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LordBloodraven

Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

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So let me summarize. People who want Tyrion to be Aerys's are obviously proven right here. People who want the Golden Twins to be Aerys's are absolutely proven right here. People who want all Lannisters to be Tywin's are also totally proven right here. Yeah, I think this thread has it all. Will laugh my ass of if they all turn out to be the Casterly main stableboy's bastards.

:lol:

and so accurate.

Citadel conspiracy? Involvement of Pycelle?

I definitely see a Citadel conspiracy involved in something, and I quite believed Pycelle being the one who kept Elia sick so she wouldn't have more children to benefit Cersei. The book has debunked a few things, I should crackpot eventually again.

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Yeah, the point of my post was that nothing is 'proven' and nobody will be dissuaded of whatever notion he/she had before.


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If A+J=T, it will be revealed. We might have to wait for the final book (Book 7, hopefully series won't go to a Book 8), but if A+J=T, it is important and will be revealed. So if not revealed by the end, then it was a dead-end theory. If it is revealed--well then it was revealed as true. Until then, I agree that the arguments will continue to be rehashed.

You forget about Selmy--he was KG at the time and might have been outside the door during the "action". If A+J=T, GRRM will have a way for the readers to learn about it in a way that leaves little doubt.

Selmy is just one possibility. The main point is that GRRM is the author--he can invent any way of providing proof that he wants. If A+J=T, it will be an important plot point, which means it has to become known in some fashion. If it never becomes known to the readers, then it did not happen. That is how these type of stories are written. It is fiction--where the important plot twists are eventually revealed to the readers.

With all due respect to Mladen, it seems clear that GRRM wanted to keep alive the possibility of J+A=T; he could easily have ensured that TWoIaF made it absolutely impossible by making J and A on opposite sides of the continent in the year prior to T's birth. However, I also don't agree with UnmaskedLurker that this question will or needs to be resolved. I think GRRM is toying with fantasy readers' expectations regarding the importance of bloodlines, whether its our expectation regarding the secret prince/princess who is dramatically revealed, or our expectation regarding the subversion of this trope. He gets his readers all invested in in-world notions of the importance of blood, but then every now and again reminds us that we're moderns who aren't supposed to care about that stuff. He has consistently avoided indicating whether Targ/dragonlord blood is needed for the control of dragons. Now, you could be right that in the end he may want to make a decisive statement, whether it's "all that bloodline stuff is ideological bullshit" or "there's magic in the blood," but I think it's just as likely that he might want to leave it an open question. Plenty of very good fiction leaves you with unresolved questions or unsolved mysteries, and there's something quite realistic and profoundly human in such uncertainty.

After all, even if Ser Barristan told Tyrion: "I heard Aerys banging your mum about 9-10 months before you were born," would Tyrion even then be certain that Aerys and not Tywin was his dad?

I like the uncertainty (even though I think Tyrion is Tywin's son).

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Yeah, the point of my post was that nothing is 'proven' and nobody will be dissuaded of whatever notion he/she had before.

Well I am, I was never certain before about the twins and now I am, they are Tywins children for sure. Joanna was not near Aerys when she got pregs with the them, this is fairly straightforward.

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.And yes - there are much stronger clues for A+J=C+J, particularly Cersei's love of fire, her growing similarities to Aerys, the fact Jaime directly compares her to Aerys,

Tyrion's pyrophiliac tendencies had been prominent since childhood, he has been memserized by wildfire on the blackwater, Tywin compared him to Aerys, he is charming, social and a womanizer, like young Aerys was.

the fact Joffrey is directly compared to Aerys

Compared by Tyrion, who didn't actually know Aerys. But in fact, TWOIAF revealed that Joffrey wasn't much like a young Aerys at all. In addition to the above, young Aerys fought on the Stepstones and wasn't in the habit of killing small animals. Also, Lannisters had some sadists in their pedigree as well, as did all other noble Houses.

and has strong similarities with some of the crazy/asshole Targs (like Aerion Brightflame),

Who was actually not inbred at all and half-Dayne to boot, heh! Of course, looking at the Dorkstar one can readily see that Daynes have their share of douches too.

Aerys' weird attitude to/possessiveness of Jaime including expecting Jaime to choose him over Tywin,

At an earlier point, Aerys had rejected Jaime as a squire for Rhaegar. He had also acutely envied Tywin his twins. He was also initially terrified of Jaime after inducting him into KG, because he belatedly realized that Tywin's son would be guarding him with sword in hand. That's why he sent him to KL from Harrenhal. His trust in Jaime in the end was due to complete madness, nothing else.

