Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[oursisthefury69]

The forum is full of bat shit crazy theories. HS is Howland Reed. Ashara Dayne is ______. ________ isn't dead. Mance is Rhaegar. Dany and Jon are twins. All kinds of fairly silly stuff that people believe and have spent countless hours attempting to prove.

Yes, there is "some" evidence that Tyrion could be a secret Targaryen, in the books, and now, with this new companion piece, there is "more" evidence to support it. It still sucks, in my opinion and that has nothing to do with pride or not having believed it, it sucks because it sucks.

While i appreciate the mildly objective take you have on it, you have to realize how much the bold sounds exactly like people who dont want to believe Jon isnt Neds son

[oursisthefury69]

double post

[Cas Stark]

While i appreciate the mildly objective take you have on it, you have to realize how much the bold sounds exactly like people who dont want to believe Jon isnt Neds son

LOL. Well, it is true that there is a LOT more textual evidence that supports Jon not being Ned's son than there is for Tyrion not being Tywin's son. I have said people were dead wrong about this theory until this book, but I can' see much reason why the author would purposely fan the flames of such a theory unless he means to introduce at the very least the concept that Tywin thought it was possible into the books, even knowing that he, Martin, does have trollish tendencies.

But, I've explained in detail why I don't like it, I really don't like it. But, I didn't like what he did with Dany in Mereen either, or the fact that Doran Martell's plots are non existent in reality and he appears to me to suck at plotting...the author has done a lot of stuff in the last two books that I feel he's going to have a tough time writing his way out of....however, it is what it is. I'm resigned to not liking some of his choices since I already dislike some of his choices intensely and feel, with Dany and Doran and to a lesser extent Tyrion that their characters are all deeply damaged.

[Wouter]

I'm a little confused as to what you are saying. I think Aerys made the remark to Joanna as soon as she was presented, so to speak, and Tywin offered to resign the night after, which pins any consummation down to that night. I'm saying Tywin would know what happened, so not paranoid imaginings. I think it did happen (and that it was not consensual) but Joanna insisted the child wasn't Aerys's and when Tyrion was born Tywin was angry at Joanna because he thought she'd got that wrong (why he snapped at her dornish friends). Aerys was the one producing all the stillbirths and so on, while Tywin and Joanna seemed to be ok, so Tyrion's deformities suggested to Tywin he was really Aerys's. There's a place for conflicted wishful thinking to come into that actually, but it is important I think for there to be real grounds to suspect the paternity.

That's an important point; opponents of the theory (those who would not simply say "crackpot", and then go on posting in the Grand Northern conspiracy threads or the Heresy threads) have long claimed that Tywin's doubts merely came from an irrational belief that he couldn't possibly produce a dwarf and thus Tyrion had to be from someone else even though he had no reason at all to doubt Joanna's faithfulness.

The World Book does put that argument to rest, in my opinion. Clearly, there were rational reasons to doubt, as well.

[Wouter]

LOL. Well, it is true that there is a LOT more textual evidence that supports Jon not being Ned's son than there is for Tyrion not being Tywin's son. I have said people were dead wrong about this theory until this book, but I can' see much reason why the author would purposely fan the flames of such a theory unless he means to introduce at the very least the concept that Tywin thought it was possible into the books, even knowing that he, Martin, does have trollish tendencies.

But, I've explained in detail why I don't like it, I really don't like it. But, I didn't like what he did with Dany in Mereen either, or the fact that Doran Martell's plots are non existent in reality and he appears to me to suck at plotting...the author has done a lot of stuff in the last two books that I feel he's going to have a tough time writing his way out of....however, it is what it is. I'm resigned to not liking some of his choices since I already dislike some of his choices intensely and feel, with Dany and Doran and to a lesser extent Tyrion that their characters are all deeply damaged.

While I understand frustration with Martin's choices in AFFC and ADWD, the Tyrion thing is different to the extent that if true, it was clearly plotted to be so right from the start. Martin may have a hard time writing himself out of a corner in some respects, but I don't think that Tyrion's parentage is one of those.

