Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[oursisthefury69]

The issue really isn't "too many Targs." It could come to pass that half the minor characters in this story are "dragonseed" descendants and it wouldn't interfere with anything.

The larger issue is that Jon and Tyrion are both main characters (i.e. highly developed characters), and in both of their arcs, their relationships to their fathers has been developed in great detail. Yet, it's only in Jon's arc, and the overwhelming R+L=J clues scattered throughout multiple arcs, that the issue of a secret Targ parentage is developed, and further, becomes a critical explanation for other plot points. Understanding Jon's relationship to Ned, and Ned's relationship to Cat depends on it. Looking forward, this revelation also underscores what might be the very central theme to the entire series-- where power resides.

There's a vast chasm of difference between the way R+L has been developed versus how A+J has been "developed" (and I say "developed" charitably, as it really hasn't been). For two main characters, both of whom have arcs with highly developed father-son narrative, the idea of A+J=T comes across as worse than an after-thought. It's interruptive to the secret Targ plot that's actually had a lot of effort devoted to it, and doesn't serve as a critical hinge to anything else in the story.

Dear God, the only difference in the "developement" of each of these theories is that one was actually picked up on and "developed" by people on this cite, and its the same one that was discovered the first time the first person read the first book.

Always funny too to have people talking about the relationship dynamic beytween tyrion and tywin and never akknowledge Jon ad Neds relationship being the same thing.

I love how people cant deny the concept anymore, so now its a matter of "well this is just going to ruin other plots, this doesnt seem like it was developoed from the beginning the same way"

Each mystery has been in play since the beggining of the series. One of them is far more obvious, and all the evidence is primarily in one book this is the one that people talk to death/take some weird personal pride in around here. The other is far more subtle and spited by people on here who never picked up on it because they were busy posting in R+L=J, which has been figured out for 18 years now. But alot of Tyrions evidence actually comes in book 5, and people dont want to aknowledge that they didnt have the whole series figured out, the way everybody thinks they can for some reason around here; which is te main reason you find the propagtion of threories like "jo is all 3 heads" because people think they can figure out the whole series after 5 books, and only care to discuss plain certainty's like Jon being Rhaegars son

[oursisthefury69]

A+J=T theory has to be comparable to R+L=J theory and they both have to have a similar construction. As I said before, the fact that there are over a hundred R+L=J threads whereas there are no more than a handful of A+J=T threads show something. Another important point is that George fanned the flames of A+J=T in ADwD and in TWOIAF whereas R+L=J is can be proven with AGoT only.

Under these circumstances, I take A+J=T as a red herring which will openly be declared in TWoW but later we will understand that it is not the case.

REALLLY? You think this is worthy of bein in more than 1 thread lol

Yet again this has got to be the most overall ignorant and forum-biased post ive ever seen.

The standard for truth in the series is NOT the frequency of which people speak towards something on these boards. The reason there's over 100 of those threads is because people want to talk to death something discovered byh the first person to red the first book their first time.

THERE was 1 single thread ever made on here where somebobdy picked up on Aegon surviving the sack before book 5. (aware of feagon, its not the point, he is passed off as having survived and there are clues througut the first 4 books which literally only 1 person ever noticed)

This is clearly irrefutable of evidence of your entire post being the opposite of the truth, yet continue to post it

Your whole equation of forum thread frequency= theory validity is so misplaced and entirely indicative of everything wrong wtht these foums

[Chaircat Meow]

The standard for truth in the series is NOT the frequency of which people speak towards something on these boards.

If it were we'd know Stannis was the most important character in the novels.

[Cas Stark]

Dear God, the only difference in the "developement" of each of these theories is that one was actually picked up on and "developed" by people on this cite, and its the same one that was discovered the first time the first person read the first book.

Always funny too to have people talking about the relationship dynamic beytween tyrion and tywin and never akknowledge Jon ad Neds relationship being the same thing.

