Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[lareine]

Aerys and Rhaella faced not only dynastic pressure in regards to heirs, but also 'prophetic', although Yandel has not enough knowledge to discuss them. The promised prince should come from their line - and I guess they thought it meant one of their children, not necessarily one of their grandchildren. Rhaegar was good and all, but they would have known about the dragon heads, too, and they really had to make them.

It sounds like they really did try! I counted a total of 3 miscarriages, 2 stillbirths and 2 babies that didn't live past one year. That's pretty awful...

[Faint]

If A+J=T, it will be revealed. We might have to wait for the final book (Book 7, hopefully series won't go to a Book 8), but if A+J=T, it is important and will be revealed. So if not revealed by the end, then it was a dead-end theory. If it is revealed--well then it was revealed as true. Until then, I agree that the arguments will continue to be rehashed.

I doubt that. It might be strongly suspected, especially if Tyrion becomes a dragon rider. But there will never be definitive proof. Such a thing probably does not even exist anymore. Joanna, Aerys and Tywin are all dead, and only the first of the three would unquestionably know.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I doubt that. It might be strongly suspected, especially if Tyrion becomes a dragon rider. But there will never be definitive proof. Such a thing probably does not even exist anymore. Joanna, Aerys and Tywin are all dead, and only the first of three would unquestionably know.

You forget about Selmy--he was KG at the time and might have been outside the door during the "action". If A+J=T, GRRM will have a way for the readers to learn about it in a way that leaves little doubt.

[Faint]

You forget about Selmy--he was KG at the time and might have been outside the door during the "action". If A+J=T, GRRM will have a way for the readers to learn about it in a way that leaves little doubt.

That is hardly conclusive besides being something I very much doubt will ever come out in any fashion. Barristan Selmy, as it is, was only a late and reluctant edition as a point-of-view character.

[Annara Snow]

I think a lot of GRRM will buy it even who don't visit the boards. He has a pretty big following beyond these boards, and quite a few would be interested in WoIaF.

Here is my best recollection of all of the clues (I am probably forgetting some):

Tyrion's hair color is closer to Targ than Lannister

Tyrion has mismatched eyes--one of the only other characters with this trait is a Targ bastard

Tyrion is obsessed with dragons

Tyrion likes baths that are hotter than usual

Tyrion is referred to as having a long shadow and one time indicated his shadow made him appear as tall as a king (I think there are other king allusions to Tyrion in other place but not sure)

Aerys was obsessed with Joanna and made remarks at the bedding

Aerys and Joanna are stated to have been in the same location at a time that could have been the time of Tyrion's conception

Tyrion, Dany and Jon have many similarities (death of mother in childbirth--outsiders--death of lover--leadership positions--etc.) suggesting they are linked, perhaps as the three heads of the dragon, suggesting strong Targ heritage (not just a "drop" of Targ blood)

Tyrion chooses the fake name of Hugar Hill (a king's first name and bastard last name)

Blonde and black hair is close to Targ silver hair than just blonde hair?!

I don't consider most of these clues anyone would consider unless you're really looking hard to justify A+J=T. I'm also unaware of the same location thing, but I'll take your word for it since I don't have TWOIAF yet. For instance, Arya also thinks about dragons multiple times, yet no one thinks she is a Targ descendant. I could list much stronger clues from the books that Cersei and Jaime (and Joffrey, by extension) are Aerys' children (though I don't think that theory is true, either). Those clues are also much weaker than the clues that Tyrion is definitely Tywin's son.

The supposed clue about Tyrion's shadow being as long as a king is particularly weak. If Tyrion is a bastard son of Aerys (and he can only be his bastard son, not his trueborn son), he has no claim to the throne, or to anything else. Unless it were to become known and he's legitimized - and even then, it's unclear if that would give him a stronger claim than Dany (the position of legitimized bastards is murky, if they come after all trueborn children or not, maybe TWOIAF can help with this a bit?) and it wouldn't give him a stronger claim than Jon if Jon is trueborn, or legitimized bastard, and released from his vows. But let's see, under the hypothesis that Tyrion is Aerys' bastard, who exactly would legitimize Tyrion, or for that matter Jon, or anyone else who's revealed as a bastard Targ descendant?

- Dany, after she takes the throne? Why would she do that? To give herself a rival who could challenge her claim to the throne?