[oursisthefury69]

BTW reminder for Antz to respond to 1 person ever figuring out the (F)Aegon introduction before book 5, in response to his whole "if its true people would talk about it on here more"

[oursisthefury69]

LOL. Well, it is true that there is a LOT more textual evidence that supports Jon not being Ned's son than there is for Tyrion not being Tywin's son. I have said people were dead wrong about this theory until this book, but I can' see much reason why the author would purposely fan the flames of such a theory unless he means to introduce at the very least the concept that Tywin thought it was possible into the books, even knowing that he, Martin, does have trollish tendencies.

But, I've explained in detail why I don't like it, I really don't like it. But, I didn't like what he did with Dany in Mereen either, or the fact that Doran Martell's plots are non existent in reality and he appears to me to suck at plotting...the author has done a lot of stuff in the last two books that I feel he's going to have a tough time writing his way out of....however, it is what it is. I'm resigned to not liking some of his choices since I already dislike some of his choices intensely and feel, with Dany and Doran and to a lesser extent Tyrion that their characters are all deeply damaged.

Well when you consider things evidence only when applying it to something that's already all but proven true than obviously you dont think there's much "evidence" for Tyrion. There's just as much though. There's more obvious "evidence" (more so implications) earlier on for Jon without a doubt, thats why the publisher that read Game of Thrones the first time before anybody else figured out by the end of her read who Jons parents are.

And i understand you've explained why you dont like it, i didnt need further elaboration. I am however pointing out that 1. it frankly doesnt matter if you like it (plenty of people didnt like the red wedding) 2. And that your the exact inverse of the people who come into R+L threads for the first time and the only reason they have for not believing it is because they dont like Jon not being Neds son. I thought this was more or less undeniable, i would hav only expected a response of that size if i went a bit further and elaborated on how the reason you dislike it is the same reason those people "dislke" R+L, which is that they read the whole series without thinking like this, which actaully does = your previously disqualiied notion of not being against it becuase you nver picked up on it

[Cas Stark]

Well when you consider things evidence only when applying it to something that's already all but proven true than obviously you dont think there's much "evidence" for Tyrion. There's just as much though. There's more obvious "evidence" (more so implications) earlier on for Jon without a doubt, thats why the publisher that read Game of Thrones the first time before anybody else figured out by the end of her read who Jons parents are.

And i understand you've explained why you dont like it, i didnt need further elaboration. I am however pointing out that 1. it frankly doesnt matter if you like it (plenty of people didnt like the red wedding) 2. And that your the exact inverse of the people who come into R+L threads for the first time and the only reason they have for not believing it is because they dont like Jon not being Neds son. I thought this was more or less undeniable, i would hav only expected a response of that size if i went a bit further and elaborated on how the reason you dislike it is the same reason those people "dislke" R+L, which is that they read the whole series without thinking like this, which actaully does = your previously disqualiied notion of not being against it becuase you nver picked up on it

But, there can't be "just as much" if as you say and I agree the close reader has known who Jon's parents were since the end of GOT, and very, very few people even up until this book have thought Tyrion was a secret Targaryen. There is "some" evidence in the books, but the evidence is very contradictory as there is also evidence supporting Tyrion as a Lannister, e.g. Genna's statement especially.

If as you say, nobody but one person in more than a decade of this forum thought Aegon was alive until Dance, then that actually means that the critics were right that GRRM did spring this on the reader out of nowhere and it is not correct that there was "evidence" and hints in the previous books, since people spin theories out of literally nothing or stupid crap like 'thin hips/good hips'. I didn't see Aegon coming, a few more hints I think would have been better, but even though I did find it kind of a large plot element to be introduced so late, I don't hate it at all.

So, I think you're wrong that people oppose the Tyrion as a secret Targ only because they didn't see it coming. There are lots of other reasons to oppose it.

