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LordBloodraven

Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

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Well, the quotes you posted before say nothing about 265 AC when the twins were conceived? Just that Aerys was really jelly about their births in 266 AC and some stuff about later in 267 AC, so I don't get it.


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Well, the quote you posted before say nothing about 265 AC when the twins were conceived? Just that Aerys was really jelly about their birth's in 266 and some stuff about later in 267, so I don't get it.

I don't actually have the book. But many friends of mine are telling me that there is a specific quote in which is clearly mentioned Aerys and Joanna were hundreds of miles apart when the twins were conceived.

If anyone can post the quote, I'll be very happy.

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I don't actually have the book, but one friend of mine told me it's specifically mentioned Aerys wasn't anywhere near Joanna when the twins were conceived. Anyone has a quote?

Actually, what I have here is just the quote saying that after Rhaella dismissed Joanna, she seldom visited King's Landing. Then, we have a paragraph about Rhaella's struggles in childbirth and in the next paragraph, the birth of the twinst in Casterly Rock is mentioned. Certainly no mentioning that Aerys was or wasn't around at the time Joanna got pregnant.

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I guess I don't see that as disproving the twins being Targs.

Well, it's mentioned Aerys went to CR after Tytos' death. It would be weird to mention that if he had been already there, wouldn't it?

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Certainly no mentioning that Aerys was or wasn't around at the time Joanna got pregnant.

Would also be a rather strange thing to specifically mention, IMHO.

Well, it's mentioned Aerys went to CR after Tytos' death. It would be weird to mention that if he had been already there, wouldn't it?

Which has to do with the twins conception how?

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I'm sure that deep inside he always knew Tyrion was his son, and that he was the most similar to him as Genna pointed out, that's why he got so furious when she told him so.

This is one of the most pointless and illogical arguments that I see people using over and over to try to shut up those who disagree with them. Unless you've read GRRM's mind, how does your statement make an argument in your favor? I can also say "it does not matter what you think.... only what GRRM thinks, and he's clearly not setting Tyrion to be a Targ bastard". We're debating about what you and I think, not about what GRRM thinks, since he's not there to say it.

While I could address all of your points and go back and forth, I don't think it would be productive. But I wanted to address this last point because I realize I was unclear in my intent with that argument. What I really was trying to say is that with respect to your second and third point, reasonable people can disagree. Some people think it would enhance the story arc and some people think it would detract from the story arc. And many of these arguments are based on personal reaction to the text--not actual textual analysis. So the issue is what evidence do we have that GRRM would consider such a development to detract from the text. What evidence do we have that GRRM would view it one way rather than the other way. That is what I was trying to get across--that the argument needs to be more textual based. And I will admit that in this last post, you were more textual in your analysis of these points, so this last issue essentially has been addressed, at least in part, by this post of yours. I still disagree, and if I had more patience right now, I would point out my issues--but I think we have gotten each other's point across enough at this time and we can agree to disagree.

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Would also be a rather strange thing to specifically mention, IMHO.

Which has to do with the twins conception how?

It's mentioned in the book Joanna wasn't in KL when she got pregnant. She wasn't there, so Aerys had to be near her.

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Suzanna, I would very much like if you could post a quote of Joanna not being at KL when she got pregnant, or whatever. Because I don't stop hearing it, from both my friends and many posters here, but I don't have the exact quote.


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Would also be a rather strange thing to specifically mention, IMHO.

Which has to do with the twins conception how?

Especially when it's the mother of the current queen they are writing about, and the conception in question is the queen's own one. At the time of writing, Tywin was even alive and he would most certainly not appreciate it. From his PoV, it was probably bad enough that the rumours about Aerys bedding Joanna were so rampant that Pycelle felt the need to disprove them.

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It's mentioned Joanna wasn't in KL when she got pregnant. She wasn't there, so Aerys had to be near her.

Ah, so we're back at the stable.

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If anyone can post the quote, I'll be very happy.