Genna's statement that "Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you" which could be taken literally even though Genna didn't mean it that way...

Yet we don't take many such statements about Jon and Ned literally because... Arhurian archetype? The trope shall reign?

each of those on its own and all those collectively are stronger than the clues for A+J=T.

Really? There is nothing there, except for Cersei reacting to wildfire when Tower of the Hand was being burned down, which Tyrion had also done during the Battle of the Blackwater, in addition to his life-long obssession with fire and dragons.

There aren't that many secret Targs just waiting to be revealed.

There are tons of people having some Targaryen blood, actually. Even Brienne might be a Targaryen descendant. Just from legitimate marriages, leave alone all the bastards that must have been produced. Egg's elder brothers had been both womanizers and so was Aerys in his youth.

As I have been saying the whole time, it has never been a question of one unknown bastard or two.

And anyway, if Tyrion's hair was pale white, people would notice and mention it. They don't.

Eh, Jon does in our very first description of Tyrion. Which is, BTW exactly the same thing Dunk thought about Prince Maekar when he first saw him. There are a few other descriptions later as well, IIRC.

There is also a question of where Tyrion's black hair-streak and black eye could have come from. And as it happens, Black Betha Blackwood, Aerys's grandmother could have been the source of it. We know of nobody who could have supplied such from the Lannister side.

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I hate this theory, but, that passage seems to lend support that any or all of the Lannister children could be Targaryens.


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I hate this theory, but, that passage seems to lend support that any or all of the Lannister children could be Targaryens.

Not really. It's just a confirmation of the already well known rumors of Joanna having something with Aerys. The theories are still the same.

In fact, I'd say this confirms both Cersei and Jaime ARE NOT Aerys'. Tyrion, on the other hand...could be.

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Tyrion's pyrophiliac tendencies had been prominent since childhood, he has been memserized by wildfire on the blackwater, Tywin compared him to Aerys, he is charming, social and a womanizer, like young Aerys was.

Compared by Tyrion, who didn't actually know Aerys. But in fact, TWOIAF revealed that Joffrey wasn't much like a young Aerys at all. In addition to the above, young Aerys fought on the Stepstones and wasn't in the habit of killing small animals. Also, Lannisters had some sadists in their pedigree as well, as did all other noble Houses.

Who was actually not inbred at all and half-Dayne to boot, heh! Of course, looking at the Dorkstar one can readily see that Daynes have their share of douches too.

At an earlier point, Aerys had rejected Jaime as a squire for Rhaegar. He had also acutely envied Tywin his twins. He was also initially terrified of Jaime after inducting him into KG, because he belatedly realized that Tywin's son would be guarding him with sword in hand. That's why he sent him to KL from Harrenhal. His trust in Jaime in the end was due to complete madness, nothing else.

Yet we don't take many such statements about Jon and Ned literally because... Arhurian archetype? The trope shall reign?

Really? There is nothing there, except for Cersei reacting to wildfire when Tower of the Hand was being burned down, which Tyrion had also done during the Battle of the Blackwater, in addition to his life-long obssession with fire and dragons.

There are tons of people having some Targaryen blood, actually. Even Brienne might be a Targaryen descendant. Just from legitimate marriages, leave alone all the bastards that must have been produced. Egg's elder brothers had been both womanizers and so was Aerys in his youth.

As I have been saying the whole time, it has never been a question of one unknown bastard or two.

Eh, Jon does in our very first description of Tyrion. Which is, BTW exactly the same thing Dunk thought about Prince Maekar when he first saw him. There are a few other descriptions later as well, IIRC.

There is also a question of where Tyrion's black hair-streak and black eye could have come from. And as it happens, Black Betha Blackwood, Aerys's grandmother could have been the source of it. We know of nobody who could have supplied such from the Lannister side.

Very nice post! Way to break down the rant with facts from the books :)

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Not really. It's just a confirmation of the already well known rumors of Joanna having something with Aerys. The theories are still the same.

In fact, I'd say this confirms both Cersei and Jaime ARE NOT Aerys'. Tyrion, on the other hand...could be.

Eh, it adds in that she was dismissed as a lady in waiting, and mentions the king's propensity to "whore" around w/his ladies in waiting....I don't see how that isn't adding fuel to the fire, especially for the twins being secret targs.

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Eh, it adds in that she was dismissed as a lady in waiting, and mentions the king's propensity to "whore" around w/his ladies in waiting....I don't see how that isn't adding fuel to the fire, especially for the twins being secret targs.

