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LordBloodraven

Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

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How?

If anything, the relationship between Aerys and Jaime could only make one think the opposite. By contrast, there's no indication whatsoever that Aerys ever said anything about Tyrion or took any interest in him.

Aerys not approving Cersei's and Rhaegar's marriage because his son could not marry a daughter of his servant certainly indicates that he did not think that Cersei is his daughter, and by extension that Jaime is his son.

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The revelations are making me consider for a moment the immense satisfaction Tywin must have experienced at the outcome of Robert's Rebellion. Far from being a reluctant participant, he had perhaps the greatest and most enduring motivation to bring death and destruction to Aerys's House.

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Aerys not approving Cersei's and Rhaegar's marriage because his son could not marry a daughter of his servant certainly indicates that he did not think that Cersei is his daughter, and by extension that Jaime is his son.

He would probably still not want her married to Rhaegar if she was a bastard.

Anyway, I don't think any of Joanna's kids are Aerys'. What I really don't get is how this is supposed to be evidence that Tyrion was Aerys' son.

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The revelations are making me consider for a moment the immense satisfaction Tywin must have experienced at the outcome of Robert's Rebellion. Far from being a reluctant participant, he had perhaps the greatest and most enduring motivation to bring death and destruction to Aerys's House.

The fact that Tywin only joined the rebellion when he realized the rebels were winning doesn't fit that theory.

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The build up to Tyrion's revelation as a Targ bastard is continuing smoothly with the World Book's contents.



Rather interesting that Joanna happens to be in King's Landing just when Tyrion is conceived...



The momentum is building.


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Anarra



Tywin is a meticulous planner. If he was going to make that move, it would be when he was assured of victory. Also, Aerys had Jaime as hostage. Hence Tywin using guile to enter King's Landing even at the end, pretending to be coming to Aerys's aid.


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I'm not saying that Aerys forced Joanna into having sex with him. For all we know, Joanna may have had willingly had sex with Aerys; or Joanna may not have had sex with Aerys at all (we don't know that she did). We have no idea how Joanna felt about Aerys or his interest in her, or what she did about it. All we know is that Aerys wanted her and made no secret of it, and that Rhaella sent her away. And as a matter of fact, we don't even know how Rhaella felt about Joanna, if she really blamed her, or dismissed her simply to keep Aerys away from her.

My point is: there is nothing in that quoted text that proves how Joanna felt or what she did, either way. Rhaella dismissing her is certainly no proof that Joanna was willingly having an affair with Aerys.

Fair enough. Nothing proving that it was one-sided too.

A couple additional relevant tidbits:

Tywin's Uncle Tion was apparently none too fertile. Ellen Reyne never conceived by him, but bore three children to her second husband, a Tarbeck. (Does House Lannister have a history of male fertility problems?)

Yandel states that he considers GM Pycelle to be far and away the most reliable source for the reign of Aerys II. We know that Pycelle was a Lannister toady for a very long time. The closer Yandel's account gets to present times, the less reliable we should consider it. It is certainly very pro-Tywin.

TWoIaF certainly increases the chances that A+J=C&J (or =C, or =J), or A+J=T, but nothing is proven one way or another. It could all be red herrings.

For me it is the opposite: TWOIAF decreases these chances.

Exactly. It seems clear that Tywin is the true father of Joanna's children. For Jaime and Cersei, we have the timeframe and for Tyrion, Aerys quote about "the gods humbling Tywin for his pride, by giving him a monster and taking from him the nicest flower"

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A couple additional relevant tidbits:

Tywin's Uncle Tion was apparently none too fertile. Ellen Reyne never conceived by him, but bore three children to her second husband, a Tarbeck. (Does House Lannister have a history of male fertility problems?).

Ellen had only been married to Tion for a year. It took 7 years for Tytos and Jeyne Marbrand to produce their first child, but after that they started popping like from an assembly line. It happens. Lannisters seem to be rather fertile in general, which is why they are quite numerous.

It is interesting that Joanna actually hadn't been at court as a child, nor did she come there together with Tywin. We don't know her age, alas, but it is curious that apparently she had been old enough for the rumors of her sleeping with Aerys the night of Jaehaerys's coronation to be feasible... Yet it has been 4 more years before she married Tywin. Nor is it mentioned whether she and Tywin had been betrothed from childhood.

