker]

How many people who don't visit the boards and don;t read and write about theories on reddit or tumblr or somewhere else are even interested in reading The World of Ice and Fire?

What clues? :rolleyes:

Aerys having a thing for Joanna hardly amounts to "all these clues about Tyrion's parentage".

I think a lot of GRRM will buy it even who don't visit the boards. He has a pretty big following beyond these boards, and quite a few would be interested in WoIaF.

Here is my best recollection of all of the clues (I am probably forgetting some):

Tyrion's hair color is closer to Targ than Lannister

Tyrion has mismatched eyes--one of the only other characters with this trait is a Targ bastard

Tyrion is obsessed with dragons

Tyrion likes baths that are hotter than usual

Tyrion is referred to as having a long shadow and one time indicated his shadow made him appear as tall as a king (I think there are other king allusions to Tyrion in other place but not sure)

Aerys was obsessed with Joanna and made remarks at the bedding

Aerys and Joanna are stated to have been in the same location at a time that could have been the time of Tyrion's conception

Tyrion, Dany and Jon have many similarities (death of mother in childbirth--outsiders--death of lover--leadership positions--etc.) suggesting they are linked, perhaps as the three heads of the dragon, suggesting strong Targ heritage (not just a "drop" of Targ blood)

Tyrion chooses the fake name of Hugar Hill (a king's first name and bastard last name)

[Faint]

The point is, neither of the theories associated with this relationship will ever be definitively proved or discounted one way or the other.

These arguments will just continue to be rehashed over and over again. There is equal evidence on both sides and none of it is unimpeachable.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The point is, neither of the theories associated with this relationship will ever be definitively proved or discounted one way or the other.

These arguments will just continue to be rehashed over and over again. There is equal evidence on both sides and none of it is unimpeachable.

If A+J=T, it will be revealed. We might have to wait for the final book (Book 7, hopefully series won't go to a Book 8), but if A+J=T, it is important and will be revealed. So if not revealed by the end, then it was a dead-end theory. If it is revealed--well then it was revealed as true. Until then, I agree that the arguments will continue to be rehashed.