Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[butterbumps!]

snip

I got a Bolton question to run by you later from the world book. Sorry if some of that stuff is confusing I don;t have time to do a proper breakdown or tree. The broad strokes are there though.

I'm talking about the "fugal" dynamic between the arcs of Jon, Dany and Aegon in light of how their "Targness"-- real, fake, and secret-- is so central to both their individual characters as well as the overall plot. They aren't the 3 "main" characters of the series, but they are the 3 main iterations of "Targ" in the series.

Dany is the Targ who was known to have escaped, and in true Targ fashion, woke dragons. She is an utterly incontestable Targ.

Yet, Aegon emerges on the scene, looking every bit Rhaegar's trueborn son. He's definitely not actually R's son, but many people will believe he is. I strongly suspect he's from a bastard Targ line. Those who still care about having a Targ on the throne, and who believe he's R's son, will find his claim superior to Dany's on the grounds of birth order and gender. But it's not a straight shot for him, as Dany has dragons. Have dragons, can conquer.

Jon is the one of the three with what's probably the best claim according to convention, but doesn't look the part, and more damning, Aegon's already on the scene (and Aegon's claim would be superior to Jon's, were he actually R's son). With Aegon on the scene, who the hell's going to believe that Jon's yet another of R's long-lost sons? Further, Jon would never identify as a "Targ"-- not out of any sort of hatred for Targs, but because Ned's his "father," and secondly, because he's embraced the bastard identity (he won't identify as a "Stark" either).

What does A+J=T add to this conversation? That he's a secret Targ like Jon, but actually a bastard, so that his Targness and legitimacy has nothing to do with the deconstruction/ reconstruction of power going on with these other 3? Does he come forward as Aerys bastard, swearing off the Lannister name and make a claim as Tyrion Hill? Are we supposed to think of him as the "true heir of the Targ throne," and believe he'll accept the offer or decline this power variously? In what way does this contribute to the theme of bastardy and power beyond how Robert's prodigious stag-seed already makes this point admirably, while not distracting from R+L, or rendering the Tyrion=Tywin dynamic abortive?

Send the Bolton question. I like Bolton questions, lol.

[Wmarshal]

Marwin just left Oldtown for ... Slaver's Bay in Sam's last chapter. To advise Dany...

Moqorro's tale of his dragon dream has been phrased deliberately in such a way that his "and you, in the midst of them" is ambiguous as to whether Tyrion is himself one of the dragons or only surrounded by them. It can't really be taken as evidence one way or the other (except to point out Tyrion's general importance), not until Moqorro gives a further explanation.

Moqorro was not involved in warnings for Dany; Quaithe send that warning. Anyway, even as son of Aerys Tyrion would also still be a Lannister; there is no doubt he is Joanna's son. And until further notice, he is still known officially as a Lannister.

Barristan or others will have that idea, if it happened. ADWD already indicated as much. There is no hint whatsover in the World Book that any Lannister has sex with any Targaryen, even Aegon IV (and plenty of girls of noble houses were explicitly named), except for the hints about Joanna and Aerys. That sudden Aegon IV descendant in the Lannister line would be completely out of left field, not really Martin's style especially now that he has published this new book filling in lots of background. So easy to mention it if it would play a role.

As for Dany, she is a bona fide Targaryen and very proud and aware of her heritage. She is special because she is a dragon(rider), and it is this ability that makes her and her kin into near demi-gods. If someone else manages to ride a dragon without an obvious Targaryen link, she will be shocked and ready for any explanation that still preservers that Targaryen magic. And there's absolutely no need to speculate about Lannister ancestors (which, as you point out, she knows next to nothing about) if Barristan is able to hand her a ready-made explanation on a plate.

Why is Tyrion able to ride dragons? Well, because he has the seed of the dragon, and not from a distant ancestor but from his own father. Surely, that would sound far better to Dany than "maybe Aegon iv happened to sleep with a Lannister of the main line, too", allthough nobody ever made note of that)

Sure, dragonseed can mean that it comes from the ancestors. But just look at how people on those forums tend to not accept that Nettles is a dragonseed, as opposed to the Hull boys (which are quite obviously bastards of Corlys Velaryon).

And I'll repeat it: there is zero indication Tyrion has any other candidate in the Lannister line to have received dragonblood. Might as well say everybody in Westeros is a dragonseed by now (after all the sleeping around since Aegon I), which also wouldn't serve the purpose of keeping the magical aura around the present Targaryen family.