I mean, in such a case, one would have expected them to marry once Tywin earned his knighthood and Joanna was considered "old enough" for marriage, which would have been from 14 years onwards. Well, it is plausible that Tywin perhaps didn't want to marry her before going to war, as that might have ruined her chances if he was killed. Or before he successfully dealt with Reynes and Tarbecks, ditto. But why wait afterwards? Hm....

Also, did Doran's mother serve Rhaella _after_ having Doran? Because he is 10 years older than Oberyn, right? And Oberyn was 40 when he died in 300 AC. Which means that Doran must have been born in 250. Yet, his mother was Rhaella's lady-in waiting in 259 - 263, it seems. Which is a bit odd. Was her husband on the Small Council, maybe?

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There are lots of hints in there:

1. Aerys was a charming guy, he seduced his various mistresses, he did apparently not coerce them into having sex with him. Especially not 15 year old Aerys in 259, the night of his father's coronation. That could even have been Joanna comforting the new Prince of Dragonstone after the Tragedy of Summerhall.

There was an affair, that much is certain. Yandel is only trying to dismiss those rumors because Pycelle does, and because Joanna was the mother of the present queen. Pycelle's quote about Tywin not feasting on another man's leaving is also nothing but fan boy talk. We know that he slept with Shae after all - and this, in his mind, was most likely some sort of payback against Aerys, with Tyrion serving as a Aerys impostor. We have to keep in mind that by robbing Tywin of Jaime Aerys effectively had made his bastard heir to Casterly Rock, and Tywin had to continue this fight even after Aerys' death (in ASoS, when Tyrion demanded his 'birth right').

There is also no hint that Tywin did not know about that affair - the premarital sex apparently did not annoy him all that much, it was the stuff later on.

2. Cersei and Jaime are clearly out of the game - a minor doubt may remain, but the relationship between Tywin/Jaime/Cersei and Aerys makes it very clear that Aerys did not assume or consider the possibility that the golden twins were his. And Joanna visited court seldom thereafter, and most likely not shortly after the banishment by the command of the queen. I'd expect her to return more frequently after Aerys/Rhaella's relationship deteriorated around 270s - if she lived long enough.

It is also implied that KL saw Joanna again in 272, because that is also the time when the twins are formally presented there. Aerys, of course met Joanna during his extended stay in the West following Tytos' death in 267, but that did not lead to anything.

3. None of Aerys/Rhaella's children are described in detail, but the chance is not bad that some of them were deformed the way their grandfather Jaehaerys was. Aerys did decree that none of his other children were not his, and that would have been precisely the reason why he did not acknowledge Tyrion as a son.

4. What we know is that Aerys made a mocking question about Joanna's breasts. That suggests that he was still interested in them, and it indicates that this could have been merely the starting point for something else - such as that Aerys took Joanna with him into his bedchamber. Tywin trying to resign over a bad joke does not sound right to me. He suffered much worse over the years.

5. Joanna as a person was most likely not all that much in love with Tywin since she had an affair with the Prince of Dragonstone and the King before her marriage. The fact that she supposedly ruled as Aerys' mistress immediately after his coronation could be a pretty big hint that Tywin's appointment to the office was caused by her, despite the fact that Tywin and Aerys and Steffon were friends since childhood.

I agree with 1). Pycelle cannot be trusted at all concerning Tywin and Aerys.

I really don't think that Tyrion could be Aerys's son. What happened in 272 was just Aerys spiting Tywin. Unless Joanna had a very low self-esteem, she wouldn't go willingly to Aerys after he mocked her in front of the court. Tywin may have suffered worse but this was a jab at his honour, more personal.

Point 5) seems rather illogical. If Joanna did not love Tywin that much, why would she influence Aerys into naming Tywin as Hand. If it was after their marriage, we could think that Aerys named Tywin so that Joanna would remain at court. Otherwise, it doesn't make much sense.

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Also, did Doran's mother serve Rhaella _after_ having Doran? Because he is 10 years older than Oberyn, right? And Oberyn was 40 when he died in 300 AC. Which means that Doran must have been born in 250. Yet, his mother was Rhaella's lady-in waiting in 259 - 263, it seems. Which is a bit odd. Was her husband on the Small Council, maybe?

Wait. This sounds awesome!

Aerys + Doran's Mother = Oberyn + Elia

It makes so much sense!

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Note that Tyrion's rather long list of misfortunes would be made complete by him in fact being the product of rape, which would somehow be fitting with the theme of his life.



