Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[Wouter]

It was who gave them their names, he stated his father. He would never give a direct answer.

Why would any of them do that? Say Tyrion and his stunted legs find away to ride a dragon(I doubt it but lets play along) they could easily and far more likely point out he had Targ blood in his ancestry, and with someone like Aegon IV walking around in the past, that is always possibility.

As to the last; sure, that's why GRRM and co missed the ample opportunities to point out a Lannister mistress of Aegon IV or of other Targs, only to focus on the nature of the relationship between Joanna, Tywin and Aerys instead...

As for the first: if you feel Martin would never give a direct answer, why are you convinced he did give an indirect answer (well before he would put fuel on the fire with Barristan's thoughts in ADWD and with the Worldbook) while replying to a different question? Either Martin deliberately answered that way on purpose (hence he was aware he was revealing Tywin as Tyrion's biological father) or he just happened to phrase it in a way that wasn't really intended to imply anything about Tywin/Tyrion, yet may come over as such. If the former is correct, then presumably he would not have a problem to confirm what he already gave away 10 years ago.

[butterbumps!]

Tywin not being sure, with Tyrion being in reality is true son, is marginally better than Tyrion as a secret Targ, and is consistent with his in book contradictory statements.....I don't much like turning Joanna Lannister who previously came off as a solid, capable woman, so capable in fact that she could do what nobody else could, reign in Twyin....into a victim. And while it does make many of Tywin's actions more understandable and adds complexity, it also turns him too, into a victim.

Well, I think it opens the conversation to look at Tywin's ambivalence more closely.

How much of Tywin's uncertainty is genuine heartbreak, versus how much is wishful thinking in light of Tyrion's physical imperfection? Does he cling to that seed of doubt as a conscience salve? I bet it's a tremendous conflict for him-- on one hand hating the idea that he was cuckholded, and on the other, hoping it's true as it makes Tyrion not his seed. Would Tywin still have "doubts" had Tyrion looked like Jaime? Had he been certain Tyrion was his, would he have truly treated him better, even if Tyrion's appearance was as it was (I doubt this one)? I think it's still very twisted, but I think it renders the dynamic a little more complex-- at least in terms of Tywin's inner conflict.

[Cas Stark]

Well, I think it opens the conversation to look at Tywin's ambivalence more closely.

How much of Tywin's uncertainty is genuine heartbreak, versus how much is wishful thinking in light of Tyrion's physical imperfection? Does he cling to that seed of doubt as a conscience salve? I bet it's a tremendous conflict for him-- on one hand hating the idea that he was cuckholded, and on the other, hoping it's true as it makes Tyrion not his seed. Would Tywin still have "doubts" had Tyrion looked like Jaime? Had he been certain Tyrion was his, would he have truly treated him better, even if Tyrion's appearance was as it was (I doubt this one)? I think it's still very twisted, but I think it renders the dynamic a little more complex-- at least in terms of Tywin's inner conflict.

I agree. It also puts the Tysha rape in a different context, giving him another set of reasons for such an over the top "sharp lesson" and for taking the added step of forcing his alleged son into participation....he's punishing Tyrion for what Aerys did to him and presumably Joanna.

I just am not thrilled with this 'everyone is a victim'...Tywin, while still a ruthless asshole, is a victim. Joanna, now she's a victim, if it was rape, a serious victim, if it was in any way consensual then she is still sort of victimized by being publicly humiliated post/affair by Aerys, and Tywin is even MORE of a victim, and then Tyrion, still a victim but even more so since his victimization is multi layered, his father hates him for a whole host of reasons of which he had no clue....

I still prefer the original version of Tywin simply not being able to deal with having a son who was a dwarf, but this version, with Tyrion being Tywin's son and Tywin not sure is better than Tyrion as the son of Aerys.

[Ser Creighton]

I'm not sure I understand a lot of the contention.

We already have the "secret Targ raised by an adoptive father" angle with Jon and Ned. And it's actually developed in the case of the Jon-Ned plotline, whereas, no such development exists for A+J=T. A+J=T also doesn't serve to explain anything that would be otherwise inexplicable like R+L=J. Without R+L=J, there's no reason why Ned would have never told Jon or Cat about Jon's mother. No such outstanding questions like this are answered by an A+J=T revelation.

Martin's put in all this work developing R+L=J. To make a second main character also a secret offspring of the previous dynasty (especially with little development toward this revelation, and not setting up that revelation as being crucial to anything previously developed) makes absolutely no sense.