I love how people cant deny the concept anymore, so now its a matter of "well this is just going to ruin other plots, this doesnt seem like it was developoed from the beginning the same way"

Each mystery has been in play since the beggining of the series. One of them is far more obvious, and all the evidence is primarily in one book this is the one that people talk to death/take some weird personal pride in around here. The other is far more subtle and spited by people on here who never picked up on it because they were busy posting in R+L=J, which has been figured out for 18 years now. But alot of Tyrions evidence actually comes in book 5, and people dont want to aknowledge that they didnt have the whole series figured out, the way everybody thinks they can for some reason around here; which is te main reason you find the propagtion of threories like "jo is all 3 heads" because people think they can figure out the whole series after 5 books, and only care to discuss plain certainty's like Jon being Rhaegars son

Some people just think that Tyrion as a secret Targ is a bad choice. Not all of the author's choices have been good. If Tyrion is a secret Targ, that will be one of them, right along with giving Quentyn, Damphair and Oakheart a POV and writing "where do whores go" 10000 times.

[Mithras]

So what, George did a shitty job in implying A+J from the beginning and he is covering it up in these last books?

[Lord Varys]

Some mysteries can be more mysterious than others. GRRM obviously wanted that the reader - like Tyrion - believes that he is the son of Tywin. That's a core part of his personality up to this point. There could not be all that much hints, as Tyrion is way too clever to not figure things out if there had been hints.

And there are clues in AGoT to the contrary. The dragon dreams, the big shadow, Maester Aemon's commentary, the fact that Tywin can't be sure that Tyrion is his son due to Joanna's death - all that is in AGoT.

And this series also has sudden twists from time to time.

I also daresay that Tyrion will not become a great man of any kind if he does not get a dragon and get some new purpose in life. He is an ugly, dwarf without a nose who is hated in Westeros as kinslayer and kingslayer. How the hell could he make a difference in his present state. The Second Sons may be stupid enough to fight for him, but in Westeros no one will declare for or support Tyrion Lannister.

[butterbumps!]

Absolutely nothing is definitive about this no. I find it unlikely, given the way the world book reads, that anyone would suppose Joanna would, um, consensually couple with Aerys in 272. He's deliberately insulting, is very drunk and only invited her to humiliate her husband. And I think Tywin would likely know if Aerys had his wife against her will (a hard thing for Joanna to lie about). So I doubt this was a paranoid imagining.

Tywin reacts badly to insults, but he doesn't imagine them when they don't exist. Plenty of people did try and insult him deliberately, as we learned.

edit: also if this is supposed to add poignancy to the Tywin-Tyrion dynamic it doesn't really work if it is all the product of paranoia.

I agree the paranoia wouldn't. There was definitely a real slight as I understood it. I mean, even without an actual consummation, Tywin suffered a real slight. So I think you're saying that we can easily accept that Joanna was truly raped, in light of how Tywin doesn't imagine slights, and it seemed like the slight was as egregious as a consummation.

I think I may have worded that post kind of poorly. I think what might add some complexity is in Tywin's ambivalence toward Tyrion's being Aerys in light of Aerys' suggestiveness toward Joanna. As in, I was questioning to what extent Tywin was truly, genuinely uncertain about Tyrion's parentage versus how much of it would be Tywin's extremely conflicted wishful thinking.

Dear God, the only difference in the "developement" of each of these theories is that one was actually picked up on and "developed" by people on this cite, and its the same one that was discovered the first time the first person read the first book.

Always funny too to have people talking about the relationship dynamic beytween tyrion and tywin and never akknowledge Jon ad Neds relationship being the same thing.

I love how people cant deny the concept anymore, so now its a matter of "well this is just going to ruin other plots, this doesnt seem like it was developoed from the beginning the same way"

Each mystery has been in play since the beggining of the series. One of them is far more obvious, and all the evidence is primarily in one book this is the one that people talk to death/take some weird personal pride in around here. The other is far more subtle and spited by people on here who never picked up on it because they were busy posting in R+L=J, which has been figured out for 18 years now. But alot of Tyrions evidence actually comes in book 5, and people dont want to aknowledge that they didnt have the whole series figured out, the way everybody thinks they can for some reason around here; which is te main reason you find the propagtion of threories like "jo is all 3 heads" because people think they can figure out the whole series after 5 books, and only care to discuss plain certainty's like Jon being Rhaegars son

If you truly believe that A+J=T has been crafted with the same effort and attention as R+L, then I don't know what to tell you.