Marwin didn't write the book, that was Yandel. He sees Tyrion, who is neither dragon nor a lion, but a small man.

No he can't, that is like saying Arya can still be a fish.

Not that many actually, save those who's father;s became hand or official mistresses. It explains where Tyrion dragon blood came from, and is far better and more in the realm of know for Dany be it she knows of Aegon's whoring, not Aerys'.

Or just change her way of thinking, she didn't know her dad was mad, yet was probing Barristan in everyway to prove he was not.

That really isn't true, the Hull brothers who's claim at being dragonseeds at all was dubious closest Targaryen hertiage was with Rhaenyra, a claimed grandmother. Conecting Tywin isn't his father is really left field because she has n reason to assume his mother ever met a Targ, because she doesn't know anything of the Lannister history, Dany has never been a investigator, she would likely think " he is blood of the dragon" and leave it at that.

Well yeah, after years of breeding, the like of the plumms with their multi sons or hightowers likely intermarried with their lands lords, like the Marbrands, brax, and presters.

[Wouter]

1.Marwin didn't write the book, that was Yandel. He sees Tyrion, who is neither dragon nor a lion, but a small man.

2.No he can't, that is like saying Arya can still be a fish.

3.That really isn't true, the Hull brothers who's claim at being dragonseeds at all was dubious closest Targaryen hertiage was with Rhaenyra, a claimed grandmother. Conecting Tywin isn't his father is really left field because she has n reason to assume his mother ever met a Targ, because she doesn't know anything of the Lannister history, Dany has never been a investigator, she would likely think " he is blood of the dragon" and leave it at that.

4.Well yeah, after years of breeding, the like of the plumms with their multi sons or hightowers likely intermarried with their lands lords, like the Marbrands, brax, and presters.

1. I didn't speak about a book. Moreover, I suspect you're mixing up Moqorro and Marwin. I singled the latter two out because they are knowledgeable (there's a good chance at least Marwin knows about Aerys' history, and Moqorro has had prophetic dreams about Tyrion), books are not involved.

2. Of course Arya is every bit as much a Tully as a Stark; that's the deal with having parents that aren't incestuous.

3 (Hull brother). The world book pretty much spells it out that Corlys is the father of the Hull bastards; he took the opportunity to acknowledge them after his wife died, and by acknowledging them as his grandsons (through Laenor, who was gay) he got to eat his cake and have it, too: honor intact but heirs acknowledged. There is no doubt those boys had dragonblood.

3-4 (Dany's reaction): The "oh well, after years of breeding everyone is now a Dragonlord" is exactly the kind of thinking Dany would not like. What makes the Targaryens special if everybody and his dog can have the necessary special blood to tame and ride a dragon?

[chrisdaw]

And I'm not sure how Jaime is proving Genna wrong in the following chapters. He ends the siege of Riverrun without one drop of Tully blood being spilled. He threatened to kill Edmure's baby and thinks that makes him his father's son. But since he was lucky enough that he didn't have to go through with it he hasn't yet proven himself to be as cruel as Tywin at all.

It's not about becoming as cruel as Tywin, that's a simplistic notion in the first point and nothing to do with what Genna was referring to or what GRRM is playing at. Jaime is going to assume responsibility for his house and Realm and lead like Tywin. GRRM's intent couldn't be more directly shown in those lines quoted and Jaime's actions following Genna making that statement, it's there in black and white, but then he's even gone so far as to provide parallels in the TWOIAF, with Tywin rumored to have done the same Rains of Castamere trick and adjudicating on a Bracken and Blackwood dispute, just for kicks, over a mill.

There's no reason to believe Genna knows more of Tyrion's paternity than us, she is wrong about the Jaime portion and so clinging to the Tyrion portion as some kind of proof of parentage when it relates to character anyway is simply grasping.

[Chaircat Meow]

Here is my take:

1. Abortion is readily available in the Seven Kingdoms. Joanna Lannister would have almost assuredly have taken it following a rape/encounter with Aerys. The only reason she would not have, is if she was sure she was carrying Tywin’s child. This is a lioness of the Rock, who ruled even Tywin at home. This was no weakling.

2. Aerys is credited as being a "mad rapist", but he only handled his wife roughly, otherwise he only kept mistresses. There is no record of him raping anyone, save his wife, although he would likely view it as claiming his marital rights.

