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Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)


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Nettles is a Dragonstonian girl by birth and has thus very likely as much dragonlord blood as all the other dragonseeds.

There's nowhere near sufficient information to call that "very likely", since there's no evidence she has dragon blood. Not everyone on Dragonstone has Targaryen descent.

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So, Tywin Lannister, the victim. Who would have thunk it. An odd choice by the author if it's all true.

Manipulated and cuckholded by his wife who he loved and respected....and then saddled with raising a bastard dwarf sired by another man....no wonder he was a bitter asshole.

Yeah, I hate this idea.

Shae being in his bed was a big give away that GRRM was set to flesh out the Tywin behind the scenes. Another is that there is so much content and Tyrion arc left and it's been well signalled that Tywin is the driving force, there needs be more fuel. Ultimately this ends in Tyrion deciding Lannister or Targaryen, Tywin or Aerys, Jaime or Dany, weeping head or fire and blood head, this plot device allows Tyrion the freedom to choose to be Tywin's son.

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Poor Tywin.

I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with that statement, but after reading the levels of shit Aerys put him through....

Poor Tywin.

Doesn't excuse his later behavior, but wow, you can understand why he was such a bitter asshole.

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Shae being in his bed was a big give away that GRRM was set to flesh out the Tywin behind the scenes. Another is that there is so much content and Tyrion arc left and it's been well signalled that Tywin is the driving force, there needs be more fuel. Ultimately this ends in Tyrion deciding Lannister or Targaryen, Tywin or Aerys, Jaime or Dany, weeping head or fire and blood head, this plot device allows Tyrion the freedom to choose to be Tywin's son.

I don't buy that either. He is either Tywin's son or he isn't, in fact. "Choice" doesn't enter in to it, it's biology. I would find that a very strange choice also on the author's part, since it would almost exactly mirror what I expect to be Jon Snow's internal struggle...Stark or Targaryen....so, then we're have two of the three main characters engaged in exactly the same mental dilemma on their identity? Really? Bad writing if true.

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Are we really just going to walk past this without acknowledging it?

Ran is Elio, right? Because I read that as saying "you won't be getting a smoking gun either way on this question, but it's important to keep in mind that these issues are to a certain extent unresolved in the eyes of some characters as well."

Yes, Ran is Elio and I noticed that comment as well. I don't really know Elio's personality at all, so I don't know whether he would want to stoke doubt or not. I tend to think, however, that he would simply want people to keep speculating about these issues and not think they are resolved. But if A+J=T is merely suggested by a bunch of red herrings, then I don't really know the point of them. Normally a red herring is meant to distract the readers from the real resolution of some mystery. Classically, it is putting forth additional suspects so that the real murderer is not completely obvious as the only realistic suspect. But in this case, A+J=T would be a red herring for what purpose? I don't get the point of putting in these clues as a distraction--as distraction from what?

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We can argue if Tyrion is a product of Aerys vs Tywin until the cows come home, but the fact remains that all the language is ambiguous enough so that no conclusion can be made until TWoW or ADoS....



personal opinion= I would hate it if any of the Lannisters were Targs while Jon and (f?)Aegon are out there. Seriously not everyone can just be a Targ and get a dragon, haha. But that may just be me. I feel like Tyrion actually has a wholly different revelation about himself coming his way, but he will be equally important to the ending of all this as Jon/Aegon/Dany/etc.


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I don't buy that either. He is either Tywin's son or he isn't, in fact. "Choice" doesn't enter in to it, it's biology. I would find that a very strange choice also on the author's part, since it would almost exactly mirror what I expect to be Jon Snow's internal struggle...Stark or Targaryen....so, then we're have two of the three main characters engaged in exactly the same mental dilemma on their identity? Really? Bad writing if true.

Will it be a strict question of biology with "I will never forget who my father is, no matter how many swords they give me" Jon? As far as mirroring goes, we've seen it with Theon too and Alayne has a new "father" to cast off.

He made a Targaryen with two heads, then put Tyrion in a dream with two heads, one weeping and one all fire and blood as he chopped through his family, but buy what you will.

