Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[Bael's Bastard]

There are hints. It states that Joanna left and "seldom" returned (a clue she was not with Aerys at time of conception). Aerys states after the twins are born that he had not seen Joanna in a long time (hint that they were not together at time of conception).

And putting Joanna in KL at a time that could have been the conception for Tyrion is more than just a possibility--when put together with all the other A+J=T clues. It is another clue.

No, there are no hints or clues about where any of the parties were when Joanna conceived. You are projecting your beliefs onto statements that do not indicate anything about Joanna's becoming pregnant. We are told nothing about her becoming pregnant. There is just a gap of a few years, with no details like that. You are trying to fill in information that is not there. Seldom returned means she DID return, but we don't know when those returns were, and anyway, we don't know whether she was ever around Aerys in the nine months prior to their birth. Nor do we know when or how often she was around his Hand Tywin. Nor are we told if Aerys was around Joanna nine (or less?) months before Tyrion was born. At most we are told than Joanna brought the twins to court in 272, was humiliated by Aerys' comments, and Tywin tried to resign, and in 273 Joanna died giving birth to Tyrion. Was she already pregnant when she came to KL and humiliated, were her visit in 272 and death in 273 closer to six, nine, twelve, eighteen or twenty four months apart? In the case of both theories, nothing was provided to debunk or prove either. Plenty of room to speculate either way was provided. Sorry, but it is clear that some people thought there was something that debunked or made the twins theory unlikely, but there isn't, no more than there is something that proves or makes the theory likely. It stands where it stood before the book, just with more backstory on the people involved or possibly involved. One could argue that the gap in information between Rhaella firing Joanna and her giving birth is suspicious seeing how much of a source Pycelle is for that era, or just as easily argue that the gap skips irrelevant uneventful information, and there's nothing to it. Personally, I don't think Aerys has anything to do with any of Joanna's children. But the book leaves room for either to be speculated or discounted, and that is not surprisingly what is happening.

[Ser Greg of House House]

The build up to Tyrion's revelation as a Targ bastard is continuing smoothly with the World Book's contents.

Rather interesting that Joanna happens to be in King's Landing just when Tyrion is conceived...

The momentum is building.

This. More and more evidence. People hate it, but the evidence is building up.

[Bael's Bastard]

This. More and more evidence. People hate it, but the evidence is building up.

The book doesn't tell us whether Joanna was already pregnant or not when she went to KL, it doesn't tell us when in 272 she went to KL, it doesn't tell us what year Tyrion was conceived in, or what part of 273 he was born in. Superficially I can see how it makes fans of the theory excited, but it didn't bring us any closer to the truth either way.

[Lord Varys]

Come on, guys, we are investigating a novel/fictional universe here. What's there, is there for a reason.

We have to ask why the hell did GRRM establish a love affair (or the rumors thereof) in this book and in the series at large? Surely not just because 'it is always fun to know whether to dead people hat the hots for each other'.

Thus the thing is there because a child could have been involved, or another sort of plot-related mystery. If it was the twins, and if there was some hints in there that Aerys was their father, than there would hints in there detailing whether they had the opportunity to conceive the children. No such hint can be found, thus this is much more unlikely than the other option, Tyrion.

Which fits much more nicer anyway, especially considering that some of Aerys and Rhaella's children may have been similar monstrosities of the Tyrion type. Jaehaerys II was also disfigured - he had a twisted hand. Considering this, Aerys is a much more likely candidate to father a child like Tyrion than Tywin is. There is no dwarf/disfigured/twisted Lannister in their long history mentioned. Not one.

[Ser Greg of House House]

The book doesn't tell us whether Joanna was already pregnant or not when she went to KL, it doesn't tell us when in 272 she went to KL, it doesn't tell us what year Tyrion was conceived in, or what part of 273 he was born in. Superficially I can see how it makes fans of the theory excited, but it didn't bring us any closer to the truth either way.

It's far from proven, not even a "strong" theory as some that people take as fact. But the thing is a lot of people treat it as crackpot. It's not. We should keep an eye open.

I actually have an alternate idea that Tyrion is Tywin's son, but those hints are there to convince Tyrion that he's a Targ bastard at a certain point. He's estranged from his family and if Barristan told him his mother had an affair with Aerys, he could start to have ideas. Wishful thinking or playing it to convince Dany, Tyrion Targ could have a part in the story, regardless of his true parentage.

[Cas Stark]

Come on, guys, we are investigating a novel/fictional universe here. What's there, is there for a reason.

We have to ask why the hell did GRRM establish a love affair (or the rumors thereof) in this book and in the series at large? Surely not just because 'it is always fun to know whether to dead people hat the hots for each other'.

Thus the thing is there because a child could have been involved, or another sort of plot-related mystery. If it was the twins, and if there was some hints in there that Aerys was their father, than there would hints in there detailing whether they had the opportunity to conceive the children. No such hint can be found, thus this is much more unlikely than the other option, Tyrion.