3. Timing is a huge problem. When would this have occurred? From the world book we know that Joanna headed and resided in the West once she married Tywin, and rarely left. Aerys only came West twice that we know of. He held court in the West after Lord Tytos’ death in 267 AC and during in 276 AC, during Tywin’s tournament in the West to celebrate Viserys’ birth. From Cersei in AFFC, we know that she, Jamie, and their mother stayed in the West with Lord Tytos, and that Tywin would come home for leave from KL, which makes sense given he and Aerys gave the realm good and plenty at the start. Tywin is born in 273 AC. It could only have happened during the tourney held in KL to celebrate Aerys’ tenth year on the throne, when he utterly humiliated Lady Johanna. I highly doubt it.

Joanna raped in the midst of Casterly Rock? The most recognizable man in the kingdoms (the King) secretly raping the wife of the most powerful lord in Westeros, and nobody heres or sees of it? Someone would have known.

You've written a very long post but when it gets to the crucial point you give me no more than you did before? Why do you doubt this so much?

Also, you don't need to be mad to rape someone. So I don't see why Aerys not being mad enough is a good argument: we're told he lusted after Joanna and he wanted to put Tywin in his place. You've got all your ingredients there. And we do know he was a rapist in later life, and we do hear him comment that abolishing the right of first night was a shame at Joanna's wedding!

edit: but yea, if Tywin thinks Tyrion is the product of rape Joanna must have had her reaons for refusing moon tea. It has been speculated Tyrion's own birth was premature.

[mezmerised]

It's not about becoming as cruel as Tywin, that's a simplistic notion in the first point and nothing to do with what Genna was referring to or what GRRM is playing at. Jaime is going to assume responsibility for his house and Realm and lead like Tywin. GRRM's intent couldn't be more directly shown in those lines quoted and Jaime's actions following Genna making that statement, it's there in black and white, but then he's even gone so far as to provide parallels in the TWOIAF, with Tywin rumored to have done the same Rains of Castamere trick and adjudicating on a Bracken and Blackwood dispute, just for kicks, over a mill.

There's no reason to believe Genna knows more of Tyrion's paternity than us, she is wrong about the Jaime portion and so clinging to the Tyrion portion as some kind of proof of parentage when it relates to character anyway is simply grasping.

Genna is comparing Jaime and Tyrion's personalities.

In her opinion Jaime is a much kinder man. She calls him 'sweetling', she compares him to Gerion (the fun, carefree uncle) because of his smiles, she says he has something of Kevan's sense of duty and Tyg's talent for fighting.

But Tyrion is the one to be feared.

And he is to be feared like people used to fear Tywin.

You can disagree with it but that's what Genna thinks about her nephews. Or what is your interpretation why she fears Tyrion the most?

(And yes Jaime's is going to assume leadership for House Lannister because he has to now since no one else is left. He was always pro-Lannister even in conflicts between his honour or morality vs the safety of Lannister family members so he is not going to abandon them now. And he might rise to the occasion but he never enjoyed having power like Tywin or Tyrion did. And it's not what Genna was talking about anyway.)

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

You've written a very long post but when it gets to the crucial point you give me no more than you did before? Why do you doubt this so much?

Also, you don't need to be mad to rape someone. So I don't see why Aerys not being mad enough is a good argument: we're told he lusted after Joanna and he wanted to put Tywin in his place. You've got all your ingredients there. And we do know he was a rapist in later life, and we do hear him comment that abolishing the right of first night was a shame at Joanna's wedding!

edit: but yea, if Tywin thinks Tyrion is the product of rape Joanna must have had her reaons for refusing moon tea. It has been speculated Tyrion's own birth was premature.

1. Yes, the post was long, as it laid out the counter to every contrived point in favor of this theory.

2. I’m not sure why the tournament held in honor of Aerys’ tenth year on the throne is the crucial point for you above all others. Certainly, it serves as the only plausible time that a purported rape that produced Tyrion could have occurred, but the odds of said rape happening are so remote that it is very unlikely that it took place. All of the eyes and ears at KL, all of the Lannister guards, Aerys watched by his King’s Guard, and just about everyone else. Not buying it, sorry.

3. Again, the rapist argument. He is only known to have had violent sex with his wife. Who did he rape, and when?

4. The madness is key, as it overpowers reason and logic. This did not happen to Aerys until after Duskendale. He put Tywin in his place by refusing Cersei to Rheagar, humiliating his wife in public, groping her (taking liberties during the bedding), and stealing his heir for the King’s Guard.

