Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Him talking about dreaming about dragons as a child is not definite proof of anything yet.

I never really took Tyrion "dreaming of dragons" as being of a prophetic nature (and we don't see him having an actual dragon dream in his POVs, which you think Martin would do if he actually wanted to convey this). More like, he dreamed of dragons the way an 8-year-old girl might dream of having a pony.

ETA: I'm also not sure where these hilariously chickenshit potshots at people calling this theory "crackpot" are coming from. I've never called it crackpot, nor, from what I've seen, has Bumps. I don't think it's crackpot, I just think it's wrong. Thinking that a theory is wrong =/= thinking that a theory is crackpot. I'm sorry so many people are apparently unable to discern the difference.

[Wmarshal]

Barristan was right there in KL and knew the people involved personally, if anyone suspects what happened it's him, or the mysterious and learned guys like Moqorro (he might finally specify whether his prophetic dream includes Tyrion as one of the dragons or not) and Marwyn. Not too mention, the maester who supposedly wrote those parts of the worldbook (in-universe) would know if the timing worked out. Someone like Barristan would know more about whether or not Aerys had the opportunity to "visit" Joanna.

Why care so much if Tyrion is a dragonseed? Well, simple, because it is Targaryen doctrine/propaganda that they and only they can ride dragons. Hence why Nettles was simply assumed to be dragonseed, even though there is no more proof for her being dragonseed than any random person on Dragonstone - except that she did tame Sheepstealer. Still, Nettles is an inconvenience because her lack of obvious Targaryen parents or features may make some people doubt if she really has dragonblood, and consequently if others would not be able to keep and ride dragons as well (even without magical horns). If Dany gets a simple explanation to sweep all the doubt away, then she will likely leap at that: his father is a Targaryen, case closed, no one but Targs gets to ride dragons.

A much simpler explanaton than banking on a totally unknown relative that may or may not have had a drop of Targ blood from uncertain source.

Because nor the World book nor the regular books nor Dunk & Egg have so much of a hint of a Lannister-Targaryan intercourse, save for Joanna/Aerys, Occam's Razor suggests this is where Tyrion would get his assumed Targaryen blood from. Even if Tywin is the real father of Tyrion, as long as there is sufficient reason to doubt (as Tywin himself either doubted or was certain Tyrion wasn't his) the story can easily go that way.

He did include him, he was not a dragon, he is spoken of in Dany's warnings as a lion. Where is this maester? He is not going to Essos.

And so because a history she knows completely because of her brother who was what? 8 when he learned most of it? She is going to go nose ddep to learn all she can on Lannister history? Why would she assumed that? She would likely assume his ancestry included Targ, not his father. You do realize dragonseed doesn't just mean parent but ancestry right?

Save for the fact Aegon the unworthy banged across the realm and could easily had sex with one of his mother or grandmother's ancestor. Tyrion has no idea Joanna and Aerys may may not have had a thing.

[chrisdaw]

There is "some" evidence in the books, but the evidence is very contradictory as there is also evidence supporting Tyrion as a Lannister, e.g. Genna's statement especially.

The quote refers to personality, and even then it is directed to Jaime who spends the rest of that chapter and the following proving the quote wrong. Everyone seems desperate to latch onto that quote, yet no-one wants to recall this one which is in answer to it.

If his aunt had been there, would she still say Tyrion was Tywin's son?

Or this one.

"Long and bitter. A life without honor. Until his dying day, men will say he was afraid to fight."

Unjustly, Jaime thought. It was his child he feared for. He knew whose son I am, better than mine own aunt.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

I can’t believe this theory is still going strong. There is no evidence (logical) of Tyrion being anyone’s son, but Tywin. All of the purported evidence of Tyrion being a Targaryen is spotty at best. The alleged rape of Joanna is kind of silly.

Genna’s statement goes to far more than mere “personality,” she is basically telling Jaime that Tyrion is Tywin in every way (Tywin writ small).

[chrisdaw]

So then Jaime isn't Tywin's?

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Of course he is, never said he was not. But Genna sees more of her other brothers in Jaime than Tywin. Tyrion may have not received the fabled Lannister beauty, but he got the very best part of this father, his mind.

[chrisdaw]

Oh I see, it's about personality only with Jaime and paternity with Tyrion. Convenient of Genna.

[Wouter]

ETA: I'm also not sure where these hilariously chickenshit potshots at people calling this theory "crackpot" are coming from. I've never called it crackpot, nor, from what I've seen, has Bumps. I don't think it's crackpot, I just think it's wrong. Thinking that a theory is wrong =/= thinking that a theory is crackpot. I'm sorry so many people are apparently unable to discern the difference.