- Aegon, after he takes the throne? Why would he do that? Especially if Tyrion is Dany's ally? But even if he's fAegon's ally, I don't see what motive he'd have to legitimize Tyrion if A+J=T, or Jaime if A+J=J=C, or Jon if R+L=bastard J, or Random Whoever if Aerys + Random Woman = Random Whoever? In addition to this, if he's revealed as fake, his legitimization is illegitimate and doesn't count. If he's really Rhaegar's son (which I don't believe any more than I believe that Tyrion is Aerys'), he's got the best claim, so he'd have to be Rhaegar's son, become a king, legitimize Tyrion or Random Whoever, proclaim him his heir, and die, for Tyrion or Random Whoever to become king.

- Jon Snow, after he is revealed as a trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, is released from his NW vows, becomes king, decides to legitimize Tyrion or Random Whoever who has been revealed as Aerys' bastard, makes him his heir, and dies. See the previous entry.

All those seem extremely contrived and unlikely.

- Stannis or Tommen, because.... I don't know, they'd just love to have a Targaryen around, or they have lost their minds? :P LOL Nope. Not that the legitimization by 'usurpers' would mean a thing to a Targ supporter anyway.

[UnmaskedLurker]

That is hardly conclusive besides being something I very much doubt will ever come out in any fashion. Barristan Selmy, as it is, was only a late and reluctant edition as a point-of-view character.

Selmy is just one possibility. The main point is that GRRM is the author--he can invent any way of providing proof that he wants. If A+J=T, it will be an important plot point, which means it has to become known in some fashion. If it never becomes known to the readers, then it did not happen. That is how these type of stories are written. It is fiction--where the important plot twists are eventually revealed to the readers.

[Mithras]

It sounds like they really did try! I counted a total of 3 miscarriages, 2 stillbirths and 2 babies that didn't live past one year. That's pretty awful...

Citadel conspiracy? Involvement of Pycelle?

[Anath]

The interesting bit to me was that after being dismissed by Rhaella, Joanna visited court "seldom", not "never". Leaves some opportunities. Not that I believe Tyrion isn't Tywin's. I believe he is. But as to the rumours of Aerys and Joanna having an affair early on, I cannot forget that Pycelle volunteered some of the information. Not exactly an unbiased source.

[Mladen]

I am, in all sincerity, dumbfounded with the lack of logic among the ranks of people who believe in this theory. This is like Howland Reed= High Septon all over again. The theory is taking all scenarios as one, not seeing how story changes when these differences are accounted. I mean, the story drastically changes if you move from affair to rape and vice versa... But, no, theorists put all of that under one giant umbrella, completely negating the plain lapse of logic by doing so. Most importantly, the scene we got from WOIAF is enough to conclude this. Public humiliation in front of her children. If that is a foreplay, then I have to laugh... If it is rape, then the child is then most likely not wanted and solution is easy. From whichever end you come to this, it is flawed. Some people are adamant in their desire to see just the time frame completely forgetting what actually happened.

[Anath]

It sounds like they really did try! I counted a total of 3 miscarriages, 2 stillbirths and 2 babies that didn't live past one year. That's pretty awful...

Actually, it seems like this was one of the things that further triggered Aerys' madness. In the beginning, Rhaella apparently wasn't scared of him - she did get her way and dismissed his mistresses from her service, as well as publicly claimed that she didn't approve of his behavior. And he comforted her over the losses. But with mental illness, you just need a strong enough trigger and Aerys did have more than one, his own character flaws included.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Blonde and black hair is close to Targ silver hair than just blonde hair?!

I don't consider most of these clues anyone would consider unless you're really looking hard to justify A+J=T. I'm also unaware of the same location thing, but I'll take your word for it since I don't have TWOIAF yet. For instance, Arya also thinks about dragons multiple times, yet no one thinks she is a Targ descendant. I could list much stronger clues from the books that Cersei and Jaime (and Joffrey, by extension) are Aerys' children (though I don't think that theory is true, either). Those clues are also much weaker than the clues that Tyrion is definitely Tywin's son.

The supposed clue about Tyrion's shadow being as long as a king is particularly weak. If Tyrion is a bastard son of Aerys (and he can only be his bastard son, not his trueborn son), he has no claim to the throne, or to anything else. Unless it were to become known and he's legitimized - and even then, it's unclear if that would give him a stronger claim than Dany (the position of legitimized bastards is murky, if they come after all trueborn children or not, maybe TWOIAF can help with this a bit?) and it wouldn't give him a stronger claim than Jon if Jon is trueborn, or legitimized bastard, and released from his vows. But let's see, under the hypothesis that Tyrion is Aerys' bastard, who exactly would legitimize Tyrion, or for that matter Jon, or anyone else who's revealed as a bastard Targ descendant?

- Dany, after she takes the throne? Why would she do that? To give herself a rival who could challenge her claim to the throne?