The idea of A+J=T being objectively true interferes with R+L=J, the Dany-Aegon-Jon dynamic, and of course, Tyrion and Tywin's relationship.

But the idea of Tyrion being Tywin's true son (biologically and otherwise), yet offering Tywin enough doubt to question this, adds productive complexity to, rather than distraction from, those points.

That Tyrion is Tywin's son, but Tywin is ambivalent about whether this is truly the case, is what's in dialogue with the rest of the book. There was already sufficient reason to understand Tywin's hatred of Tyrion, but Tywin's potential uncertainty about this makes it that much more poignant. As such, it serves to foil-- not compete with-- Ned's relationship to Jon (and even Cat's relationship to Jon): Ned knows Jon is not his son, but raises him as such, whereas Tywin's ambivalence toward his physically imperfect biological son is exacerbated by his uncertainty that Tyrion may not be his. It multiplies the meaning of Tyrion's "snarling amongst the dragons:" Tyrion's impacted the "dragons" since the moment he was conceived in light of how Tywin's relations with Aerys shaped the course of Targ history.

I'm with those who have said that the real discussion here is about Tywin's uncertainty about this. That's the aspect of this that's in conversation with the rest of the story.

Don't we have two secret Targ plot lines who were raised by adoptive fathers with Aegon. Fake or not, that is his story.

Darry was raising Dany but died, but it was an adoptive parent role. Known factor.

Jon and Ned, though Jon does not know the truth.

Aegon, who may also not know the truth, but neither does JonCon at least I don't think he does or he is in denial.

Tyrion, for arguments sake Tywin would not know the truth.

Dany is the only one of those 4 that would be a known factor.

Evidence from WoW and the World book now seem to suggest at the very least Martin wants it hinted that he is a Targ, weather it's a red herring or the truth I am not sure if we will ever find out. But don't you think he is hinting at it a bit?

When someone writes a theory with no knowledge of the future or what it may hold for the character. And then two books come out heavily supporting said theory. Maybe it should get a little more attention. Two major arguments against it were Joanna was not in KL and she would never sleep with anyone else. Yet the world books shows she was there at the perfect time and suggests she had an affair with Aerys. Even in the heavily biased Tywin section that is misnamed Aerys II Martin made sure those hints existed. Now why he is doing it I can't say, but it does appear he is doing it.

What Dany, Jon, Aegon dynamic are you hinting at? Political?

[Lord Varys]

Tywin will not be an important character in the remainder of the books. He may have been uncertain, but we'll learn the truth. However I'm not so sure he was merely uncertain. He could have been pretty damn sure that Tyrion was not his. Just as he must have been pretty damn sure that Jaime was the father of Cersei's children.

Young Tywin was effectively an Ellyn Reyne in regards to House Targaryen. He served as Egg's page, and apparently wanted nothing more than to be closer to the magical Targaryens (or what they stood for). Nothing illustrates this more than Tywin's decision to take upon the debts of the Crown upon himself, something he never even considers doing for his own grandson(s).

In that regard, it is not unlikely that Tywin knew what happened between Joanna and Aerys in 272 AC. Not to mention again that he must have known that Aerys was there first.

And whatever idolized picture some people may have Joanna and her relationship to Tywin is not based on textual evidence. It is evident that he was very much in love with her, but it is not confirmed whether she had the same feelings. From what we know now, it is clear that she either felt attracted to Aerys, or at least feigned such an attraction for some reason.

As to the Targaryen angle of this whole thing:

The series really is composed as a Targaryen restoration or renaissance of some sort. We have Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen, and then at least two hidden dragons popping up (Bloodraven and Aegon). Surely there can be another 'hidden dragon', this one actually a bastard (like Bloodraven) disguised as legitimate son - the opposite of Jon - would come as no real surprise.

[Wmarshal]

As to the last; sure, that's why GRRM and co missed the ample opportunities to point out a Lannister mistress of Aegon IV or of other Targs, only to focus on the nature of the relationship between Joanna, Tywin and Aerys instead...

As for the first: if you feel Martin would never give a direct answer, why are you convinced he did give an indirect answer (well before he would put fuel on the fire with Barristan's thoughts in ADWD and with the Worldbook) while replying to a different question? Either Martin deliberately answered that way on purpose (hence he was aware he was revealing Tywin as Tyrion's biological father) or he just happened to phrase it in a way that wasn't really intended to imply anything about Tywin/Tyrion, yet may come over as such. If the former is correct, then presumably he would not have a problem to confirm what he already gave away 10 years ago.

