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LordBloodraven

Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

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I think the most important thing that can be gathered from this is that the stuff Tywin says to Tyrion like "You're no son of mine" and such is heavily affected by his knowledge of A+J. Still, Tyrion is almost certainly Tywin's son, but the doubt was always there for Tywin. Unfortunate for Tyrion, yet another factor he had nothing to do with but that was working against him since his birth.


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Why would a bastard grandson come before a bastard son?

Because the bastard grandson is the son of the crown prince, and in general children of the crown prince, even if he dies before the king dies, come before other children of the king. That is how the normal succession works.

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Because the bastard grandson is the son of the crown prince, and in general children of the crown prince, even if he dies before the king dies, come before other children of the king. That is how the normal succession works.

Only if the Crown Prince has any legitimate children (which could be Aegon), if he doesn't then in fall backs to the Kings children again, which would be either Dany or the bastard Tyrion (if A+J=T is true).

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Why would a bastard grandson come before a bastard son?

Because Rhaegar was Aerys' heir, and it must go through all of Rhaegar's children before it reverts to Aerys' other children. Of course, bastards are a different situation. I am sure the case of a bastard of the prince vs. a bastard of the king would depend on things other than just how succession would normally go.

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Only if the Crown Prince has any legitimate children (which could be Aegon), if he doesn't then in fall backs to the Kings children again, which would be either Dany or the bastard Tyrion (if A+J=T is true).

There is no basis to say that a bastard child of Aerys would come before a bastard child of Rhaegar. A legitimate child of Aerys over a bastard child of Rhaegar? Sure. But we don't know whether Jon is truly a bastard or not.

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As is Jon is a bastard if R + L = J is true and hence by your rationale he is no claim to anything either. Regardless if Rhaegar and Lyanna married, it is bigamy as Elia was still alive at the time and hence the union would be illegal by the laws of Westeros (regardless that Targs practiced polygamy in the past), therefore by law Jon is still a bastard - just a Targ bastard.

Yeah, exactly. Jon would have no claim if he's a bastard, neither would Tyrion if he's a bastard. So what?

You've just admitted that your hypothesis that "people just don't want Tyrion to be Aerys' bastard because he would come before Jon in the line of succession" makes no sense. Just as I pointed out.

If you base your theories on who you want to be on the throne or who you want to ride a dragon rather than on what's actually in the text, you get all sorts of convoluted crackpots.

So if all "theories" are true. You have a bastard of Aerys, a bastard of Rheagar, a trueborn girl (Dany) - who cannot inherit by law unless no males coz she is female, and a possible trueborn son of Rheagar, but most likely not, but very hard to prove. Who inherits?

You've just answered your own question.

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First, I must say that I enjoyed Aerys and all of his craziness. It was a fun read. And maybe I shouldn't have, but I really laughed at his outbursts. And yes, I need him to be played by Gary Oldman one day. He's the only one who could portray the madness.

Based on what, Rhaella dismissing her? You could as well say "Well Lysa blamed Sansa for Littlefinger kissing her and tried to kill her over it, that proves Sansa was consensually kissing LF." It's not uncommon for kings to use their position to pressure women of lower station (that would be most women in the kingdom) and for their wives to still see them as whores. You've seen 12 Years a Slave? And I doubt that every woman who slept with Aegon the Unworthy was willing and enthusiastic, rather than scared of what would happen if she said no.

Anyway, I think that all of Joanna's children were Tywin's, but that Aerys may have wished otherwise, and a part of his rivalry with Tywin was his resentment that Tywin got the woman he wanted. I think that whole history influenced Aerys' rather bizarre behaviour to and possessiveness of Jaime. The thing with Aerys keeping Jaime "hostage" makes little sense. Aerys may have been crazy, but you have to be an idiot to believe that you are keeping an able bodied armed man who is one of the country's best swordsmen a hostage by keeping him close at your side, while letting all the other Kingsguard go far away. And then Aerys even expected to follow his order and choose him over Tywin.

I agree with the first paragraph. In fact, I think Rhaella dismissed Joanna because she feared that, by sleeping with her, Aerys could cause considerable damage as she was the wife (or betrothed, can't remember) or a very important lord.

I also agree that many women in the Kingdom didn't go to the Kings' beds willingly, and that included 'good old chap' Robert Baratheon and many Lords. Being a charismatic man doesn't make the abuse less of an abuse.

About bold part, I partially agree. I don't believe Aerys wanted Joanna because she was pretty good Joanna and he was infatuated. He wanted her like he wanted many other women and she got away. His comments had little to do with Joanna, but he was in a constant competition with Tywin, as he got healthy twins after Rhaella miscarried several times, etc.

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LOL no.

If A+J=T is true, Tyrion, as a bastard, has no claim to anything. Not the throne and no Casterly Rock. Even if he were Aerys' younger bastard son and was legitimized (by who?), any son of Rhaegar would come before him.