- Aegon, after he takes the throne? Why would he do that? Especially if Tyrion is Dany's ally? But even if he's fAegon's ally, I don't see what motive he'd have to legitimize him, or Jaime if A+J=J=C, or Jon if he's Rhaegar's bastard son, Random Whoever who's revealed as a bastard son of Aerys or some other Targaryen? In addition to this, if he's revealed as fake, his legitimization is illegitimate and doesn't count. If he's really Rhaegar's son (which I don't believe any more than I believe that Tyrion is Aerys'), he's got the best claim, so he'd have to be Rhaegar's son, become a king, legitimize Tyrion or Random Whoever, proclaim him his heir, and die, for Tyrion or Random Whoever to become king.

- Jon Snow, after he is revealed as a trueborn son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, is released from his NW vows, becomes king, decides to legitimize Tyrion or Random Whoever who has been revealed as Aerys' bastard, makes him his heir, and dies. See the previous entry.

All those seem extremely contrived and unlikely.

- Stannis or Tommen, because.... I don't know, they'd just love to have a Targaryen around, or they have lost their minds? :P LOL Nope. Not that the legitimization by 'usurpers' would mean a thing to a Targ supporter anyway.

You are completely misunderstanding my basic point. But before I address that, I will clarify that most of Tyrion's hair is pale blond--almost white. This color is closer to Targ silver than the traditional blond color of the Lannisters. But my main point is that each of these pieces of evidence, in isolation, proves nothing--I have admitted that. There is not more evidence for A+J=C+J. There is not more evidence for Tyrion being the biological son of Tywin--evidence that Tyrion is the "spiritual" son of Tywin but not biological son.

The issue of legitimacy is irrelevant. I am not claiming Tyrion has a claim to the throne or is a king. The shadow is an indication of the blood of a king--not that he is a king. Again, it is just a clue. In isolation, it means nothing--it is only when viewed with the other clues that it seems to suggest A+J=T. The point is to look at all of these clues and ask why GRRM put them in the book.

[lareine]

Citadel conspiracy? Involvement of Pycelle?

Well, Aerys & Rhaella are brother & sister and are themselves the offspring of a brother & sister; that fact alone doesn't make for very healthy children.

[Bael's Bastard]

The interesting bit to me was that after being dismissed by Rhaella, Joanna visited court "seldom", not "never". Leaves some opportunities. Not that I believe Tyrion isn't Tywin's. I believe he is. But as to the rumours of Aerys and Joanna having an affair early on, I cannot forget that Pycelle volunteered some of the information. Not exactly an unbiased source.

Visited court or visited KL? IIRC Aerys also brought the court to CR and Lannisport for half a year or so after Tytos died (don't recall if Cersei and Jaime had been born yet).

[Faint]

Selmy is just one possibility. The main point is that GRRM is the author--he can invent any way of providing proof that he wants. If A+J=T, it will be an important plot point, which means it has to become known in some fashion. If it never becomes known to the readers, then it did not happen. That is how these type of stories are written. It is fiction--where the important plot twists are eventually revealed to the readers.

That is series of highly dubious assumptions. Tyrion being the bastard of Aerys Targaryen is not, in any sense, necessarily an important plot point -- that is your assumption, which you want to impute as a fact. And the idea that if something never becomes known to readers, it never happened, is simply silly. This particular series is littered with many such examples of things and events that are hinted at but never confirmed. Martin simply does not write in a conclustory manner, especially when it comes to past events.

[Anath]

Visited court or visited KL? IIRC Aerys also brought the court to CR and Lannisport for half a year or so after Tytos died (don't recall if Cersei and Jaime had been born yet).

KL. Doesn't make any difference for the purpose, though. Aerys did have the chance for a quick tumbling in the sheets now and then. Whether that led to any children is highly dubious and when Tyrion is concerned - impossible. Impossible in my head, that's it.

[ambi76]

So let me summarize. People who want Tyrion to be Aerys's are obviously proven right here. People who want the Golden Twins to be Aerys's are absolutely proven right here. People who want all Lannisters to be Tywin's are also totally proven right here. Yeah, I think this thread has it all. Will laugh my ass of if they all turn out to be the Casterly main stableboy's bastards.

[Mark Antony]

So let me summarize. People who want Tyrion to be Aerys's are obviously proven right here. People who want the Golden Twins to be Aerys's are absolutely proven right here. People who want all Lannisters to be Tywin's are also totally proven right here. Yeah, I think this thread has it all. Will laugh my ass of if they all turn out to be the Casterly main stableboy's bastards.

:lol: thanks for the summary.