Well seeing how Aegon took Buterwell's daughters and they were not considered mistresses, I don't see how a man who reportedly slept with 900 women is going to out the list of reasons.

Because the indirect answer was easy to see, He used Tyrion's and Dany's naming to separate Jon. He would be a outright liar if he said his father named him when his father did not.

[Cas Stark]

Tywin will not be an important character in the remainder of the books. He may have been uncertain, but we'll learn the truth. However I'm not so sure he was merely uncertain. He could have been pretty damn sure that Tyrion was not his. Just as he must have been pretty damn sure that Jaime was the father of Cersei's children.

Young Tywin was effectively an Ellyn Reyne in regards to House Targaryen. He served as Egg's page, and apparently wanted nothing more than to be closer to the magical Targaryens (or what they stood for). Nothing illustrates this more than Tywin's decision to take upon the debts of the Crown upon himself, something he never even considers doing for his own grandson(s).

In that regard, it is not unlikely that Tywin knew what happened between Joanna and Aerys in 272 AC. Not to mention again that he must have known that Aerys was there first.

And whatever idolized picture some people may have Joanna and her relationship to Tywin is not based on textual evidence. It is evident that he was very much in love with her, but it is not confirmed whether she had the same feelings. From what we know now, it is clear that she either felt attracted to Aerys, or at least feigned such an attraction for some reason.

As to the Targaryen angle of this whole thing:

The series really is composed as a Targaryen restoration or renaissance of some sort. We have Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen, and then at least two hidden dragons popping up (Bloodraven and Aegon). Surely there can be another 'hidden dragon', this one actually a bastard (like Bloodraven) disguised as legitimate son - the opposite of Jon - would come as no real surprise.

It starts to seem that way, and that the real red herring is all the attention paid to the Stark family when the story and the author's interest lies with the blood of old Valyria.

[Wmarshal]

Tywin will not be an important character in the remainder of the books. He may have been uncertain, but we'll learn the truth. However I'm not so sure he was merely uncertain. He could have been pretty damn sure that Tyrion was not his. Just as he must have been pretty damn sure that Jaime was the father of Cersei's children.

Young Tywin was effectively an Ellyn Reyne in regards to House Targaryen. He served as Egg's page, and apparently wanted nothing more than to be closer to the magical Targaryens (or what they stood for). Nothing illustrates this more than Tywin's decision to take upon the debts of the Crown upon himself, something he never even considers doing for his own grandson(s).

In that regard, it is not unlikely that Tywin knew what happened between Joanna and Aerys in 272 AC. Not to mention again that he must have known that Aerys was there first.

And whatever idolized picture some people may have Joanna and her relationship to Tywin is not based on textual evidence. It is evident that he was very much in love with her, but it is not confirmed whether she had the same feelings. From what we know now, it is clear that she either felt attracted to Aerys, or at least feigned such an attraction for some reason.

As to the Targaryen angle of this whole thing:

The series really is composed as a Targaryen restoration or renaissance of some sort. We have Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen, and then at least two hidden dragons popping up (Bloodraven and Aegon). Surely there can be another 'hidden dragon', this one actually a bastard (like Bloodraven) disguised as legitimate son - the opposite of Jon - would come as no real surprise.

Tywin is very much important who he was is what makes Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei who they are and drives them to their paths.

Tywin wasn't obessed with them, he was Aerys friend and knight Aerys himself, for all you obsession seems to ignore he was perpared to leave his office when Aerys made a remark on her, as well as the time he was prepared to let him die in Duskendale.

From what we know, it looked like Aerys loved her, nothing saying she did, he humiliated her and Tywin.

Aegon. There we go.

[butterbumps!]

I agree. It also puts the Tysha rape in a different context, giving him another set of reasons for such an over the top "sharp lesson" and for taking the added step of forcing his alleged son into participation....he's punishing Tyrion for what Aerys did to him and presumably Joanna.

I just am not thrilled with this 'everyone is a victim'...Tywin, while still a ruthless asshole, is a victim. Joanna, now she's a victim, if it was rape, a serious victim, if it was in any way consensual then she is still sort of victimized by being publicly humiliated post/affair by Aerys, and Tywin is even MORE of a victim, and then Tyrion, still a victim but even more so since his victimization is multi layered, his father hates him for a whole host of reasons of which he had no clue....