[Princessmaria]

I have come to believe that Tyrion is a Targaryen, the son of Aerys II and Joanna Lannister, but I was unsure of the timing of Tyrion's conception. However, after reading the new book, "The World of Ice and Fire, the Untold History of Westeros and the Game of Thrones," it seems that Joanna Lannister and Aerys II were together at a time when Tyrion could have been conceived. In the chapter entitled "Aerys II," it states that in 272 AC, Joanna Lannister, along with her children, Cersei and Jaime, attended the Anniversary Tourney celebrating Aerys's 10th year on the Iron Throne where Aerys made a crude and humiliating comment to Joanna asking if breastfeeding her children had ruined her breasts. Tyrion was subsequently born in 273 AC. So it is entirely possible Aerys, who had lusted after Joanna Lannister for years, and would have enjoyed turning Tywin Lannister into a cuckold, could have fathered Tyrion.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Why would the Tywin we've known and loved (or, love to hate...) have allowed Aerys to live after he (supposedly) raped/seduced his beloved wife?

It's not like Tywin would shy away of arranging an assassination or that he didn't have willing (and valuable) helper in Pycelle...

[Wouter]

Why would the Tywin we've known and loved (or, love to hate...) have allowed Aerys to live after he (supposedly) raped/seduced his beloved wife?

It's not like Tywin would shy away of arranging an assassination or that he didn't have willing (and valuable) helper in Pycelle...

It's clear that Tywin allowed to Aerys to humiliate him in many things, and yet he didn't have Aerys murdered. That's what the world book makes clear, expanding on what was already mentioned in the main novels.

[Chaircat Meow]

Why would the Tywin we've known and loved (or, love to hate...) have allowed Aerys to live after he (supposedly) raped/seduced his beloved wife?

It's not like Tywin would shy away of arranging an assassination or that he didn't have willing (and valuable) helper in Pycelle...

Aerys was the king and surrounded by a very able kingsguard, not the crap that Robert had. Nothing Tywin could do. But he might have tried at Duskendale.

[mezmerised]

I love how people cant deny the concept anymore, so now its a matter of "well this is just going to ruin other plots, this doesnt seem like it was developoed from the beginning the same way"

So you don't like it when people say they feel it would be a bad literary decision or that it would undermine the T/T relationship but when butterbumps gives a step by step breakdown of why she finds the theory unlikely that's also not good enough for you.

It's like you feel people are trying to deny you the satisfaction of being proven right because they are spiteful when really we are just genuinely not convinced that AJT is a thing that GRRM is going for (while others now believe that he is going to make AJT happen but think it would make for a worse story).

There's definitely more to discuss now with all the new info GRRM put in the world book but that's it. Neither the AJT believers nor the deniers can say with certainty that they are right so everybody should be allowed to just give their opinion.

and dreaming of dragons =dragon dreams by any literate standards but spin it how u will

Not really.

If for example Septon Meribald had told Brienne during their travels that lately he'd been dreaming about wolves would that make you draw the conclusion that Meribald is a secret Stark? Or maybe just that he was dreaming about them because wolves were on his mind anyway since Nymeria and her pack had attacked people in the Riverlands?

There's a difference in people dreaming about wolves and wolf dreams as experienced by the Stark kids, just as there is a difference between dreaming about dragons and actual dragon dreams like the ones Dany is having. If GRRM wants to make it unequivocally clear that Tyrion has dragon dreams he should give him one. After all we are in his POV.

Him talking about dreaming about dragons as a child is not definite proof of anything yet. Especially since he even gives an explanation why he was so fascinated with them (as a small kid with stunted legs imagining himself on dragonback made him feel powerful and generally good about himself). It could have been actual dragon dreams but we don't know anything definite at this point in the story.

[Ingelheim]

Aerys was the king and surrounded by a very able kingsguard, not the crap that Robert had. Nothing Tywin could do. But he might have tried at Duskendale.

I'd say he did try, and hard. Tywin's actions are always the same: not getting his own hands dirty. If Aerys had died, it wouldn't have been because of Tywin, but because of the Darklyns.