[Annara Snow]

The issue of legitimacy is irrelevant. I am not claiming Tyrion has a claim to the throne or is a king. The shadow is an indication of the blood of a king--not that he is a king. Again, it is just a clue. In isolation, it means nothing--it is only when viewed with the other clues that it seems to suggest A+J=T. The point is to look at all of these clues and ask why GRRM put them in the book.

"Blood of a king" does not translate to being a great man or powerful man, that much is clear in ASOAIF. Gendry, Edric, Mya, and other bastards by Robert don't get such descriptions. Neither does Viserys. I never took this paragraph to be about Tyrion's blood, and it strikes me as something very un-GRRM to make it all about having "king's blood". If Tyrion is extraordinary, it's due to his mind, not hypothetical DNA of a mad king who doesn't seem to have been a very capable ruler in the first place.

And yes - there are much stronger clues for A+J=C+J, particularly Cersei's love of fire, her growing similarities to Aerys, the fact Jaime directly compares her to Aerys, the fact Joffrey is directly compared to Aerys and has strong similarities with some of the crazy/asshole Targs (like Aerion Brightflame), the fact that the "incest/inbreeding is responsible for Joffrey's nature/mental illness/personality disorder" theory - if you believe in it - works much better if his parents have Targ blood since the Lannisters don't seem to have had that kind of mental illness/personality disorder running in the family, Aerys' weird attitude to/possessiveness of Jaime including expecting Jaime to choose him over Tywin, Genna's statement that "Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you" which could be taken literally even though Genna didn't mean it that way... each of those on its own and all those collectively are stronger than the clues for A+J=T. But I still don't think either theory is true. There aren't that many secret Targs just waiting to be revealed.

And anyway, if Tyrion's hair was pale white, people would notice and mention it. They don't. That idea only comes from a Jon's description in which he calls Tyrion's hair pale blond and black, not silver. Sansa describes him multiple times and never mentions it. And nobody ever says that he has hair like the Targaryens.

[lareine]

Actually, it seems like this was one of the things that further triggered Aerys' madness. In the beginning, Rhaella apparently wasn't scared of him - she did get her way and dismissed his mistresses from her service, as well as publicly claimed that she didn't approve of his behavior. And he comforted her over the losses. But with mental illness, you just need a strong enough trigger and Aerys did have more than one, his own character flaws included.

Yeah, it was interesting that his 'heir' problem was one of the factors that seemed to kick off his paranoia. He began to believe that none of her dead children were his and told his small council that Rhaella was cheating on him and ordered her locked up in the Red Keep and she had to 2 septas sleep in her room every night to make sure she was being faithful.

Visited court or visited KL? IIRC Aerys also brought the court to CR and Lannisport for half a year or so after Tytos died (don't recall if Cersei and Jaime had been born yet).

They were born the year before the king & Rhaegar spent a year as Tywin & Joanna's houseguest at the Rock:

In 266 AC, at Casterly Rock, Lady Joanna gave birth to a pair of twins, a girl and a boy, “healthy and beautiful, with hair like beaten gold.” This birth only exacerbated the tension between Aerys II Targaryen and his Hand. “I appear to have married the wrong woman,” His Grace was reported to have said, when informed of the happy event.

The following year, 267 AC, saw the death of Lord Tytos Lannister at the age of six-and-forty. Reportedly, his lordship’s heart burst as he was climbing a steep turnpike stair to the bedchambers of his mistress. With his passing, Ser Tywin Lannister became the Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West. When he returned to the west to attend his father’s funeral and set the westerlands in order, King Aerys decided to accompany him. Though His Grace left the queen behind in King’s Landing (Her Grace was pregnant with the child who proved to be the stillborn Princess Shaena), he took their eight-year-old son Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone, and more than half the court. For the better part of the next year, the Seven Kingdoms were ruled from Lannisport and Casterly Rock, where both the king and his Hand were in residence.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

So let me summarize. People who want Tyrion to be Aerys's are obviously proven right here. People who want the Golden Twins to be Aerys's are absolutely proven right here. People who want all Lannisters to be Tywin's are also totally proven right here. Yeah, I think this thread has it all. Will laugh my ass of if they all turn out to be the Casterly main stableboy's bastards.

Joanna was not at KL when the twins were conceived, she was at CR with Tywin. She was at KL when TYrion was conceived. I agree that does not 'prove' anything, simply adds more to the theory. IMHO Tyrion being Aerys' bastard is the only answer that makes sense, given the book DwD and the thousand hints that are in it.

If TWOIAF 'proves' anything, it is that the twins are 100% the children of Tywin and Joanna. That we can be sure of.