I actually did point out the Jon-Ned/ Tyrion-Tywin foil in the very post you quoted (as well as others), so I have no idea why you're smugly claiming that no one talks about this.

I do deny the concept. Frankly, the reason I never devoted much time to this theory was and is because I don't take it seriously My interest here has more to do with the implications of Tywin's attitude toward this.

I also don't know what to tell you if you actually believe that a theory's interaction with the rest of the story makes no difference in terms of whether the theory can be true. By that logic, I should be able to argue that Varys is actually a Nintendo Wii, because it's never been stated otherwise, and apparently, the fact that his being a Nintendo Wii would interfere with basically every plot point doesn't matter.

On the rare occasions I actually commented on this theory, the fact that it doesn't mesh with the rest of the story was my reason, so this isn't some new development in my argumentation. Your post is reading very disingenuously.

[oursisthefury69]

If you truly believe that A+J=T has been crafted with the same effort and attention as R+L, then I don't know what to tell you.

I dont believe it, i know it. Your only right if your defintion of "effort and attention" = more obvious. The hints have been in place since the begining of book 1, if you dont believe that, i dont know what to tell you other than to strap up for a re-read and maybe pay attention to things other than just Jon

[Mithras]

Tyrion does not have dragon dreams for gods sake.

"When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own.”

“You did?” the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

“Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back.” Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. “I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.”

This has nothing in common with Dany's dreams.

[oursisthefury69]

So what, George did a shitty job in implying A+J from the beginning and he is covering it up in these last books?

No, you were incapable of picking up on it from the beginning of the series because your knowledge is limited to the beliefs of these forums

[oursisthefury69]

Tyrion does not have dragon dreams for gods sake.

"When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own.”

“You did?” the boy said suspiciously. Perhaps he thought Tyrion was making fun of him.

“Oh, yes. Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he’s seated on a dragon’s back.” Tyrion pushed the bearskin aside and climbed to his feet. “I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly Rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I’d imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister.”

This has nothing in common with Dany's dreams.

Dude you very fundamentally dont understand things.

"Hey Tyrion doesnt have dragon dreams, here look at this quote of him dreaming of dragons"

[oursisthefury69]

Some mysteries can be more mysterious than others. GRRM obviously wanted that the reader - like Tyrion - believes that he is the son of Tywin. That's a core part of his personality up to this point. There could not be all that much hints, as Tyrion is way too clever to not figure things out if there had been hints.

And there are clues in AGoT to the contrary. The dragon dreams, the big shadow, Maester Aemon's commentary, the fact that Tywin can't be sure that Tyrion is his son due to Joanna's death - all that is in AGoT.

And this series also has sudden twists from time to time.

I also daresay that Tyrion will not become a great man of any kind if he does not get a dragon and get some new purpose in life. He is an ugly, dwarf without a nose who is hated in Westeros as kinslayer and kingslayer. How the hell could he make a difference in his present state. The Second Sons may be stupid enough to fight for him, but in Westeros no one will declare for or support Tyrion Lannister.

Here here

[Mithras]

No, you were incapable of picking up on it from the beginning of the series because your knowledge is limited to the beliefs of these forums

The beliefs of these forums are based on much more careful and gifted readers than I am, and there are many of them. If we all failed to see the clues for A+J=T while we were able to deduce R+L=J and still discussing its details, then we are all fools, or George messed it up, or you are a super genius.

Dude you very fundamentally dont understand things.

"Hey Tyrion doesnt have dragon dreams, here look at this quote of him dreaming of dragons"

dreaming of having dragons (and using them to burn the abusive father/sister) =/= dragon dreams of Targaryens

[butterbumps!]