So Joanna would not have to have fallen for Aerys' wiles once again, when visiting him in 272. In fact, was this not when Aerys started showing signs of madness, which may well have made him more prone to committing irrational acts such as the violation of the wife of his most powerful bannerman?


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The build up to Tyrion's revelation as a Targ bastard is continuing smoothly with the World Book's contents.

Rather interesting that Joanna happens to be in King's Landing just when Tyrion is conceived...

The momentum is building.

Why would we ever get a definitive answer though? In raising the question and possibility it seems to me GRRM has done his work. So long as there's enough fat there for Dany to believe it and Tyrion to consider it.

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A couple additional relevant tidbits:

Tywin's Uncle Tion was apparently none too fertile. Ellen Reyne never conceived by him, but bore three children to her second husband, a Tarbeck. (Does House Lannister have a history of male fertility problems?)

Yandel states that he considers GM Pycelle to be far and away the most reliable source for the reign of Aerys II. We know that Pycelle was a Lannister toady for a very long time. The closer Yandel's account gets to present times, the less reliable we should consider it. It is certainly very pro-Tywin.

TWoIaF certainly increases the chances that A+J=C&J (or =C, or =J), or A+J=T, but nothing is proven one way or another. It could all be red herrings.

Tytos' brother (Tywin's younger uncle) would beg to differ, with his 8 children :)

For me it is the opposite: TWOIAF decreases these chances.

Agreed :)

4. What we know is that Aerys made a mocking question about Joanna's breasts. That suggests that he was still interested in them, and it indicates that this could have been merely the starting point for something else - such as that Aerys took Joanna with him into his bedchamber. Tywin trying to resign over a bad joke does not sound right to me. He suffered much worse over the years.

If a guy I had had a previous relationship with would insult my appearance like Aerys did to Joanna, I wouldn't want to even see him for quite some time..

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Hmm I am not into Lannister children are Targs theories that much.

But regarding Tyrion, Joanna was in King's Landing, around the time he was conceived. Joanna goes to King's Landing and around year later, out pops Tyrion. Aerys certainly had the motive to do it. Humiliate Tywin, desire for Joanna etc etc.

Still doesn't prove anything, but cannot rule it out.

I think most the resistance comes from the idea that if A+J=T is true, Tyrion has a better claim than Jon.

LOL. In what universe does the third bastard son come before the son of the first son?

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Well, Aerys was the king, and he could be charming and all. He may have even coerced her, we don't really know what happened afterwards.


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LOL no.

If A+J=T is true, Tyrion, as a bastard, has no claim to anything. Not the throne and no Casterly Rock. Even if he were Aerys' younger bastard son and was legitimized (by who?), any son of Rhaegar would come before him.

The resistance to A+J=T comes from the fact that it's a wish fulfillment theory by people who want Tyrion to ride a dragon, and who are convinced that he can't do that without Targ blood (which is unproven), and probably also to make him a speshul secret Targaryen rather than a Lannister. It also comes from the fact that 1) it goes against the ample evidence from the books that Tyrion is very much Tywin's son and has inherited a lot of his traits (while having no similiarities to Aerys or any of the Targs), 2) would invalidate much of Tyrion's arc and his relationship with Tywin, and 3) would validate Tywin Lannister's self-delusions born out of his ableist prejudice against his younger son.

As is Jon is a bastard if R + L = J is true and hence by your rationale he is no claim to anything either. Regardless if Rhaegar and Lyanna married, it is bigamy as Elia was still alive at the time and hence the union would be illegal by the laws of Westeros (regardless that Targs practiced polygamy in the past), therefore by law Jon is still a bastard - just a Targ bastard.

So if all "theories" are true. You have a bastard of Aerys, a bastard of Rheagar, a trueborn girl (Dany) - who cannot inherit by law unless no males coz she is female, and a possible trueborn son of Rheagar, but most likely not, but very hard to prove. Who inherits?

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LOL. In what universe does the third bastard son come before the son of the first son?

I am sorry, in what universe is Jon a legitimate son lol? Anyway this is about Aerys and Joanna and I am getting off topic.

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I am sorry, in what universe is Jon a legitimate son lol? Anyway this is about Aerys and Joanna and I am getting off topic.

I said "son of the first son". I never specified because with Jon, it's unknown. And you can't prove or disprove it, so don't act as if you could.

With Tyrion, he could ONLY be a bastard. Still doesn't change the fact that "son of the first son" comes before "third son" (bastard or not) in every line of succession.

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