Lots of people have been calling it crackpot, it is/was a fad on the board. I'm not sure why you think those comments are aimed at you or at Butterbumps; not every post on the forum revolves around you.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Oh I see, it's about personality only with Jaime and paternity with Tyrion. Convenient of Genna.

No and no. Intellectual capacity is very much apart of genetics, and is. Hence the genetic material of geniuses, musicians, athletes, etc., is kept and paid for by some to reproduce.

I’m not saying Jaime didn’t get anything from his father, but Tywin had a very special intelligence that passed on to one of his sons (Tyrion). He simply could not get over Tyrion’s deformity to realize he had the heir he craved.

[Chaircat Meow]

The alleged rape of Joanna is kind of silly.

Why?

[chrisdaw]

So Tyrion's intelligence proves he is Tywin's son and Genna has discerned this through her sixth sense for genetics.

[Chaircat Meow]

Not that I buy A+J=T but Rhaegar was also very intelligent, fwiw. So Aerys could produce intelligent sons.

[bent branch]

Many people are characterizing Aerys asking Joanna if "...giving suck to them had 'ruined your breasts,which were so high and proud.'" as an insult to Joanna and not the crude come on it was. The reason this was an insult to Tywin is because Aerys is admitting in public that he has seen Joanna's breasts. We have only the highly biased view of a Lannister toady to tell us that Lady Joanna was "humiliated". Tywin tried to resign the next morning, but Aerys refused.

The question is, why did Tywin try to resign the next morning? My prediction, which Barristan will confirm, is that Joanna spent that night in Aerys' chambers. Was Joanna there voluntarily or not? I'm not sure there will ever be any way to determine which is correct.

Now some people (perhaps many) will say that I am giving Aerys too much benefit of the doubt, but I will point out the contradictory information we are given in the worldbook itself (from Aerys II):

His grace was full of grand schemes...In 264 AC, a visit to King's Landing by Lord Rickard Stark of Winterfell awakened his interest in the North, and he hatched a plan to build a new Wall a hundred leagues north of the existing one and claim all the lands between.

Compare how this same idea is presented in section on the Night's Watch:

The vast expense in sustaining the Wall and the men who man it has become increasingly intolerable. Only three of the castles of the Night's Watch are now manned, and the order is a tenth of the size that it was when Aegon and his sisters landed, yet even at this size, the Watch remains a burden.

Some argue that the Wall serves as a useful way of ridding the realm of murderers, rapers, poachers, and their ilk, whilst others question the wisdom of putting weapons in the hands of such and training them in the arts of war. Wildling raids may rightly be considered more of a nuisance than a menace; many wise men suggest that they might be better dealt with by allowing the lords of the North to extend their rule beyond the Wall so that they can drive the wildlings back.

So, when the idea is presented as Aerys' it is a “mad scheme” and when presented by others they are “wise men”. The implication of these two sections of text is that Rickard brought the idea to Aerys, who considered it. We the readers know it was a bad idea, but with the knowledge available to those in the books, it could have been a reasonable idea. We still haven't been told the Targaryen side of this story, but all the indications are the truth is being heavily skewed.

As to the evidence of Tyrion's bastardy, the first time we meet Tyrion this conversation takes place (AGOT Chapter 5):

“All dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes.”

“You are your mother's trueborn son of Lannister.”

“Am I?” the dwarf replied, sardonic. “Do tell my lord father. My mother died birthing me, and he's never been sure.”

Right here, the first time I read AGOT, I wondered it Tyrion was a bastard. Why? Maybe it is because this is a classic case of the literary technique of foreshadowing. Then when I read this I became 80% convinced that Tyrion was a bastard (ASOS-Chapter 4):

“You ask that? You, who killed your mother to come into the world? You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. Men's laws give you the right to bear my name and display my colors, since I cannot prove that you are not mine. To teach me humility, the gods have condemned me to watch you waddle about wearing that proud lion that was my father's sigil and his father's before him. But neither gods nor men shall ever compel me to let you turn Casterly Rock into your whorehouse.”

Hmm, I wonder why I might think Tyrion is a bastard. Could it be that same old literary technique of foreshadowing? Nah, it must be I am imagining the implications of this scene or because I “want” Tyrion to be a bastard. It can't be foreshadowing. Heaven forbid! In addition, there are tons of small comments that call into question Tyrion's Lannisterness. All of these things together should have warned the reader that Tyrion was potentially a bastard.

It appears to be the favorite pastime of some people on these forums of parsing sentences until they remove all the sentences original meaning and then inserting whatever meaning they want. That is the reason they find themselves blindsided by this “terrible” possibility of Tyrion being a Targ in a companion publication.