5. Tyrion premature? Where? How? New to me.

[Chaircat Meow]

1. Yes, the post was long, as it laid out the counter to every contrived point in favor of this theory.

And quite a bit of it was flat out wrong and irrelevant, like the suggestion Tywin ever meant for Tyrion to be his heir.

2. I’m not sure why the tournament held in honor of Aerys’ tenth year on the throne is the crucial point for you above all others. Certainly, it serves as the only plausible time that a purported rape that produced Tyrion could have occurred, but the odds of said rape happening are so remote that it is very unlikely that it took place. All of the eyes and ears at KL, all of the Lannister guards, Aerys watched by his King’s Guard, and just about everyone else. Not buying it, sorry.

Because that's the theory. No one has speculated Joanna was raped anywhere else, I said the world book reads as though she was raped in 272 at the tourney in KL. Aerys didn't do the rape in front of everyone with the court watching, he had her taken to his chambers. I suspect some of the old KG do/did know about it though.

3. Again, the rapist argument. He is only known to have had violent sex with his wife. Who did he rape, and when?

His wife.

4. The madness is key, as it overpowers reason and logic. This did not happen to Aerys until after Duskendale. He put Tywin in his place by refusing Cersei to Rheagar, humiliating his wife in public, groping her (taking liberties during the bedding), and stealing his heir for the King’s Guard.

No it is not. I'm not proposing the rape was an act of madness.

5. Tyrion premature? Where? How? New to me.

Cos Joanna would not want to have been in labour when her dornish friends showed up.

[Wmarshal]

1. I didn't speak about a book. Moreover, I suspect you're mixing up Moqorro and Marwin. I singled the latter two out because they are knowledgeable (there's a good chance at least Marwin knows about Aerys' history, and Moqorro has had prophetic dreams about Tyrion), books are not involved.

2. Of course Arya is every bit as much a Tully as a Stark; that's the deal with having parents that aren't incestuous.

3 (Hull brother). The world book pretty much spells it out that Corlys is the father of the Hull bastards; he took the opportunity to acknowledge them after his wife died, and by acknowledging them as his grandsons (through Laenor, who was gay) he got to eat his cake and have it, too: honor intact but heirs acknowledged. There is no doubt those boys had dragonblood.

3-4 (Dany's reaction): The "oh well, after years of breeding everyone is now a Dragonlord" is exactly the kind of thinking Dany would not like. What makes the Targaryens special if everybody and his dog can have the necessary special blood to tame and ride a dragon?

1. ah, i was confused what you meant of the guy who wrote the book, who i in no way heading to Tyrion.

2. She is a Stark, when people describe her and her kin, they think a wolf, not a fish.

3. Hull Brothers, they were twins. And Colys isn't reported to be a son of any Targaryen, nor is he one.

4. She doesn't research, not even when she learns her dad was a mad man.

[Dofs]

Genna is comparing Jaime and Tyrion's personalities.

In her opinion Jaime is a much kinder man. She calls him 'sweetling', she compares him to Gerion (the fun, carefree uncle) because of his smiles, she says he has something of Kevan's sense of duty and Tyg's talent for fighting.

But Tyrion is the one to be feared.

And he is to be feared like people used to fear Tywin.

You can disagree with it but that's what Genna thinks about her nephews. Or what is your interpretation why she fears Tyrion the most?

(And yes Jaime's is going to assume leadership for House Lannister because he has to now since no one else is left. He was always pro-Lannister even in conflicts between his honour or morality vs the safety of Lannister family members so he is not going to abandon them now. And he might rise to the occasion but he never enjoyed having power like Tywin or Tyrion did. And it's not what Genna was talking about anyway.)

I've always thought that Genna was talking about the fact that only Tyrion could protect their House as Tywin did. What I thought Genna feared of is that the one son, who could lead House Lannister and protect it was gone, and Jaime was incapable of it.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

And quite a bit of it was flat out wrong and irrelevant, like the suggestion Tywin ever meant for Tyrion to be his heir.

Because that's the theory. No one has speculated Joanna was raped anywhere else, I said the world book reads as though she was raped in 272 at the tourney in KL. Aerys didn't do the rape in front of everyone with the court watching, he had her taken to his chambers. I suspect some of the old KG do/did know about it though.

His wife.

No it is not. I'm not proposing the rape was an act of madness.

Cos Joanna would not want to have been in labour when her dornish friends showed up.