The resistance to A+J=T comes from the fact that it's a wish fulfillment theory by people who want Tyrion to ride a dragon, and who are convinced that he can't do that without Targ blood (which is unproven), and probably also to make him a speshul secret Targaryen rather than a Lannister. It also comes from the fact that 1) it goes against the ample evidence from the books that Tyrion is very much Tywin's son and has inherited a lot of his traits (while having no similiarities to Aerys or any of the Targs), 2) would invalidate much of Tyrion's arc and his relationship with Tywin, and 3) would validate Tywin Lannister's self-delusions born out of his ableist prejudice against his younger son.

The reason that I tend to believe A+J=T has nothing whatsoever to do with wish fulfillment. I view these issues like a puzzle and just want to be correct. GRRM has planted so many clues that Tyrion might be a Targ bastard that if Tyrion is not, then GRRM simply laid numerous red herrings to entertain himself. I admit that each of these clues might be explained another way--but taken together, they suggest that GRRM is preparing for an eventual reveal of A+J=T.

Now I will turn to your supposed counter-evidence:

(1) The book "proves" that Tryion inherited Tywin's traits--not at all. Physical traits are inherited. Personality traits are just as likely to be developed by the child trying to emulate the parent. When Tyrion is described as the "true" son of Tywin based on Tyrion's personality, these trait are equally likely a matter of Tyrion striving to be like his father. Jaime (the bio-son) tried in many ways to be the opposite of his father, and so was not his "true" son. But Tyrion (not the bio-son of Tywin) wanted his "father's" approval so badly, that Tyrion took on Tywin's traits. This evidence means nothing in terms of biological connection--and everything to do with the nature of their relationship. As far as similarities to Targs, what similarities do you want? He has the hair color. He has mismatched eyes (a Targ bastard is one of the only other characters described this way). He has an obsessive interest in dragons. I think those are some Targ traits.

(2) Invalidate the story arc--well this is completely subjective. I don't agree at all. I think Tyrion's attempt to please his father is even more tragic once he learns that Tywin was not Tyrion's bio-dad. Tywin is dead, so anything that becomes known only after his death cannot have as big an impact on the story arc as you suggest. But I think the real point is that from the readers' point of view, we are left to believe that their relationship was destined to be doomed. I don't see how that is an invalidation of the story arc--it just adds more texture.

(3) Validate Tywin's self-delusion--not at all. Tywin hated Tyrion because he was deformed, not because he was Aerys's son. From the readers' point of view, as a modern audience, we are not meant to justify Tywin's actions because, unknown to Tywin, Tyrion was really the child of Aerys. Tywin's actions toward Tyrion are still equally reprehensible.

The bottom line is that it does not matter whether you or I think this development would enhance or detract from the story--only what GRRM thinks. From the clues I have seen in the books and WoIaF, GRRM is setting up Tyrion to be a Targ bastard and one of the three heads of the dragon.

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Although it still has to be taken into account that it is a maester writing after the fall of the Targaryens to his current king, I am really glad that this book fleshes out just how jealous, paranoid, and just terrible Aerys really was. In the main series you have his wiping out of the Darklyns and Hollards, then pretty much becoming a recluse, and then the burning of Rickard and his descent in the year after that. It can seem like he didn't really snap snap until the Brandon/Rickard thing. But the book really shows how cruel he really was the entire time. His quotes and the recollections of quotes he is supposed to have made are so assholelish. Verbally, Aerys was the Joan Rivers (RIP) of Westeros.


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Wait. This sounds awesome!

Aerys + Doran's Mother = Oberyn + Elia

It makes so much sense!

:lol:

Looks like Aerys was on a mission to get every woman pregnant...

speaking of which, can we already dismiss any crazy theory of him and Ashara? She lived in DS, where Elia lived. Few chances of him to bed her. And he didn't look like he would in Harrenhall.

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Yay!! Finally the truth is out there. Aerys and Joanna had an affiar, she was banished to CR. Then in 272 came back to court one last time for the 10 year anniversary party and got knocked up by the king, then Tywin resigned as hand the next day. So begins a life of embarrassment for Tywin. He simply has to eat the knowledge during Tyrions entire life. Only to tell him with his dying words "You are no son of mine". Cuz let's face it, who would throw away their last words?




Oh sweet sweet irony.


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Yay!! Finally the truth is out there. Aerys and Joanna had an affiar, she was banished to CR. Then in 272 came back to court one last time for the 10 year anniversary party and got knocked up by the king, then Tywin resigned as hand the next day. So begins a life of embarrassment for Tywin. He simply has to eat the knowledge during Tyrions entire life. Only to tell him with his dying words "You are no son of mine". Cuz let's face it, who would throw away their last words?

Oh sweet sweet irony.

Aerys didn't accept Tywin resigning.

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:lol:

Looks like Aerys was on a mission to get every woman pregnant...

speaking of which, can we already dismiss any crazy theory of him and Ashara? She lived in DS, where Elia lived. Few chances of him to bed her. And he didn't look like he would in Harrenhall.

It looks like Robert was the true heir of Aerys after all.

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It looks like Robert was the true heir of Aerys after all.