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The population on Dragonstone could very be completely descended from dragonlords for all we know. We don't even know whether the Valyrians did allow the people who lived there before their coming (if anyone lived on that island at all) to stay. All the successful dragonseeds had dragonlord blood (Addam of Hull) or were Dragonstonians (Nettles, Ulf, Hugh). Among the Dragonstone population dragon blood certainly is much more common than anywhere else in Westeros, especially among the more ancient forebears. No one says that anyone there has dragon blood, but some of them do. And the idea that some wild girl just tamed a dragon with sheep makes no sense at all in a world where dragons are confirmed to be only controlled by some incestuous sorcerer lords...


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Will it be a strict question of biology with "I will never forget who my father is, no matter how many swords they give me" Jon? As far as mirroring goes, we've seen it with Theon too and Alayne has a new "father" to cast off.

He made a Targaryen with two heads, then put Tyrion in a dream with two heads, one weeping and one all fire and blood as he chopped through his family, but buy what you will.

Despite my fairly low opinon of Sansa, I think I can say with high confidence that she doesn't really think LF is her father, or think of him as a second father, and she has not forgotten her real father and is not and will not ever be confused on this issue, and his highly likely to take serious vengeance when she finds out the truth of how her father died. So, I don't see that as remotely similar.

Sorry, I just don't buy it. Tyrion hated his father, why would he choose to identify with Tywin? It makes no sense. The whole idea is stupid. Tyrion as Aerys son is stupid. It ruins the tragic element of the Tywin/Tyrion dynamic of Tyrion being Tywin's "true" son, his intellectual heir, which he couldn't see.

Jon's story is different because he grew up believing he was a bastard, unlike Tyrion who grew up as a trueborn son of Tywin Lannister. So, Jon's decision, is all wrapped up in emotional loyalty to the Starks v. the social status he would get if he were say a legitimized son of Rhaegar and not a bastard at all. Being a bastard and outsider for that reason is a huge part of Jon's self image. Tyrion has none of that since there is no emotional loyalty to his father or anyone else in his family except his brother and no loyalty or feeling to any Targaryens either. He's an outsider because he's a dwarf, not because he's a bastard. So, again, it's just a dumb idea that I pray GRRM does not ever act on.

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If Tywin had any reason to doubt Tyrion's lineage, he would have cast him aside in an instant. "In the end, Tywin Lannister did not shit gold" and whatever line Aerys made about Tyrion are enough to make me think Tyrion is Tywin's son. Also, Tyrion is every bit as lustful and full of pride as Tywin is. He IS Tywin.

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The build up to Tyrion's revelation as a Targ bastard is continuing smoothly with the World Book's contents.

Rather interesting that Joanna happens to be in King's Landing just when Tyrion is conceived...

The momentum is building.

I agree. I don't see the point in GRRM putting out so many clues to support the theory. Seriously, this thing could have easily been squashed with one sentence to put Aerys and Joanna away from each other in 272 but that didn't happen and it isn't as though this theory isn't widely known at this point.

(1) The book "proves" that Tryion inherited Tywin's traits--not at all. Physical traits are inherited. Personality traits are just as likely to be developed by the child trying to emulate the parent. When Tyrion is described as the "true" son of Tywin based on Tyrion's personality, these trait are equally likely a matter of Tyrion striving to be like his father. Jaime (the bio-son) tried in many ways to be the opposite of his father, and so was not his "true" son. But Tyrion (not the bio-son of Tywin) wanted his "father's" approval so badly, that Tyrion took on Tywin's traits. This evidence means nothing in terms of biological connection--and everything to do with the nature of their relationship. As far as similarities to Targs, what similarities do you want? He has the hair color. He has mismatched eyes (a Targ bastard is one of the only other characters described this way). He has an obsessive interest in dragons. I think those are some Targ traits.

(2) Invalidate the story arc--well this is completely subjective. I don't agree at all. I think Tyrion's attempt to please his father is even more tragic once he learns that Tywin was not Tyrion's bio-dad. Tywin is dead, so anything that becomes known only after his death cannot have as big an impact on the story arc as you suggest. But I think the real point is that from the readers' point of view, we are left to believe that their relationship was destined to be doomed. I don't see how that is an invalidation of the story arc--it just adds more texture.

I especially agree with the above. I have never understood the idea that Tyrion being Aerys's son would somehow destroy or invalidate the Tywin/Tyrion relationship. To me that's basically the same as saying that Rhaegar being Jon's father somehow invalidates the father son relationship that Jon and Ned had. Jon is still Ned's son even if Rhaegar is his biological father and I feel the same about Tyrion and Tywin. Tyrion is like Tywin because Tywin is the only parent he's ever had. Tywin raised him and because of the way Tywin treated Tyrion, Tyrion was the one who tried to be most like Tywin because he was always seeking his approval.