[Ser Creighton]

I tend to agree about feeling personally conflicted about rounding out Tywin's potential "victimization" in this. Is it actually even definitive that he was cuckholded? That could be something of a paranoid figment of an assault to his ego in the first place. I still think it's possible none of this actually happened, but that the feared ego assault in terms of Aerys' behavior (potentially unconsummated) toward Joanna was blown out of proportion in his mind such that he wasn't a victim of anything except his own paranoia. I think that's actually fairly in line with Tywin's character-- he doesn't handle slights well, to put it mildly.

Aegon isn't a main character in the way Jon and Tyrion are, and 5 books haven't given us thorough development of his relationship to his "father" the way Jon-Ned and Tyrion-Tywin were developed.

Further, Aegon's parentage thing is basically the inverse of Jon's. Where Jon is Rhaegar's son, (probably "legit," imo, in so far as I think they married) raised as though he's someone else's bastard, Aegon was raised to believe he was Rhaegar's legit son, but is someone else's "bastard" in truth (I'm being cavalier in the wording; I think he's part of a bastard branch).

The dyamic I keep pointing to is this: Dany is the undisputed known Targ of the main branch. Aegon is coming to us as a dragon of the main Targ branch, with a presumably better claim than Dany according to inheritance convention, though is probably of a bastard branch in truth. Both of these are the "Targs" that people in story will see as "dragons." Jon is a "Targ" to the readers, and according to convention, likely the one of the 3 with the best Targ "claim." But to everyone in-story, he's some bastard, and he'll neither embrace, nor be recognized for, his Targ lineage.

Well that's part of my point with Aegon being described as a central character like Jon and Dany. It's not even close, it's hard to get any feel for him because he is new and a non POV.

Aegon' inverse, you used inverse, that's just cheeky. Ummm I have looked at his inverse before, it's a tough one. He has the being hidden away and adoptive figure that Dany and Jon share. But it gets a little convoluted because there is not a ton of info on him and we don't know the real story.

As a Blackfyre his symbol is the inverse of Dany, and Jon to an extent. The colors of the Blackfyre being an inverse. The inverse of the Starks is the Lannisters, Cats and Dogs. You know how you talk about the balance with Jon? Well it works well with Dany and Tyrion He has both the inverse of Tyrion and Dany.

Tyrion as a secret Targ and a believed Lannister. Jon as a secret Targ and believed Lannister. There known sigils are in verse Lion and Wolf.

Dany works best with the Blackfyre. The natural inverse. Real Targ, hidden Blackfyre pretending to be a targ.

Tyrion if it's true he is a Targ. Has a true inverse with Jon. Ned new Jon was not his, Tywin didn't. Sigils are also the inverse. Jon raised with love, Tyrion raised in Bitterness. Tyrion has a missing Uncle he was close with, Jon has a missing Uncle he was close with. Then you have the parents of the three. Jon' mother dies because of complications giving birth. Dany the same, Tyrion the same, Aegon???? Not the same with the cover story, but I don't know the real story, so I am SOL.

I can sort of squeeze Aegon on in, but I can rock Tyrion, Jon and Dany with the inverse. Like Dany her first husband is dead, Tyrion' first wife is dead, Jon' first wife is dead. I call Yiggy his wife because The Member that walks referred to her as Jon' spearwife. So even if it is only symbolic in nature it still exists. Dany has a second husband, Tyrion a second wife, and Jon well, it may seem strange but take a look at the seen when Val returns with the Wildlings. It's a symbolic wedding. Gold bands exchanged, Ghost giving away Val or an old god as you say and Val wearing the Old god pin. Something Old, something New, something borrowed and the wall all blue(that's how it is described in that scene) I can go into more depth. But you are really good at analyzing so I am sure you can look at it or already have and noticed it. It's symbolic, but Jon is in the watch so it has to be.

Also to parallel Jon with the inverse Aegon needs to be in the KG, that would be the inverse of Jon.

Ok I see the dynamic you are talking about. But let me run this one by you. If all was to be revealed, Dany stays as Dany, legit with a claim. Tyrion becomes a Bastard, and Jon the Bastard becomes legit. Again we see Tyrion and Jon have that inverse and it's cyclical as one changes so will the other in the opposite direction.

Dany and Aegon. Do the same thing Aegon is the true legit king with his Story and Dany would be a usurper to him. But reveal the truth and Dany is the true heir and Aegon the usurper. So again I myself find that Jon and Tyrion have a dynamic and Aegon and Dany have an inverse dynamic. Now like a triangle the points connect with Dany and Jon as well. Dany and Jon are the two legitimate heirs. I don't ascribe conflict to Dany and Jon yet because of course if any happens it's to far down the road at this point.