I dont believe it, i know it. Your only right if your defintion of "effort and attention" = more obvious. The hints have been in place since the begining of book 1, if you dont believe that, i dont know what to tell you other than to strap up for a re-read and maybe pay attention to things other than just Jon

Interestingly enough, in all my obsession over Jon, we even looked at the clear metaphor being drawn between the Lannisters and Targs in the Jon ReRead whenever it came up. For example, at the start of the series, Jon I involves that Winterfell feast, and Jaime's dressed like Rhaegar. Jon even remarks on how Jaime looked like a true king. So I guess this means Jaime= Rhaegar, or, at the very least, one of Aerys' dragonseeds too? I mean, it's been "developed" since the beginning, right?

[Lord Varys]

He has dreams about dragons. I did not say anything about them being prophetic or otherwise weird. But the dreams are not given in detail, and perhaps they even were prophetic. Perhaps Tyrion dreamed of his own dragon because, well, he would eventually have his own dragon? We cannot rule out that possibility.

The fact that he should develop a dragon obsession is also somewhat odd. It's never mentioned that regular guys grow obsessed over (dragon)fire and dragons in general. Tyrion seems to have the impression that other mistreated boys also imagine fighting back with dragons, but nowhere in the whole series is this confirmed or even hinted.

Tyrion's fascination with dragons also seems to predate his knowledge that they died out. This could suggest that he had this dreams from a very early age onwards. And even afterwards this obsession seemed to continue for a time.

[Wouter]

Which would be fine if he only had sex with a Butterwell, but he did not, instead he had sex with every women he could lay his eyes on in the SK. Why is going to care so much if he is a dragonseed? She has no idea of paternity of his house or Barristan for that matter. THey would just assume he has blood of the dragon. There is no record of Joanna sleeping with Aerys. She doesn't even know Aerys slept with Joanna, Barristan knows as much as he took some liberties during the bedding.

Barristan was right there in KL and knew the people involved personally, if anyone suspects what happened it's him, or the mysterious and learned guys like Moqorro (he might finally specify whether his prophetic dream includes Tyrion as one of the dragons or not) and Marwyn. Not too mention, the maester who supposedly wrote those parts of the worldbook (in-universe) would know if the timing worked out. Someone like Barristan would know more about whether or not Aerys had the opportunity to "visit" Joanna.

Why care so much if Tyrion is a dragonseed? Well, simple, because it is Targaryen doctrine/propaganda that they and only they can ride dragons. Hence why Nettles was simply assumed to be dragonseed, even though there is no more proof for her being dragonseed than any random person on Dragonstone - except that she did tame Sheepstealer. Still, Nettles is an inconvenience because her lack of obvious Targaryen parents or features may make some people doubt if she really has dragonblood, and consequently if others would not be able to keep and ride dragons as well (even without magical horns). If Dany gets a simple explanation to sweep all the doubt away, then she will likely leap at that: his father is a Targaryen, case closed, no one but Targs gets to ride dragons.

A much simpler explanaton than banking on a totally unknown relative that may or may not have had a drop of Targ blood from uncertain source.

Because nor the World book nor the regular books nor Dunk & Egg have so much of a hint of a Lannister-Targaryan intercourse, save for Joanna/Aerys, Occam's Razor suggests this is where Tyrion would get his assumed Targaryen blood from. Even if Tywin is the real father of Tyrion, as long as there is sufficient reason to doubt (as Tywin himself either doubted or was certain Tyrion wasn't his) the story can easily go that way.

[Cas Stark]

The beliefs of these forums are based on much more careful and gifted readers than I am, and there are many of them. If we all failed to see the clues for A+J=T while we were able to deduce R+L=J and still discussing its details, then we are all fools, or George messed it up, or you are a super genius.

dreaming of having dragons (and using them to burn the abusive father/sister) =/= dragon dreams of Targaryens

The forum is full of bat shit crazy theories. HS is Howland Reed. Ashara Dayne is ______. ________ isn't dead. Mance is Rhaegar. Dany and Jon are twins. All kinds of fairly silly stuff that people believe and have spent countless hours attempting to prove.