1. Flat out wrong and irrelevant? Really? You may need to reread. In AGOT Jaime is captured, Ned Stark is beheaded at the command of Joff, the Lannisters are losing, and Tywin sends Tyrion to KL to rule, because he is “his son.” Tyrion is shocked and sickened that his father had given Jaime up for dead, and that Tyrion was simply all he had left.

Jaime was taken from Tywin by Aerys, with no hope of return. His wife was dead and he had no plans to remarry. He sought about finding a suitable wife for Tyrion, as I explained earlier. Your lack of reading or knowledge regarding the text disqualifies you from naming anything wrong or irrelevant.

2. This theory predates the world book by far. Her rape has been speculated to have taken place in a number of different ways and venues. I’m not familiar with your personal theory, nor am I interested in it following this discourse.

3. Rough sex/rape of his wife is simply not enough to translate rape of Joanna Lannister. Any attempts to the contrary just don’t add up, sorry.

4. I’m interested in what you are proposing per se. I don’t know your personal theories. I’m only focused on the plausibility of Aerys raping Joanna, and I just don’t find it very plausible. If you do, cheers.

5. Whatever.

[chrisdaw]

Genna is comparing Jaime and Tyrion's personalities.

Yes, and she concludes Jaime isn't Tywin and Tyrion is. Jaime then goes on to show he is Tywin in no uncertain terms, the author puts it there in black and white and doubles down on it in TWOIAF. Cruel or vengeful is a simplistic characterisation of Tywin, Genna recounts Tywin as she knew him and it is the sum of those that she sees in Tyrion and not in Jaime. With him gone who will protect us now she asks, the sort of man who comes along once in a thousand years, big even when he was little, this is what she speaks of and cruelty and vengeance are not the over-riding theme, it's resolve and strength of character.

[mezmerised]

I've always thought that Genna was talking about the fact that only Tyrion could protect their House as Tywin did. What I thought Genna feared of is that the one son, who could lead House Lannister and protect it was gone, and Jaime was incapable of it.

How incapable could she possibly think Jaime could be as Lord of CR when she mentioned that to Tywin years ago? That was in the middle of the Lannister's golden period when they basically had no rivals in the Westerlands nor obvious enemies in the realm?

And also when Jaime said "He left a son" I interpreted that as Jaime meaning "He left me" (obviously) and Genna answering as if she considered "the son" to be Tyrion (Tywin's 'true son' according to Genna) while saying "that's what I fear the most" meaning retaliation from Tyrion because he felt betrayed by his family.

I can see what you say (and it seems clear that chrisdaw read the passage like you did) but I'd be a bit disappointed if that was what Genna meant. She then seems to underestimate Jaime and gives no opinion at all about exiled Tyrion's current emotianal state. Looks like Aunt Genna is not as perceptive as I thought :(

[Dofs]

How incapable could she possibly think Jaime could be as Lord of CR when she mentioned that to Tywin years ago? That was in the middle of the Lannister's golden period when they basically had no rivals in the Westerlands nor obvious enemies in the realm?

What she mentioned years ago to Tywin was just that 'Tyrion is Tywin's true son'. It's only now that she speaks about the needed protection of House Lannister.

And also when Jaime said "He left a son" I interpreted that as Jaime meaning "He left me" (obviously) and Genna answering as if she considered "the son" to be Tyrion (Tywin's 'true son' according to Genna) while saying "that's what I fear the most" meaning retaliation from Tyrion because he felt betrayed by his family.

I can see what you say (and it seems clear that chrisdaw read the passage like you did) but I'd be a bit disappointed if that was what Genna meant. She then seems to underestimate Jaime and gives no opinion at all about exiled Tyrion's current emotianal state. Looks like Aunt Genna is not as perceptive as I thought :(

Well, chrisdraw makes a good point about the fact that Genna loved Tywin and in that same conversation she spoke fondly of him. It would be very strange that when she spoke about Tyrion being Tywin's son, she suddenly spoke about cruelty.

And absolutely everyone underestimates Jaime, really, Jaime himself including. There was no reason for Genna to think that Jaime is politically capable. Nobody thought.

[chrisdaw]

She does fear Tyrion, as she would Tywin had he become an enemy, because she views both as a tower of strength.

She's wrong though, and besides Tyrion not burning the Lannisters to the ground I suggest the pay off will probably be when the Blackwoods and Brackens turn against the throne again Jaime will want to execute Hoster and the Bracken hostage as he promised he would but Tyrion won't.