I still prefer the original version of Tywin simply not being able to deal with having a son who was a dwarf, but this version, with Tyrion being Tywin's son and Tywin not sure is better than Tyrion as the son of Aerys.

I tend to agree about feeling personally conflicted about rounding out Tywin's potential "victimization" in this. Is it actually even definitive that he was cuckholded? That could be something of a paranoid figment of an assault to his ego in the first place. I still think it's possible none of this actually happened, but that the feared ego assault in terms of Aerys' behavior (potentially unconsummated) toward Joanna was blown out of proportion in his mind such that he wasn't a victim of anything except his own paranoia. I think that's actually fairly in line with Tywin's character-- he doesn't handle slights well, to put it mildly.

Don't we have two secret Targ plot lines who were raised by adoptive fathers with Aegon. Fake or not, that is his story.

Darry was raising Dany but died, but it was an adoptive parent role. Known factor.

Jon and Ned, though Jon does not know the truth.

Aegon, who may also not know the truth, but neither does JonCon at least I don't think he does or he is in denial.

Tyrion, for arguments sake Tywin would not know the truth.

Dany is the only one of those 4 that would be a known factor.

Evidence from WoW and the World book now seem to suggest at the very least Martin wants it hinted that he is a Targ, weather it's a red herring or the truth I am not sure if we will ever find out. But don't you think he is hinting at it a bit?

When someone writes a theory with no knowledge of the future or what it may hold for the character. And then two books come out heavily supporting said theory. Maybe it should get a little more attention. Two major arguments against it were Joanna was not in KL and she would never sleep with anyone else. Yet the world books shows she was there at the perfect time and suggests she had an affair with Aerys. Even in the heavily biased Tywin section that is misnamed Aerys II Martin made sure those hints existed. Now why he is doing it I can't say, but it does appear he is doing it.

What Dany, Jon, Aegon dynamic are you hinting at? Political?

Aegon isn't a main character in the way Jon and Tyrion are, and 5 books haven't given us thorough development of his relationship to his "father" the way Jon-Ned and Tyrion-Tywin were developed.

Further, Aegon's parentage thing is basically the inverse of Jon's. Where Jon is Rhaegar's son, (probably "legit," imo, in so far as I think they married) raised as though he's someone else's bastard, Aegon was raised to believe he was Rhaegar's legit son, but is someone else's "bastard" in truth (I'm being cavalier in the wording; I think he's part of a bastard branch).

The dyamic I keep pointing to is this: Dany is the undisputed known Targ of the main branch. Aegon is coming to us as a dragon of the main Targ branch, with a presumably better claim than Dany according to inheritance convention, though is probably of a bastard branch in truth. Both of these are the "Targs" that people in story will see as "dragons." Jon is a "Targ" to the readers, and according to convention, likely the one of the 3 with the best Targ "claim." But to everyone in-story, he's some bastard, and he'll neither embrace, nor be recognized for, his Targ lineage.

[Maia]

Tywin will not be an important character in the remainder of the books. He may have been uncertain, but we'll learn the truth. However I'm not so sure he was merely uncertain. He could have been pretty damn sure that Tyrion was not his.

Yes, as I have said in another thread:

To be fair, whether Tyrion is his or not, Tywin likely had as much or more "proof" as Ned had re: the bastardy of Cersei's children, minus Cersei's confession. Tywin was a cerebral and methodical character, he would have researched his suspicions, and even if he had no bastards himself, he would have compared Tyrion's features to those of the children of his and Joanna's siblings. And to those of Targaryens whom he and Pycelle have seen, including all those babies of Aerys's who were stillborn and died early. Heck, he may have consulted the very same book that Jon Arryn and Ned did!

And, of course, he would have never gone public with any of it anyway, as it would have irrevocably tarnished both his and Joanna's reputation.

The series really is composed as a Targaryen restoration or renaissance of some sort. We have Jon Snow, Daenerys Targaryen, and then at least two hidden dragons popping up (Bloodraven and Aegon). Surely there can be another 'hidden dragon', this one actually a bastard (like Bloodraven) disguised as legitimate son - the opposite of Jon - would come as no real surprise.