Yes, there is "some" evidence that Tyrion could be a secret Targaryen, in the books, and now, with this new companion piece, there is "more" evidence to support it. It still sucks, in my opinion and that has nothing to do with pride or not having believed it, it sucks because it sucks.

[Chaircat Meow]

I agree the paranoia wouldn't. There was definitely a real slight as I understood it. I mean, even without an actual consummation, Tywin suffered a real slight. So I think you're saying that we can easily accept that Joanna was truly raped, in light of how Tywin doesn't imagine slights, and it seemed like the slight was as egregious as a consummation.

I'm a little confused as to what you are saying. I think Aerys made the remark to Joanna as soon as she was presented, so to speak, and Tywin offered to resign the night after, which pins any consummation down to that night. I'm saying Tywin would know what happened, so not paranoid imaginings. I think it did happen (and that it was not consensual) but Joanna insisted the child wasn't Aerys's and when Tyrion was born Tywin was angry at Joanna because he thought she'd got that wrong (why he snapped at her dornish friends). Aerys was the one producing all the stillbirths and so on, while Tywin and Joanna seemed to be ok, so Tyrion's deformities suggested to Tywin he was really Aerys's. There's a place for conflicted wishful thinking to come into that actually, but it is important I think for there to be real grounds to suspect the paternity.

I think I may have worded that post kind of poorly. I think what might add some complexity is in Tywin's ambivalence toward Tyrion's being Aerys in light of Aerys' suggestiveness toward Joanna. As in, I was questioning to what extent Tywin was truly, genuinely uncertain about Tyrion's parentage versus how much of it would be Tywin's extremely conflicted wishful thinking.

In all honestly that changes very little and it seems unlikely GrrM would keep on with the Aerys-Joanna point if that was all it was.

[oursisthefury69]

The beliefs of these forums are based on much more careful and gifted readers than I am, and there are many of them. If we all failed to see the clues for A+J=T while we were able to deduce R+L=J and still discussing its details, then we are all fools, or George messed it up, or you are a super genius.

dreaming of having dragons (and using them to burn the abusive father/sister) =/= dragon dreams of Targaryens

The beliefs of these forums are based on much more careful and gifted readers than I am, and there are many of them. If we all failed to see the clues for A+J=T while we were able to deduce R+L=J and still discussing its details, then we are all fools, or George messed it up, or you are a super genius.

dreaming of having dragons (and using them to burn the abusive father/sister) =/= dragon dreams of Targaryens

Dude you keep saying that. Yet you havent and assumedly never will respond- Firstly idk where youir coming from with "we all" (you dont represent the enirety of the boards) "You all" did miss Varys plan to pass of Faegon. Literally 1 person ever EVER made a thread theorizing Aegon survived the sack before book 5. So your whole if its real/important it will be posted on frequently around here is literally proven wrong. Understood? (i doubt it)

and dreaming of dragons =dragon dreams by any literate standards but spin it how u will

[butterbumps!]

I'm a little confused as to what you are saying. I think Aerys made the remark to Joanna as soon as she was presented, so to speak, and Tywin offered to resign the night after, which pins any consummation down to that night. I'm saying Tywin would know what happened, so not paranoid imaginings. I think it did happen (and that it was not consensual) but Joanna insisted the child wasn't Aerys's and when Tyrion was born Tywin was angry at Joanna because he thought she'd got that wrong (why he snapped at her dornish friends). Aerys was the one producing all the stillbirths and so on, while Tywin and Joanna seemed to be ok, so Tyrion's deformities suggested to Tywin he was really Aerys's. There's a place for conflicted wishful thinking to come into that actually, but it is important I think for there to be real grounds to suspect the paternity.

In all honestly that changes very little and it seems unlikely GrrM would keep on with the Aerys-Joanna point if that was all it was.

Oh, I understand what you're saying. I think I misread something before, sorry.

I'm not in disagreement with your take in this case.

ETA: Though, I do still wonder how much of that doubt is genuine. Does he know deep down Tyrion's his? I'm not sure exactly what I think yet.