Which fits much more nicer anyway, especially considering that some of Aerys and Rhaella's children may have been similar monstrosities of the Tyrion type. Jaehaerys II was also disfigured - he had a twisted hand. Considering this, Aerys is a much more likely candidate to father a child like Tyrion than Tywin is. There is no dwarf/disfigured/twisted Lannister in their long history mentioned. Not one.

I'm just annoyed by the whole thing now. Yes, it's there for a reason, but is he going to eventually resolve it or is it expanded on for the author's amusement. I will never be convinced that any of the Lannister children being secret Targs is anything but totally lame a nd a ruining of their stories, but I disagree, it seems with the author on a few of his characters and stories and where they're going.

[Ingelheim]

Come on, guys, we are investigating a novel/fictional universe here. What's there, is there for a reason.

We have to ask why the hell did GRRM establish a love affair (or the rumors thereof) in this book and in the series at large? Surely not just because 'it is always fun to know whether to dead people hat the hots for each other'.

Thus the thing is there because a child could have been involved, or another sort of plot-related mystery. If it was the twins, and if there was some hints in there that Aerys was their father, than there would hints in there detailing whether they had the opportunity to conceive the children. No such hint can be found, thus this is much more unlikely than the other option, Tyrion.

Which fits much more nicer anyway, especially considering that some of Aerys and Rhaella's children may have been similar monstrosities of the Tyrion type. Jaehaerys II was also disfigured - he had a twisted hand. Considering this, Aerys is a much more likely candidate to father a child like Tyrion than Tywin is. There is no dwarf/disfigured/twisted Lannister in their long history mentioned. Not one.

I still think, from a literary point, Tyrion being Aerys' son is just plainly wrong.

[Lord Varys]

Of course you can think that, but the hints are there that GRRM disagrees with you. I did not find the idea all that compelling either, but that's mostly, I think, because the picture of the characters is set over time and during rereads, and one does not consider or want certain things to change.

But that Tyrion and Jon being the different sides of the same coin - (royal) bastards, hidden kings - is there since the very beginning of AGoT.

And the whole point of the Joanna story is to lead up to that revelation. Anything else would just be waste of pages, really.

[Ingelheim]

Of course you can think that, but the hints are there that GRRM disagrees with you. I did not find the idea all that compelling either, but that's mostly, I think, because the picture of the characters is set over time and during rereads, and one does not consider or want certain things to change.

But that Tyrion and Jon being the different sides of the same coin - (royal) bastards, hidden kings - is there since the very beginning of AGoT.

And the whole point of the Joanna story is to lead up to that revelation. Anything else would just be waste of pages, really.

Sure, Martin can and probably will disagree with me, if Tyrion is proven to be Aerys'. And I'll be free to believe it's a great mistake.

[Dofs]

Tyrion could be Aerys' son but for me the main argument against that is that it would flat out kill Tyrion's arc in SOS. From a character development point of view, making Tyrion a son of Aerys is quite a bad idea, imo.

[NoneofYourBiz]

I still think, from a literary point, Tyrion being Aerys' son is just plainly wrong.

I do too. It will ruin much of the story for me if it is so.

[bent branch]

I am shocked that there are still some people fighting the A + J = T theory.

The Aerys chapter in "A World of Ice and Fire" all but confirms it.

I was already convinced of this theory from the time I read the scene in SOS where Tyrion asked for Casterly Rock. Tywin said something like:

"The laws of men state you can wear my colors since I cannot prove you are not mine"

Tywin would not have said something like this unless there was a possibility Joanna slept with someone else around the time of Tyrion's conception. If Tywin was the only man she slept with there could me no doubt of Tyrion's parentage and therefore nothing to prove.

Plus, if Joanna did sleep with someone other than Tywin, the most likely person would be Ayerys because he would be the only person who could get away with something like that.

The Aerys chapter in a World of Ice and Fire confirms a number of important things:

a) Aerys was at Casterly Rock around the time Tyrion was conceived

B) Aerys desired Joanna

c) Joanna and Aerys may have slept together in the past

d) After Aerys' stay at Casterly Rock the rift between him and Tywin became more pronounced

The evidence supporting A + J= T is almost as compelling as the evidence supporting R + L = J.

Welcome to the forums. :) That people are still arguing that A+J=T is somehow not intentional on the author's part is a bit sad, but some people don't know how to admit they were wrong. The greatest proof of it is in the section of text I have highlighted. The fact that Tywin doubts Tyrion is his and now the information we are given in this book explains why he felt that way. We can already say it has had an effect retroactively in the story. The reason Tywin treated Tyrion the way he did and the reason he wouldn't let Tyrion inherit Casterly Rock is now explained. Interestingly, Tyrion's whoring undoubtedly convinced Tywin even more that Aerys was his father. So all the arguing over whether or not Joanna could or could not have gotten with pregnant with Tyrion during that visit to court is moot. Tywin thinks it could have happened and that should be all the more proof the reader needs to acknowledge that it could have happened. So in this way A+J=T has been confirmed.