Hope this helps

in 266 AC, at Casterly Rock, Lady Joanna gave birth to a pair of twins, a girl and a boy, "healthy and beautiful, with hair like beaten gold". The birth only exacerbated the tension between Aerys II Targaryen and his hand. "I appear to have married the wrong woman" his grace was reported to have said, when informed of the happy event. Nonetheless, he sent each child its weight in gold as a nameday gift and commanded Tywin to bring them to court when they were old enough to travel. "And bring their mother,too, for it has been too long since I gazed upon that fair face," he insisted.

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it has been too long since I gazed upon that fair face

How long is "too long"? (Maybe it was dark in the stable).

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Sorry, I dont have the book on hand at work.



I see the post about 266 twins were born and Aerys made comments about marrying the wrong woman, but can someone post the one about Rhaella banishing Joanna and Tywin after 263? I gathered that Joanna and Tywin were sent away from court when they were married in 263 and that Rhaella and Aerys didnt see them again until after the twins were born.




ETA: Oh here it is. To me it sounds as though Joanna only came back to KL for the 10 year anniversary party.



"Sadly, the marriage between Aerys II Targaryen and his sister, Rhaella, was not as happy; though she turned a blind eye to most of the king's infidelities, the queen did not approve of his turning my ladies into his whores. (Joanna Lannister was not the first lady to be dismissed abruptly from Her Grace's service, nor was she the last)".



"The scurrilous rumor that Joanna Lannister gave up her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of his fathers coronation and enjoyed a brief reign after he ascended the Iron Throne as his paramour can safely be discounted".



"It has been reliably reported, however, that King Aerys took unwonted liberties with Lady Joanna's person during her bedding ceremony, to Tywin's displeasure. Not long thereafter, Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister from her service. No reason for this was ever given, but Lady Joanna departed at once for Casterly Rock and seldom visited King's Landing thereafter."


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I see the post about 266 twins were born and Aerys made comments about marrying the wrong woman, but can someone post the one about Rhaella banishing Joanna and Tywin after 263? I gathered that Joanna and Tywin were sent away from court when they were married in 263 and that Rhaella and Aerys didnt see them again until after the twins were born.

Emphasis mine. That's the thing. You could be totally right. Or not.

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Emphasis mine. That's the thing. You could be totally right. Or not.

"Sadly, the marriage between Aerys II Targaryen and his sister, Rhaella, was not as happy; though she turned a blind eye to most of the king's infidelities, the queen did not approve of his turning my ladies into his whores. (Joanna Lannister was not the first lady to be dismissed abruptly from Her Grace's service, nor was she the last)".

"The scurrilous rumor that Joanna Lannister gave up her maidenhead to Prince Aerys the night of his fathers coronation and enjoyed a brief reign after he ascended the Iron Throne as his paramour can safely be discounted".

"It has been reliably reported, however, that King Aerys took unwonted liberties with Lady Joanna's person during her bedding ceremony, to Tywin's displeasure. Not long thereafter, Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister from her service. No reason for this was ever given, but Lady Joanna departed at once for Casterly Rock and seldom visited King's Landing thereafter."

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but Lady Joanna departed at once for Casterly Rock and seldom visited King's Landing thereafter.

So? There is still no mention of when the seldom visits took place, let alone if all after the twins birth.

ETA: Also wow, you people were not kidding about Pycelle (?) protesting rather loudly though.

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So? There is still no mention of when the seldom visits took place, let alone if all after the twins birth.

Sure, but then you have the quote of Aerys saying he hasn't seen Joanna for too long. And that he was jelaous of the twins. Any way you see it, it's less likely right now that the twins are Aerys'.

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Any way you see it, it's less likely right now that the twins are Aerys'.

See there is something we can settle for. Proven, not so much.

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See there is something we can settle for. Proven, not so much.

We are just using our knowledge of the English language to come to conclusions. Based on what is in WOIAF it would not make sense to think the twins are Aerys'. There is nothing to support it, but there are several facts that lend support to them actually being Tywin's kids. Thats how hints work in literature, if there are 5 hints pointing to something, but you choose to ignore them all and say "well I need someone to spell it all out for me, because I can't read the signs myself', then they would be short boring books with no mystery.

GRRM drops small hints in the beginning, then switches to blatant hints. These are blatant hints that the Twins are not Aerys'.

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