To me Tyrion being the son of Aerys answers a lot of questions and seems to be leading up to Tyrion eventually riding Viserion.

And the idea that some wild girl just tamed a dragon with sheep makes no sense at all in a world where dragons are confirmed to be only controlled by some incestuous sorcerer lords...

Thank you!

I think it's pretty clear that you need at least a drop of dragonblood in order to be a dragonrider. If it was just about having the nerve/persistence to train one by giving it meat until it is able to trust, a lot of other people in the world other than Valyrians would/should have easily figured that shit out.

As for the idea of "everyone being a secret Targ" I don't think that we're exactly being overloaded and agree with those who see the situations with Jon, Tyrion, and fAegon as being totally different.

It really blows my mind that people still think this theory has "no merit" whatsoever. This theory graduated from crackpot a long, long time ago.

If Tywin had any reason to doubt Tyrion's lineage, he would have cast him aside in an instant.

I'm not sure about this. I think the key thing here is that he had doubts but didn't know for sure. He might not have been willing to risk being a kinslayer. I also think that love for Joanna could have stayed his hand. I'm not sure but I feel like the show too shed a bit of light on Tywin's thought process when Tyrion was born and I got the impression that Tywin did indeed want to kill Tyrion the moment he was born but something ultimately kept him from going there.

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I agree. I don't see the point in GRRM putting out so many clues to support the theory. Seriously, this thing could have easily been squashed with one sentence to put Aerys and Joanna away from each other in 272 but that didn't happen and it isn't as though this theory isn't widely known at this point.

He wasn't interested in squashing it, because it's a red herring.

I especially agree with the above. I have never understood the idea that Tyrion being Aerys's son would somehow destroy or invalidate the Tywin/Tyrion relationship. To me that's basically the same as saying that Rhaegar being Jon's father somehow invalidates the father son relationship that Jon and Ned had. Jon is still Ned's son even if Rhaegar is his biological father and I feel the same about Tyrion and Tywin. Tyrion is like Tywin because Tywin is the only parent he's ever had. Tywin raised him and because of the way Tywin treated Tyrion, Tyrion was the one who tried to be most like Tywin because he was always seeking his approval.

The difference is that Tyrion has no emotional connection to Tywin or his legacy, and hates him; not being Tywin's son is a 100% positive thing, in that regard. Moreover, it ruins the Tyrion/Tywin dynamic because instead of being about Tywin's bigotry and inability to recognize his true son because it, it's Tywin being justified in hating Tyrion, who is, in fact, not his son at all, and the product either of an affair or a rape of his wife.

Jon's true parentage doesn't invalidate anything like that.

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Yes, Ran is Elio and I noticed that comment as well. I don't really know Elio's personality at all, so I don't know whether he would want to stoke doubt or not. I tend to think, however, that he would simply want people to keep speculating about these issues and not think they are resolved. But if A+J=T is merely suggested by a bunch of red herrings, then I don't really know the point of them. Normally a red herring is meant to distract the readers from the real resolution of some mystery. Classically, it is putting forth additional suspects so that the real murderer is not completely obvious as the only realistic suspect. But in this case, A+J=T would be a red herring for what purpose? I don't get the point of putting in these clues as a distraction--as distraction from what?

I should probably take a cue from your caution and refrain from putting words in Elio's mouth, but my reading of his quote there is that this red herring isn't for us so much as it's for the characters. Specifically, Tywin.

Let's say for the sake of argument that none of these issues occurred to anyone else in Westeros: Tywin is sensitive to insults or perceived insults, obsessed with Joanna, and very jealous of Aerys to begin with. He will be wondering about their relationship. He'll be staring a little longer at Tyrion, especially given that he has at least one reason to wish Tyrion were someone else's. He'll suspect, it'll undermine his confidence. Worse, he'll suspect that everyone else is having the same thoughts. He'll suspect they're laughing at him behind his back. Tywin responds to insecurity with aggression. This could be the nagging insecurity that explains so much of his attitude toward other people.

So yeah, you could introduce this question, never answer it, and just have the fact that the question is out there and at least one of the characters is aware of it inform your world in a pretty big way.

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He wasn't interested in squashing it, because it's a red herring.