Well, it could be the last hurrah and going out with a bang, too ;). But the whole "too many Targaryens" argument never made any sense, as it has been clear for some time that there are a lot of people with Targaryen blood around. Even before Bloodraven's and Aegon's reveals, there had been the Martells and even that Longwaters guy. Not to mention some strong hints that Egg's brothers and sisters had more children, legitimate or not.

And OTOH, we have no less than 4 hidden Starks, when they are supposed to be extinct save for Sansa, and it doesn't seem to bother anybody...

[butterbumps!]

But the whole "too many Targaryens" argument never made any sense, as it has been clear for some time that there are a lot of people with Targaryen blood around.

The issue really isn't "too many Targs." It could come to pass that half the minor characters in this story are "dragonseed" descendants and it wouldn't interfere with anything.

The larger issue is that Jon and Tyrion are both main characters (i.e. highly developed characters), and in both of their arcs, their relationships to their fathers has been developed in great detail. Yet, it's only in Jon's arc, and the overwhelming R+L=J clues scattered throughout multiple arcs, that the issue of a secret Targ parentage is developed, and further, becomes a critical explanation for other plot points. Understanding Jon's relationship to Ned, and Ned's relationship to Cat depends on it. Looking forward, this revelation also underscores what might be the very central theme to the entire series-- where power resides.

There's a vast chasm of difference between the way R+L has been developed versus how A+J has been "developed" (and I say "developed" charitably, as it really hasn't been). For two main characters, both of whom have arcs with highly developed father-son narrative, the idea of A+J=T comes across as worse than an after-thought. It's interruptive to the secret Targ plot that's actually had a lot of effort devoted to it, and doesn't serve as a critical hinge to anything else in the story.

[Wouter]

Well seeing how Aegon took Buterwell's daughters and they were not considered mistresses, I don't see how a man who reportedly slept with 900 women is going to out the list of reasons.

Which would be fine if Tyrion was a Butterwell, but he is not. And so we are back to square one: when/if Tyrion tames a dragon, Dany will want to find any reason she can to name him a dragonseed, much like Rhaenyra did. And she is not going to cling to a completely secret and unrecorded fling of Aegon IV (nor is the author going that route because he pointedly chose not to have Elio and Linda mention it), because she wouldn't know about it, she will point to the Aerys/Joanna affair that Barristan (or Moqorro, or Marwin, or even Jorah) would be all to glad to tell her about.

[Wouter]

And, of course, he would have never gone public with any of it anyway, as it would have irrevocably tarnished both his and Joanna's reputation.

There's a weird symmetry between Aerys keeping Tywin around as Hand for years after he started mistrusting him, to the point that he was so afraid of his own Hand that he would only meet in the presence of 7 armed KG, to Tywin keeping Tyrion around for years and even making the occasional use of him as an officer instead of sending him to the Citadel. In both cases, the "why" is hard to fathom and in Tyrion's case it could be a misplaced revenge-by-proxy on Aerys. If so, that backfired rather spectacularly.

[Lord Varys]

I did not mean that a Targaryen has to sit on the Iron Throne in the end. But the very concept of 'War of the Five Kings first, second Dance of the Dragons later' strongly suggest that House Targaryen will come to the fore, possibly with multiple claimants, not just Aegon vs. Dany.

Tywin became Aerys' friend because he spend part of his childhood and youth at Egg's court. Aegon V would have been the other role model Tywin had, a decisive and stern king. Tywin may have not shared Egg's hunger for reforms, but I'm pretty sure he is the man he is trying emulate later on - certainly not Tytos.

And Tywin remains a Targaryen fan boy until the very end. He only abandons them in his heart after Rhaegar's death, we get as much from Kevan's Epilogue.

And, really, Tywin would actually be much more nicer and human character if he practically did the same thing Ned did to Jon: raise another man's son as his own. Not to mention that Tywin was then not this completely inhuman guy who would actually kill a child of his late wife (as many people seem to suggest he would have done if he had been sure that he was Aerys' bastard).

Just because Tywin was much better at hiding his knowledge - or that George put a lot of subtler clues in there that Tyrion might not be his son - does not mean that it is not true. The Jon riddle is kind of obvious, since Jon's mother is introduced as a riddle, whereas stuff is a lot more complex if mother/father acknowledge as son as their legitimate child. For instance, Jace, Luke, and Joff would have encountered quite a lot of difficulties trying to uncover their own parentage if they had developed doubt, if Rhaenyra, Laenor, and Harwin had refused to talk (assuming that they had been all alive at a time when the boys had started to ask questions). Why should it be different with Tyrion?