Doesn't the book say Joanna was not in KL when the twins were conceived?

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Doesn't the book say Joanna was not in KL when the twins were conceived?

Yes specifically, that's why that theory is, IMO, at an end now. And quite the opposite for Tyrion, the fuel is being thrown heavily onto that fire.

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Devils advocate: Why do the twins need to be conceived at KL? (I still say it was in a stable somewhere!)


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IMO all the new information really does is keep alive rather than crush the possibility that Aerys could have fathered a child on Joanna. I don't think the new information made it seem any more likely that he actually did. Was Joanna already pregnant when she brought Cersei and Jaime to court? Did she become pregnant during or after? When was Tyrion actually born, and how long after Joanna was in KL was he born? Did Aerys and Joanna ever actually see eachother other than the comment he made which caused Tywin to try to resign? It really just raises more questions. I think it is possible. But I don't think it happened.


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Doesn't the book say Joanna was not in KL when the twins were conceived?

Does it say where the king was? Just because she didn't go back to KL during that timeframe doens't mean she could not have hooked up with the king, and it further throws fire on the idea of Tyrion being a Targ as well.

Which as I said, I hate the idea of any of the Lannister children being secret Targs, twins or Tyrion. Hate It. And, instead of ending the speculation, this makes one of those two outcomes more likely. Did I mention I will hate that? LOL.

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Does it say where the king was? Just because she didn't go back to KL during that timeframe doens't mean she could not have hooked up with the king, and it further throws fire on the idea of Tyrion being a Targ as well.

Which as I said, I hate the idea of any of the Lannister children being secret Targs, twins or Tyrion. Hate It. And, instead of ending the speculation, this makes one of those two outcomes more likely. Did I mention I will hate that? LOL.

In 266 AC, at Casterly Rock, Lady Joanna gave birth to a pair of twins, a girl and a boy, “healthy and beautiful, with hair like beaten gold.” This birth only exacerbated the tension between Aerys II Targaryen and his Hand. “I appear to have married the wrong woman,” His Grace was reported to have said, when informed of the happy event.

The following year, 267 AC, saw the death of Lord Tytos Lannister at the age of six-and-forty. Reportedly, his lordship’s heart burst as he was climbing a steep turnpike stair to the bedchambers of his mistress. With his passing, Ser Tywin Lannister became the Lord of Casterly Rock and Warden of the West. When he returned to the west to attend his father’s funeral and set the westerlands in order, King Aerys decided to accompany him. Though His Grace left the queen behind in King’s Landing (Her Grace was pregnant with the child who proved to be the stillborn Princess Shaena), he took their eight-year-old son Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone, and more than half the court. For the better part of the next year, the Seven Kingdoms were ruled from Lannisport and Casterly Rock, where both the king and his Hand were in residence.

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The reason that I tend to believe A+J=T has nothing whatsoever to do with wish fulfillment. I view these issues like a puzzle and just want to be correct. GRRM has planted so many clues that Tyrion might be a Targ bastard that if Tyrion is not, then GRRM simply laid numerous red herrings to entertain himself. I admit that each of these clues might be explained another way--but taken together, they suggest that GRRM is preparing for an eventual reveal of A+J=T.

Now I will turn to your supposed counter-evidence:

(1) The book "proves" that Tryion inherited Tywin's traits--not at all. Physical traits are inherited. Personality traits are just as likely to be developed by the child trying to emulate the parent. When Tyrion is described as the "true" son of Tywin based on Tyrion's personality, these trait are equally likely a matter of Tyrion striving to be like his father. Jaime (the bio-son) tried in many ways to be the opposite of his father, and so was not his "true" son. But Tyrion (not the bio-son of Tywin) wanted his "father's" approval so badly, that Tyrion took on Tywin's traits. This evidence means nothing in terms of biological connection--and everything to do with the nature of their relationship.

That's not really true. Character traits and values are more affected by nurture, but intelligence, talents and temperament are all strongly influenced by nature, not just physical traits. Tyrion does not share Tywin's ethics and values (fortunately), but he has Tywin's intelligence, strategic mind and talent for politics, and his temperament is also quite similar to Tywin's. Cersei has done her best to emulate Tywin, but it doesn't help her since she doesn't have the same talents and intelligence, and her impulsiveness gets the better of her more often than it did to Tywin or Tyrion.