I don't know what Tyrion is, and his purpose baffles me. But one thing I do see is that Tyrion seems to be to Jon, what Aegon is to Dany. Like neither Tyrion nor Aegon know who they really are if the Tyrion theory is correct and if your Aegon theory is correct.

I think all of them share some type of dynamic between them, the question is what and between you and the Tyrion theory I am really starting to find it far more interesting when connecting the dots.

I got a Bolton question to run by you later from the world book. Sorry if some of that stuff is confusing I don;t have time to do a proper breakdown or tree. The broad strokes are there though.

[Wouter]

He did include him, he was not a dragon, he is spoken of in Dany's warnings as a lion. Where is this maester? He is not going to Essos.

Marwin just left Oldtown for ... Slaver's Bay in Sam's last chapter. To advise Dany...

Moqorro's tale of his dragon dream has been phrased deliberately in such a way that his "and you, in the midst of them" is ambiguous as to whether Tyrion is himself one of the dragons or only surrounded by them. It can't really be taken as evidence one way or the other (except to point out Tyrion's general importance), not until Moqorro gives a further explanation.

Moqorro was not involved in warnings for Dany; Quaithe send that warning. Anyway, even as son of Aerys Tyrion would also still be a Lannister; there is no doubt he is Joanna's son. And until further notice, he is still known officially as a Lannister.

And so because a history she knows completely because of her brother who was what? 8 when he learned most of it? She is going to go nose ddep to learn all she can on Lannister history? Why would she assumed that? She would likely assume his ancestry included Targ, not his father. You do realize dragonseed doesn't just mean parent but ancestry right?

Save for the fact Aegon the unworthy banged across the realm and could easily had sex with one of his mother or grandmother's ancestor. Tyrion has no idea Joanna and Aerys may may not have had a thing.

Barristan or others will have that idea, if it happened. ADWD already indicated as much. There is no hint whatsover in the World Book that any Lannister has sex with any Targaryen, even Aegon IV (and plenty of girls of noble houses were explicitly named), except for the hints about Joanna and Aerys. That sudden Aegon IV descendant in the Lannister line would be completely out of left field, not really Martin's style especially now that he has published this new book filling in lots of background. So easy to mention it if it would play a role.

As for Dany, she is a bona fide Targaryen and very proud and aware of her heritage. She is special because she is a dragon(rider), and it is this ability that makes her and her kin into near demi-gods. If someone else manages to ride a dragon without an obvious Targaryen link, she will be shocked and ready for any explanation that still preservers that Targaryen magic. And there's absolutely no need to speculate about Lannister ancestors (which, as you point out, she knows next to nothing about) if Barristan is able to hand her a ready-made explanation on a plate.

Why is Tyrion able to ride dragons? Well, because he has the seed of the dragon, and not from a distant ancestor but from his own father. Surely, that would sound far better to Dany than "maybe Aegon iv happened to sleep with a Lannister of the main line, too", allthough nobody ever made note of that)

Sure, dragonseed can mean that it comes from the ancestors. But just look at how people on those forums tend to not accept that Nettles is a dragonseed, as opposed to the Hull boys (which are quite obviously bastards of Corlys Velaryon).

And I'll repeat it: there is zero indication Tyrion has any other candidate in the Lannister line to have received dragonblood. Might as well say everybody in Westeros is a dragonseed by now (after all the sleeping around since Aegon I), which also wouldn't serve the purpose of keeping the magical aura around the present Targaryen family.

[Dany's Golden Fleece]

You are an ill-made, devious, disobedient, spiteful little creature full of envy, lust, and low cunning. - Tywin

Interestingly some of those adjectives could be used to describe Aerys. Just saying.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Dude you very fundamentally dont understand things.

"Hey Tyrion doesnt have dragon dreams, here look at this quote of him dreaming of dragons"

I always read that quote more as in "I always used to dream I had my own house" etc.

[Wouter]

Interestingly some of those adjectives could be used to describe Aerys. Just saying.

I had never really taken note of the "ill-made" before. Would be fitting, if he believed Joanna eloped with Aerys or Aerys coerced or raped Joanna in order to "make" Tyrion.

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

Here is my take:

1. Abortion is readily available in the Seven Kingdoms. Joanna Lannister would have almost assuredly have taken it following a rape/encounter with Aerys. The only reason she would not have, is if she was sure she was carrying Tywin’s child. This is a lioness of the Rock, who ruled even Tywin at home. This was no weakling.