A red herring for what though, I wonder? Joanna is still such a mysterious character at this point, I can't help but think that it must mean something for Aerys to feature so prominently in what little we know about her.

It seems odd to put all of these things in (there's a fairly long list of things to support the theory) only to basically go 'just kidding, that was all just a distraction. You don't need special blood to ride a dragon.'

Maybe Tyrion won't be a dragonrider but it sure does seem like it's leading up to that and with Viserion specifically since it makes the most sense for Jon to have Rhaegal.

When it comes to A+J=T it often seems like it boils down to people simply not liking it as opposed to it being about the evidence not being there. It's fair enough if people don't like the theory but I disagree with the idea that there isn't a fair amount of evidence to support it.

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The population on Dragonstone could very be completely descended from dragonlords for all we know. We don't even know whether the Valyrians did allow the people who lived there before their coming (if anyone lived on that island at all) to stay. All the successful dragonseeds had dragonlord blood (Addam of Hull) or were Dragonstonians (Nettles, Ulf, Hugh). Among the Dragonstone population dragon blood certainly is much more common than anywhere else in Westeros, especially among the more ancient forebears. No one says that anyone there has dragon blood, but some of them do. And the idea that some wild girl just tamed a dragon with sheep makes no sense at all in a world where dragons are confirmed to be only controlled by some incestuous sorcerer lords...

Ah yes. Who could forget all that extensive research and experiments done on the subject, with all those non-Valyrians all over Westeros who were asked to try to tame and ride dragons, and all those who were given dragon eggs as children to try to bond with them, just like Targaryens do. All those numerous examples of failure of non-Targs to tame dragons indeed constituted the required statistical sample that can allow us to tell with absolute certainty that nobody without Targaryen blood can possibly tame and ride a dragon...

Oh, wait...

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I especially agree with the above. I have never understood the idea that Tyrion being Aerys's son would somehow destroy or invalidate the Tywin/Tyrion relationship. To me that's basically the same as saying that Rhaegar being Jon's father somehow invalidates the father son relationship that Jon and Ned had. Jon is still Ned's son even if Rhaegar is his biological father and I feel the same about Tyrion and Tywin. Tyrion is like Tywin because Tywin is the only parent he's ever had. Tywin raised him and because of the way Tywin treated Tyrion, Tyrion was the one who tried to be most like Tywin because he was always seeking his approval.

Because there is almost no relationship between Tywin and Tyrion. Only hate. The only thing that connects them is biological. Tywin hated Tyrion but was forced to tolerate him because Tyrion was his son. And the whole irony was that Tyrion was the one who is the most similar to Tywin but Tywin refused to see this because Tyrion was a dwarf. This irony dies if Tyrion is not Tywin's son. The connection between them is dead because Tyrion did not kill his father, he killed a man who abused him for his entire life. Tywin's hatred towards Tyrion because Tyrion is dwarf stops being relevant as well. The whole dynamic between Tyrion and Tywin just dies.

The situation with Jon is not even comparable. Jon not being Ned's son will not drastically change their dynamic because it is not on what Jon's character is based on.

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Cas Stark, yes Tyrion can "choose." Biology isn't as big a deal because you know what? He's never going to know for sure. No DNA tests in Westeros. Even if the readers know, Tyrion doesn't necessarily get that information.

But, again, choose what? Why would he "choose" to be the son of the man he hated and murdered, choose to be a kinslayer who committed patricide? LOL.

I mean, look, GRRM may do it, obviously all this Johanna stuff was created to fuel speculation and/or create more of a foundation if you believe the theory, but it doesn't mean it will not be, in my humble opinion, brutally stupid, terrible writing and a ruination of that part of his story if it turns out to be true.

No, there is no DNA in Westeros, but they have calendars, and ya know, the 'seed is strong'....people have family traits and resemblances, purple eyes, silver hair and so on.

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(Snickers)



I had suspected for a while that Joanna and Aerys did the deed.



As to Aerys, what an a**hole. He's real shitty to his wife ("I appear to have married the wrong woman," locking her up in Maegor's holdfast so she wouldn't commit adultery, hypocrite) to his Hand (snide comments he makes about Joanna), etc. Then again he was mad.


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Actually, I pity Aerys. He was clearly suffering from a physical affliction, and was in need of doctor, not lickspittles, and it was not all that worse until the children thing really got to him. He killed some people, but he felt remorse back then, and did never show any sadistic tendencies until way after Duskendale.


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