About the Tyrion thing...well, Martin has certainly done some things the last 14 years that I heavily disliked. Daenerys' arc in Meeren, Quentyn, half of AFFC, Cersei's POVs, etc. This would only be another bad choice, at least in my opinion.

Tywin having doubts about Tyrion' paternity...that would be really good. Tywin knowing Tyrion wasn't his...that would really weaken himself as a character.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Aerys was the king and surrounded by a very able kingsguard, not the crap that Robert had. Nothing Tywin could do. But he might have tried at Duskendale.

Yea I agree about the kingsguard that's why I'm mentioning Pycelle. The maester could have found a way to poison him, bypassing the kingsguard's obstacle.

About Duskndale, I believe it's more of an indication that Tywin was a loyal hand, even when totally fed up. I mean, he was careful and it did take a whole year to settle the matter. During this time, Tywin could have easily made a "mistake" that could have costed Aerys' life and then blame it on some "hot-headed" minor officer, or take action like having someone act as an agent provocateur during the blockade, but no, he did nothing of the sort and even allowed Selmy to try and free Aerys when he could have forbidden it on some pretext.

[Chaircat Meow]

We have a lot of hints Aerys lusted after Joanna. Why is the bit about Aerys thinking about the lord's right of first night there if not to suggest having sex with Joanna while she was married to Tywin was something Aerys fantasized about? He's always making remarks about her (like when her children were born and he said he married the wrong woman). He clearly thought she was beautiful. I think 272 was the time he decided to carry through the desire he had had on the night of Tywin's wedding. There was no better way to humiliate Tywin after all, and show him who was really king, which is what we are told Aerys wanted to do. Could Aerys really do that just by mocking Joanna's breasts: I don't think so.

edit: Tywin had to be very careful at Duskendale, lest Prince Rhaegar think he did anything to bring harm to Aerys. Most of the council were there as well. Tywin may have thought he went far enough, what with the, 'we have another king here,' comment. Tywin doesn't really seem to trust Pycelle either. He's Pycelle's hero, but in the novels Tywin does not value Pycelle at all. He never even tells Tyrion Pycelle is very pro-lannister when he sends him to KL.

[cgf]

BTW reminder for Antz to respond to 1 person ever figuring out the (F)Aegon introduction before book 5, in response to his whole "if its true people would talk about it on here more"

That wasn't something that was discussed? Cause I used to just watch the show, didn't want the show and books to overlap so was saving the books for once the show was done, and a book reader over hearing me and another house TV-only friend stumble onto (f)Aegon's survival/arrival after the Mountain and the Red Viper episode is what lead to my having so much of the story spoiled that I gave up my plan of separation and started plowing through the books. The emphasis the show made on the boy's skull being crushed before showing us just what the mountain crushing a skull leaves to identify folks with got us speculating about a baby swap or someone claiming a baby swap. I can't believe that readers didn't come up with similar theories when that came to pass in the books.

[Maia]

"You all" did miss Varys plan to pass of Faegon. Literally 1 person ever EVER made a thread theorizing Aegon survived the sack before book 5. So your whole if its real/important it will be posted on frequently around here is literally proven wrong.

Well, that's not entirely true. There have been threads about Aegon maybe surviving on the predecessors of this board and we few, we brave, etc. did think that Varys likely at least tried to save him. The joke is on us, of course, because I am now fairly certain that it is just Faegon that we got and that Varys was never a friend to Targaryens.

But, sad, to say, anything that seems to threaten Jon's unique Snow-flakeitude, does tend to get shouted down, and one gets tired of arguing against the loud majority. The arguments against Aegon were pretty much the same - it would be a repetition of Jon's story, he is the only secret Targaryen that we could possibly need or want, etc. Oh, and that Elia would never have allowed only one of her children to be taken away to possible safety.