[Wmarshal]

Which would be fine if Tyrion was a Butterwell, but he is not. And so we are back to square one: when/if Tyrion tames a dragon, Dany will want to find any reason she can to name him a dragonseed, much like Rhaenyra did. And she is not going to cling to a completely secret and unrecorded fling of Aegon IV (nor is the author going that route because he pointedly chose not to have Elio and Linda mention it), because she wouldn't know about it, she will point to the Aerys/Joanna affair that Barristan (or Moqorro, or Marwin, or even Jorah) would be all to glad to tell her about.

Which would be fine if he only had sex with a Butterwell, but he did not, instead he had sex with every women he could lay his eyes on in the SK. Why is going to care so much if he is a dragonseed? She has no idea of paternity of his house or Barristan for that matter. THey would just assume he has blood of the dragon. There is no record of Joanna sleeping with Aerys. She doesn't even know Aerys slept with Joanna, Barristan knows as much as he took some liberties during the bedding.

[Arya Stark Rules]

Which would be fine if Tyrion was a Butterwell, but he is not. And so we are back to square one: when/if Tyrion tames a dragon, Dany will want to find any reason she can to name him a dragonseed, much like Rhaenyra did. And she is not going to cling to a completely secret and unrecorded fling of Aegon IV (nor is the author going that route because he pointedly chose not to have Elio and Linda mention it), because she wouldn't know about it, she will point to the Aerys/Joanna affair that Barristan (or Moqorro, or Marwin, or even Jorah) would be all to glad to tell her about.

That's actually a possible way I could see the story going, if Tyrion tames a dragon, Barristan would be the first to speculate on him being Aerys bastard, even if he actually is Tywin's son.

[Chaircat Meow]

Is it actually even definitive that he was cuckholded? That could be something of a paranoid figment of an assault to his ego in the first place.

Absolutely nothing is definitive about this no. I find it unlikely, given the way the world book reads, that anyone would suppose Joanna would, um, consensually couple with Aerys in 272. He's deliberately insulting, is very drunk and only invited her to humiliate her husband. And I think Tywin would likely know if Aerys had his wife against her will (a hard thing for Joanna to lie about). So I doubt this was a paranoid imagining.

I think that's actually fairly in line with Tywin's character-- he doesn't handle slights well, to put it mildly.

Tywin reacts badly to insults, but he doesn't imagine them when they don't exist. Plenty of people did try and insult him deliberately, as we learned.

edit: also if this is supposed to add poignancy to the Tywin-Tyrion dynamic it doesn't really work if it is all the product of paranoia.

[Wmarshal]

I did not mean that a Targaryen has to sit on the Iron Throne in the end. But the very concept of 'War of the Five Kings first, second Dance of the Dragons later' strongly suggest that House Targaryen will come to the fore, possibly with multiple claimants, not just Aegon vs. Dany.

Tywin became Aerys' friend because he spend part of his childhood and youth at Egg's court. Aegon V would have been the other role model Tywin had, a decisive and stern king. Tywin may have not shared Egg's hunger for reforms, but I'm pretty sure he is the man he is trying emulate later on - certainly not Tytos.

And Tywin remains a Targaryen fan boy until the very end. He only abandons them in his heart after Rhaegar's death, we get as much from Kevan's Epilogue.

And, really, Tywin would actually be much more nicer and human character if he practically did the same thing Ned did to Jon: raise another man's son as his own. Not to mention that Tywin was then not this completely inhuman guy who would actually kill a child of his late wife (as many people seem to suggest he would have done if he had been sure that he was Aerys' bastard).

Because his dad made him. Aegon was far from a stern king, he let his sons to shit on his plans time and time again.

Then murders Rhaegar's son and daughter.

Save that is not Tywin Lannister. He is a man who had his father's great loved dragged about naked when he died. He had babes killed and women tongue cut out, daughterinlaws raped, he is no man of forgiveness

[Mithras]

Something I posted in another thread.

[Mithras]

A+J=T theory has to be comparable to R+L=J theory and they both have to have a similar construction. As I said before, the fact that there are over a hundred R+L=J threads whereas there are no more than a handful of A+J=T threads show something. Another important point is that George fanned the flames of A+J=T in ADwD and in TWOIAF whereas R+L=J is can be proven with AGoT only.

Under these circumstances, I take A+J=T as a red herring which will openly be declared in TWoW but later we will understand that it is not the case.