2. Aerys is credited as being a "mad rapist", but he only handled his wife roughly, otherwise he only kept mistresses. There is no record of him raping anyone, save his wife, although he would likely view it as claiming his marital rights.

3. Timing is a huge problem. When would this have occurred? From the world book we know that Joanna headed and resided in the West once she married Tywin, and rarely left. Aerys only came West twice that we know of. He held court in the West after Lord Tytos’ death in 267 AC and during in 276 AC, during Tywin’s tournament in the West to celebrate Viserys’ birth. From Cersei in AFFC, we know that she, Jamie, and their mother stayed in the West with Lord Tytos, and that Tywin would come home for leave from KL, which makes sense given he and Aerys gave the realm good and plenty at the start. Tywin is born in 273 AC. It could only have happened during the tourney held in KL to celebrate Aerys’ tenth year on the throne, when he utterly humiliated Lady Johanna. I highly doubt it.

Joanna raped in the midst of Casterly Rock? The most recognizable man in the kingdoms (the King) secretly raping the wife of the most powerful lord in Westeros, and nobody heres or sees of it? Someone would have known.

4. Aerys’ madness did not consume him until after Duskendale (277 AC). He was jealous of Tywin, he was paranoid, he was slipping, but he would have to have been truly mad to commit such an act, which was not until after Duskendale.

5. Why did Tywin not join the rebellion outright? He quietly waited for Aerys to come begging him to be his hand. Tywin did not officially forsake house Targaryen until after the Trident. Knowing Tywin as we do, if he had any inkling that Aerys assaulted his beloved wife, he would have joined Robert’s Rebellion immediately.

6. Tywin tried for Tyrion as his heir. He sought offers for Tyrions hand: Yohn Royce, Hoster Tully, Leyton Hightower, and Dorne all refused him robustly. He even had to offer him to the Florent girl Robert deflowered on Stannis’ wedding night. Lord Florent gave her to a household knight instead.

He finally gave him Sansa instead, as a reward, and as a key to the future of the North. When Jaime looked to be all but toast in AGOT, Tywin settled on Tyrion as all he had left, and removed him from the fighting to KL. He would not have done these things for Aerys’ get.

7. We already have one secret Targaryen being spared by a promise enacted by a dying mother, I don’t think we have room for two.

8. Tyrion has mismatched eyes of black and green, and a mixture of pale blonde and black hair. Not exactly Targaryen features.

9. Tyrion dreaming of dragons is likely nothing more than the manifestation of the powerless wishing for the most powerful thing known to man, to compensate for his many shortfalls.

10. I trust Genna Lannister more than just about anyone. She recognized Tywin had the heir he wanted all along, but was simply too blind to Tyrion’s deformity and vices to see it.

11. Tywin making statements like “You’re not my son,” or “You’re my son,” are simply phrases showing approval and acceptance. These are used to own or disown children all the time, because of their actions or misdeeds. No hidden meaning were intended.

12. Tywin’s irrational hatred is Tyrion is easily explainable. Laughter is poison to fear. Laughter at Lord Tytos scarred Tywin and nearly ruined his house. Tyrion has brought constant laughter at Lord Tywin and to house Lannister. Tywin’s pride will not accept Tyrion.

13. The only way this works is if there were true feelings between Aerys and Joanna, and a secret tryst took place. This runs counter to everything we know from the reading.

I don’t like to use words like crackpot, but this theory has always been a bit thin.

[mezmerised]

The quote refers to personality, and even then it is directed to Jaime who spends the rest of that chapter and the following proving the quote wrong. Everyone seems desperate to latch onto that quote, yet no-one wants to recall this one which is in answer to it.

Or this one.

Genna asks "Who will protect us now?" Jaime answers "He left a son" and then Genna "Aye, he did. That is what I fear the most, in truth."

She basically says she fears that Tyrion will be intelligent and vindictive enough to hurt House Lannister. She fears Tyrion will go after them like his father went after the Reynes and the Tarbecks.

Which is a prediction that's very close to the truth actually. Tyrion thinks an awful lot about killing and/or raping Cersei, killing Jaime, war between the IT and Dorne with Tommen and Myrcella on different sides, getting CR for himself no matter at what cost,...

For the record I don't think that he will actually do most of these things he's fantasizing about right now, but at the moment Genna still looks pretty perceptive in her judgement of her nephews.

And I'm not sure how Jaime is proving Genna wrong in the following chapters. He ends the siege of Riverrun without one drop of Tully blood being spilled. He threatened to kill Edmure's baby and thinks that makes him his father's son. But since he was lucky enough that he didn't have to go through with it he hasn't yet proven himself to be as cruel as Tywin at all.