I think Robert is too remote a relative to be ahead of Dany. The rule that all male heirs come before female heirs does not mean you have to search in cadet branches for males before going to a female. Robert was a Baratheon and not a Targayen. More important, his claim is derivative of his grandmother, Rhaelle. Given that Dany comes before Rhaelle (if she had still been living), Dany comes before Robert under any reasonable interpretation of the rule.

I also believe R&L were married, and thus Jon is legit and comes before Dany, but that is a different argument.

And yes, I know you were trying to be funny, but in case anyone took the argument seriously, I wanted to correct any misperceptions.

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Well, if A+J=T is true, then Aerys had the special gift of impregnating women he met for the last time in his life. Not that it proves anything at all... just, dunno, seems strange.



GRRM definitely wants us to weigth the possibility, IMHO.



But holy hell, if this theory is proven right, as much as I believe it, I sure hope that R+L=/=J. Your mileage may vary, but as far as I am concerned, two out of six (or only three, depends how you count it) main characters turning out to be secret Targaryen bastards is simply one too many.


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Yay!! Finally the truth is out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbBX6aEzEz8

Aerys and Joanna had an affiar, she was banished to CR. Then in 272 came back to court one last time for the 10 year anniversary party and got knocked up by the king, then Tywin resigned as hand the next day. So begins a life of embarrassment for Tywin. He simply has to eat the knowledge during Tyrions entire life. Only to tell him with his dying words "You are no son of mine". Cuz let's face it, who would throw away their last words?

Who's that meek Tywin you speak of who accepts humiliations stoically, and why does he share the same name with the Tywin we know from ASOAIF?

Oh sweet sweet irony.

I don't think you know what that word means.

First, I must say that I enjoyed Aerys and all of his craziness. It was a fun read. And maybe I shouldn't have, but I really laughed at his outbursts. And yes, I need him to be played by Gary Oldman one day. He's the only one who could portray the madness.

I agree with the first paragraph. In fact, I think Rhaella dismissed Joanna because she feared that, by sleeping with her, Aerys could cause considerable damage as she was the wife (or betrothed, can't remember) or a very important lord.

I also agree that many women in the Kingdom didn't go to the Kings' beds willingly, and that included 'good old chap' Robert Baratheon and many Lords. Being a charismatic man doesn't make the abuse less of an abuse.

About bold part, I partially agree. I don't believe Aerys wanted Joanna because she was pretty good Joanna and he was infatuated. He wanted her like he wanted many other women and she got away. His comments had little to do with Joanna, but he was in a constant competition with Tywin, as he got healthy twins after Rhaella miscarried several times, etc.

From Barristan's comments to Dany, it sounds like Aerys wanted Joanna specifically, more than all those other women, because otherwise Barry would have had no need to single her out. Barry also implies that Aerys did not love Joanna, but had a sexual obsession with her. Perhaps because she got away? Or because of his long rivalry with Tywin? Aerys felt threatened enough to take out Ilyn Payne's tongue because Payne claimed that Tywin was the one really ruling the kingdom, enjoyed taking Tywin's heir and golden boy away from him and expected Jaime to choose him over his father, and there was that story that Stannis tells about him and Robert seeing Tywin on the throne once when Aerys was away, not realizing who he was at first, being iimpressed by him and thinking that this was what a king should look like.

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I think Aerys and Joanna definitely had a thing. I don't know that I am convinced that it occurred or continued after Aerys married Rhaella. And I definitely don't think any of Joanna's children were Aerys'. But I definitely think in their youth there was some boot knocking there. And I doubt Tywin would have been unaware of it. Perhaps Joanna being worthy of a king even played a role in his belief that he could betroth his daughter to the crowned prince.


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Well, if A+J=T is true, then Aerys had the special gift of impregnating women he met for the last time in his life. Not that it proves anything at all... just, dunno, seems strange.

GRRM definitely wants us to weigth the possibility, IMHO.

But holy hell, if this theory is proven right, as much as I believe it, I sure hope that R+L=/=J. Your mileage may vary, but as far as I am concerned, two out of six (or only three, depends how you count it) main characters turning out to be secret Targaryen bastards is simply one too many.

I guess, Jon is the only secret Targ in my book. Tyrion is a bastard, a Hill, and Aegon is a Blackfyre.

These are 3 very different scenarios IMO.

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The fact that Rhaella dismissed Joanna after the marriage, suggests that a menage à trois quietly continued after the marriage, and that Rhaella was abhorred by it, and thus got rid of Joanna.



Young Tywin was also much different than the old man - he even took the Crown's debts upon himself, something he does not even consider doing for Joffrey!



In my opinion Tywin is some sort of Ellyn Reyne in regards to the Targaryens. He served Egg as a squire, from him he would have learned what a king should be - even if he did not share his view on politics. His friendship to Aerys clearly grew out of his urge to be close to the royal family, to what the Targaryens stood for during the reign of Aegon V. That's what shaped Tywin's childhood.



The affair between Aerys and Joanna did not change that, since Tywin remained a Targaryen fan until the very end. He even hoped to be recalled to court after Jon Connington failed. That does not suggest that he wanted to kill the dynasty...


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