GRRM always makes certain that his characters show the temperament and other traits of at least one of the parents if not both. Sansa is unlikely to have tried to emulate Ned rather than Catelyn, and she's been brought up more by Cat and her septa than Ned, but she has Ned's temperament rather than Catelyn's. Arya, according to Ned, has a similar temperament to Lyanna, though she's never met her. Jon got his ethics and values from Ned, and has Stark looks, but his melancholy temperament with rare but sudden and intense bursts of passion sounds a lot like what we know about Rhaegar.

In particular, you'd think that if GRRM was trying to hint that someone is the secret child of someone else, he'd make that person somewhat similar to the secret parent. I don't see any similarities between Tyrion and Aerys.

He has the hair color. He has mismatched eyes (a Targ bastard is one of the only other characters described this way). He has an obsessive interest in dragons. I think those are some Targ traits.

He doesn't have the hair. He has blonde and black hair, not silver. Not is either of his eyes purple, indigo or violet. The maesters also have an obsessive interest in dragons, particularly Marwyn, I guess he's also Aerys' son?

(2) Invalidate the story arc--well this is completely subjective. I don't agree at all. I think Tyrion's attempt to please his father is even more tragic once he learns that Tywin was not Tyrion's bio-dad. Tywin is dead, so anything that becomes known only after his death cannot have as big an impact on the story arc as you suggest. But I think the real point is that from the readers' point of view, we are left to believe that their relationship was destined to be doomed. I don't see how that is an invalidation of the story arc--it just adds more texture.

I don't see how it would be more tragic. I only see how it would resonate less strongly and feel like letting Tyrion off the hook for kinslaying/patricide in the eyes of, at least, his contemporaries, many of the fans, and Tyrion himself. (Personally, I think the one who brought you up is your true parnt, but many don't feel that way. And they wouldn't feel that way in Westeros. But I also cheered when he killed Tywin. :D)

(3) Validate Tywin's self-delusion--not at all. Tywin hated Tyrion because he was deformed, not because he was Aerys's son. From the readers' point of view, as a modern audience, we are not meant to justify Tywin's actions because, unknown to Tywin, Tyrion was really the child of Aerys. Tywin's actions toward Tyrion are still equally reprehensible.

Exactly. He wanted to believe Tyrion was someone else's bastard, because he couldn't handle the knowledge that he had fathered a "monster", he, the great Tywin Lannister. But I don't think he ever really believed it. If he had, he would have found a way to get rid of Tyrion long time ago.

And he certainly would not have been cozy with Aerys for years and years after Tyrion was born, trying to get Cersei to marry Rhaegar, and only cutting off ties with Aerys when Aerys took Jaime into the KG. Nor would he have waited so long and been in two minds whether to join the rebels, nor would Aerys - crazy as he was - be such an idiot to think that his old friend Tywin was coming to save him, if Aerys had indeed had an affair with Joanna during her marriage and Tywin knew it. We're talking about Tywin Lannister, the extremely proud, vindictive and ruthless man who doesn't take any perceived slight or insult - and I'm supposed to believe that Tywin knew that Aerys had cuckolded him, the greatest insult possible, but just swallowed it? Hell no.

I'm sure that deep inside he always knew Tyrion was his son, and that he was the most similar to him as Genna pointed out, that's why he got so furious when she told him so.

The bottom line is that it does not matter whether you or I think this development would enhance or detract from the story--only what GRRM thinks.

This is one of the most pointless and illogical arguments that I see people using over and over to try to shut up those who disagree with them. Unless you've read GRRM's mind, how does your statement make an argument in your favor? I can also say "it does not matter what you think.... only what GRRM thinks, and he's clearly not setting Tyrion to be a Targ bastard". We're debating about what you and I think, not about what GRRM thinks, since he's not there to say it.

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I don't actually have the book, but one friend of mine told me it's specifically mentioned Aerys wasn't anywhere near Joanna when the twins were conceived. Anyone has a quote?


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Eh, it adds in that she was dismissed as a lady in waiting, and mentions the king's propensity to "whore" around w/his ladies in waiting....I don't see how that isn't adding fuel to the fire, especially for the twins being secret targs.

It seems to make twins as Targs less likely--but the big info on Tyrion as a Targ bastard is the information about Joanna being in KL during the year prior to Tyrion's birth for the 10-year celebration of Aerys's coronation. Many people have argued that Aerys could not be the father because Joanna was at CR. But we now know that during a period that could be the time of conception, she was in KL. Why give this piece of information, given the other clues of A+J=T, if is not another clue in support.

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Thx for posting :)

So yeah, the twins are Tywins children. That is what this book is saying. The twins were born during the 'happy' period of Tywin and Joanna's marriage. They were left alone at CR until after the twins were born.

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