Also, apparently, people really like their Lannisters to be as villainous as possible. Just as now many are really attached to Tywin being a shallow able-ist, who couldn't get over his (only true) son's dwarfism, and deserving of all the crap that Aerys heaped on him, so in the grey mists of the past, before ASoS came out, people really ridiculed those of us who had figured out that Jaime killed Aerys because of the wildfire plot. That would have diminished Jaime as a "magnificent bastard" whom they loved to hate, of course he had to do it for selfish reasons, or those of loyalty to his father, etc, etc. So, nothing is new under the moon...

[Wouter]

That wasn't something that was discussed? Cause I used to just watch the show, didn't want the show and books to overlap so was saving the books for once the show was done, and a book reader over hearing me and another house TV-only friend stumble onto (f)Aegon's survival/arrival after the Mountain and the Red Viper episode is what lead to my having so much of the story spoiled that I gave up my plan of separation and started plowing through the books. The emphasis the show made on the boy's skull being crushed before showing us just what the mountain crushing a skull leaves to identify folks with got us speculating about a baby swap or someone claiming a baby swap. I can't believe that readers didn't come up with similar theories when that came to pass in the books.

People have been discussing (f)Aegon for years. After ACOK came out, the part about the "mummer's dragon" in Dany's house of the undying vision was noticed and someone asked Martin if Aegon and Rhaenys really were dead. He answered that "Rhaenys was definitely killed", which promptly fueled speculaton that Aegon may be alive. Now we know why Martin answered that way: he was planning to use Aegon's identity later on in the books, and he didn't yet want to give away if he is really Rhaegar's son or not (most on the board, including me, think he isn't).

Granted, many also felt (f)Aegon came completely out of left field, but there were some clues, including the otherwise hard to explain behaviour of Varys and Illyrio (who don't seem to be genuine Targ supporters at all in their dealings with Viserys and Daenerys).

[butterbumps!]

Well, that's not entirely true. There have been threads about Aegon maybe surviving on the predecessors of this board and we few, we brave, etc. did think that Varys likely at least tried to save him. The joke is on us, of course, because I am now fairly certain that it is just Faegon that we got and that Varys was never a friend to Targaryens.

But, sad, to say, anything that seems to threaten Jon's unique Snow-flakeitude, does tend to get shouted down, and one gets tired of arguing against the loud majority. The arguments against Aegon were pretty much the same - it would be a repetition of Jon's story, he is the only secret Targaryen that we could possibly need or want, etc. Oh, and that Elia would never have allowed only one of her children to be taken away to possible safety.

Also, apparently, people really like their Lannisters to be as villainous as possible. Just as now many are really attached to Tywin being a shallow able-ist, who couldn't get over his (only true) son's dwarfism, and deserving of all the crap that Aerys heaped on him, so in the grey mists of the past, before ASoS came out, people really ridiculed those of us who had figured out that Jaime killed Aerys because of the wildfire plot. That would have diminished Jaime as a "magnificent bastard" whom they loved to hate, of course he had to do it for selfish reasons, or those of loyalty to his father, etc, etc. So, nothing is new under the moon...

This isn't about preserving Jon's super special "Snow flakitude," and I suspect you know that. It's the fact that the R+L=J revelation is the one that's been developed thoroughly, and in a way that's made it critical to the plot. It's not about his being the only special Targ we need or want. It's about the fact that the X+Targ= "secret Targ raised by a relative" is literally already developed in Jon's character, and to have a half-baked, less developed version of that also revealed in a second major character becomes more than a little absurd to the point of interference.

And I don't "want" the Lannisters to be as villainous as possible. I happen to agree with Hear Me Meow's posts (despite some brief confusion on my part earlier). It does sound like a true insult was done to Tywin and Joanna. I think it reads like Aerys may have raped her-- at least I can see the suggestion of that. My question and interest was in whether Tywin was truly uncertain of the biology (even if we suppose a rape occurred), versus to what extent he knew the truth, but conflictedly wished otherwise. I think that's a fairly legitimate line of discussion that doesn't cling to the notion of Tywin as unable to be a victim.

ETA: I'm admittedly conflicted, however, in finding too much sympathy towards his reactions to being wronged.