However, there is another aspect to this question. Is Tyrion really the son of Aerys? Was Tywin correct in his belief? I think the evidence provided indicates he was. Since there is no DNA test in Westeros to prove paternity we are going to have to wait for more information to see if Tyrion actually is a Targ.

Dragonstone had its own maester, and Rhaegar ruled there. He would have decided who delivered his wife's children. Not to mention that Aerys did not give about a fig about 'those royal Dornish smelling children'.

The most interesting aspect of Rhaegar and Elia living on Dragonstone is that there may have been no one in Aerys court who could have identified Aegon smashed face or no. If Rhaegar had placed Aegon in hiding before Aerys had even called for Elia and the children, then Aegon could very well be who he appears to be. The chances that Aegon is the son of Rhaegar and Elia have gone up.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Of course you can think that, but the hints are there that GRRM disagrees with you. I did not find the idea all that compelling either, but that's mostly, I think, because the picture of the characters is set over time and during rereads, and one does not consider or want certain things to change.

But that Tyrion and Jon being the different sides of the same coin - (royal) bastards, hidden kings - is there since the very beginning of AGoT.

And the whole point of the Joanna story is to lead up to that revelation. Anything else would just be waste of pages, really.

So you don't think that there'd be any value if it existed to add depth to Tywin? To explain why, in part, Tywin was the way he was? Why Tywin was, shall we say, not quite father of the year? Why Tywin betrayed Aerys the way that he did? Sure Tywin's dead now, but all of these things affected him and how he interacted with his children.

[chrisdaw]

I actually have an alternate idea that Tyrion is Tywin's son, but those hints are there to convince Tyrion that he's a Targ bastard at a certain point. He's estranged from his family and if Barristan told him his mother had an affair with Aerys, he could start to have ideas. Wishful thinking or playing it to convince Dany, Tyrion Targ could have a part in the story, regardless of his true parentage.

Definitely central to Tyrion's internal identity dilemma, but it's Dany who will push it and be surer than Tyrion. True or not it's an agreed upon fact in Westeros that Targaryen's ride dragons, when Tyrion hops on Viserion without any horn it's Dany, the proud Targaryen, blood of the dragon, who will want answers to willingly accept.

Viserion named for Viserys, the brother who betrayed her, or did she betray him?

[Ser Greg of House House]

Definitely central to Tyrion's internal identity dilemma, but it's Dany who will push it and be surer than Tyrion. True or not it's an agreed upon fact in Westeros that Targaryen's ride dragons, when Tyrion hops on Viserion without any horn it's Dany, the proud Targaryen, blood of the dragon, who will want answers to willingly accept.

Viserion named for Viserys, the brother who betrayed her, or did she betray him?

I agree. There's strong foreshadowing that Tyrion will ride a dragon. There's an affair that could make him a Targ. And we have the guy to tell him that right there in Meereen...

What more do people need to start believing?

[Cas Stark]

Sure, Martin can and probably will disagree with me, if Tyrion is proven to be Aerys'. And I'll be free to believe it's a great mistake.

i agree w/you

[Lord Varys]

I really don't see any interesting plot line for Tyrion if he does not become a dragonrider and a potential pretender himself. Do you guys want him to play cyvasse with Brown Ben until the end of the series, or what?

And no, he plotting revenge or trying to get Casterly Rock is not all that interesting, either...

Whatever arc Tyrion may or may not have had in ASoS, that's not the core of the series.

[Cas Stark]

I really don't see any interesting plot line for Tyrion if he does not become a dragonrider and a potential pretender himself. Do you guys want him to play cyvasse with Brown Ben until the end of the series, or what?

And no, he plotting revenge or trying to get Casterly Rock is not all that interesting, either...

Whatever arc Tyrion may or may not have had in ASoS, that's not the core of the series.

I don't care if he lives or dies at this point in the story, but he might begin to redeem himself by possibly fighting for the right side, trying to help people because it's the right thing to do, not because it protects his worthless family, of which he may not even have ever deserved to be a part of, if he's a Targ bastard, LOL, meaning Tywin was right to intuitively despise him and deny him Casterly Rock....which alone is reason why him being a secret Targ is a terrible choice on the author's part.

[Lord Varys]

Who cares about that shitty rock if can take the throne? If Dany does not return soon, and Tyrion becomes a dragonrider, he could lay claim to the Iron Throne.

All hail Tyrion Truefyre, the First of His Name!

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Ok, would anyone care to reexamine the dream where Tyrion has two heads? In light of the new information I think someone should definitely look that up. Not me, because...well I'm lazy. :P