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LordBloodraven

Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

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It's mentioned in the book Joanna wasn't in KL when she got pregnant. She wasn't there, so Aerys had to be near her.

No it isn't, as far as I can tell. It says that Rhaella dismissed Joanna not long after Aerys was said to have taken unwonted liberties when Tywin and Joanna married in 263, and that Joanna departed to Casterly Rock at once and seldom visited King's Landing after that. It does not say where any of them were when Cersei and Jaime were conceived, it just skips from talking about all of Rhaella's miscarriages, premature births, etc., to the birth of Cersei and Jaime in 266.

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I definitely see a Citadel conspiracy involved in something, and I quite believed Pycelle being the one who kept Elia sick so she wouldn't have more children to benefit Cersei. The book has debunked a few things, I should crackpot eventually again.

The GoHH prophecized that tPtwP would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. If there is an anti-magic Citadel conspiracy, then they should try to make sure that no one would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

Pycelle is also a known murderer as in the case of Jon Arryn.

I agree that he might have a hand in the strong reaction of Elia to childbirth.

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Sure, but then you have the quote of Aerys saying he hasn't seen Joanna for too long. And that he was jelaous of the twins. Any way you see it, it's less likely right now that the twins are Aerys'.

Aerys is quoted as saying he appears to have married the wrong woman, sent each child their weight in gold, and commanded Tywin to bring them to court when they were old enough to travel, and their mother too, for it has been too long since he gazed upon her fair face. Aerys brought the court to CR the following year, but Cersei and Jaime do not appear to have been brought to KL until 272. It definitely doesn't put them in the same place, but it gives us no information about where any of the players were when Cersei and Jaime were conceived. I am not sure where the idea that the theory is refuted or made unlikely by the book comes from, but I haven't seen anything along those lines. I definitely wouldn't say it gives it more support, it just doesn't really do anything either way.

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Sigh. Sure you can read the seldom visits as every ten years (What? So in 273 and then she died? Ah, that's where the Tyrion stuff comes from.) but then I can read it as every sixth month or so. No, maybe GRRM will never spell it out but you're the one claiming he somehow already has, which is bullshit IMHO.


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I agree that he might have a hand in the strong reaction of Elia to childbirth.

Elia gave birth to Rhaenys at Dragonstone, though, and most likely Aegon, too. As Grand Maester, Pycelle might have travelled there to attend her. Or not.

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The GoHH prophecized that tPtwP would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella. If there is an anti-magic Citadel conspiracy, then they should try to make sure that no one would come from the line of Aerys and Rhaella.

Pycelle is also a known murderer as in the case of Jon Arryn.

I agree that he might have a hand in the strong reaction of Elia to childbirth.

Problem is that Elia was living in Dragonstone. Unless Pycelle was sent there for the time of the delivery.

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Aerys is quoted as saying he appears to have married the wrong woman, sent each child their weight in gold, and commanded Tywin to bring them to court when they were old enough to travel, and their mother too, for it has been too long since he gazed upon her fair face. Aerys brought the court to CR the following year, but Cersei and Jaime do not appear to have been brought to KL until 272. It definitely doesn't put them in the same place, but it gives us no information about where any of the players were when Cersei and Jaime were conceived. I am not sure where the idea that the theory is refuted or made unlikely by the book comes from, but I haven't seen anything along those lines. I definitely wouldn't say it gives it more support, it just doesn't really do anything either way.

in 266 AC, at Casterly Rock, Lady Joanna gave birth to a pair of twins, a girl and a boy, "healthy and beautiful, with hair like beaten gold". The birth only exacerbated the tension between Aerys II Targaryen and his hand. "I appear to have married the wrong woman" his grace was reported to have said, when informed of the happy event. Nonetheless, he sent each child its weight in gold as a nameday gift and commanded Tywin to bring them to court when they were old enough to travel. "And bring their mother,too, for it has been too long since I gazed upon that fair face," he insisted.

It says it's been a long time since the last time Aerys saw Joanna, and we already know Rhaella sent Joanna off the court. Of course, t's not 100% proven the twins are not Aerys', but we are given some facts that certainly help to dismiss the theory.

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It says it's been a long time since the last time Aerys saw Joanna, and we already know Rhaella sent Joanna off the court. Of course, t's not 100% proven the twins are not Aerys', but we are given some facts that certainly help to dismiss the theory.

Only if you take Aerys' words at face value - that he was counting and saying what he thought. I, for one, take them to be an attempt to humiliate Tywin by implying that he had had something with his wife and so he misses her.

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Aerys is quoted as saying he appears to have married the wrong woman, sent each child their weight in gold, and commanded Tywin to bring them to court when they were old enough to travel, and their mother too, for it has been too long since he gazed upon her fair face. Aerys brought the court to CR the following year, but Cersei and Jaime do not appear to have been brought to KL until 272. It definitely doesn't put them in the same place, but it gives us no information about where any of the players were when Cersei and Jaime were conceived. I am not sure where the idea that the theory is refuted or made unlikely by the book comes from, but I haven't seen anything along those lines. I definitely wouldn't say it gives it more support, it just doesn't really do anything either way.

It gives clues that Aerys and Joanna were not together at time of conception. We know that Joanna was sent to CR and "seldom" returned. While it is possible that she returned at time of C&J conception (seldom is not never or even only once in 10 years), but it suggests Joanna was less likely to have been in KL. Then the book says that Aerys stated at the time of the twin's birth that it has been a long time since he last saw Joanna. Tywin would have known if Joanna had been to KL (or Aerys to CR) during the prior 9 months, so that statement from Aerys would not make sense if they had been in the same location at the time of conception. So while we have an "unreliable narrator" and arguably ambiguous statements, they strongly suggest that Aerys and Joanna were not in the same location at the time of C&J conception. Now at the time of Tyrion's conception, Joanna potentially was at KL. Thus, the book makes A+J=C+J less likely (and A+J=T more likely). That is how hints in literature work.

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It seems to make twins as Targs less likely--but the big info on Tyrion as a Targ bastard is the information about Joanna being in KL during the year prior to Tyrion's birth for the 10-year celebration of Aerys's coronation. Many people have argued that Aerys could not be the father because Joanna was at CR. But we now know that during a period that could be the time of conception, she was in KL. Why give this piece of information, given the other clues of A+J=T, if is not another clue in support.

Agreed, the strongest argument against the theory was always the need for an opportunity between Aerys and Joanna - "one was in KL and the other in CR" has been mentioned often. And Barristan's remark in ADWD about Joanna and Aerys wasn't always accepted as evidence that they may have had sex at some point, usually the argument being that there was no way Tywin would allow that and stay with Joanna. However, the World Book makes it quite clear that there was an affair - at least at some point - and yet Tywin didn't leave Joanna. It also shows that, as GRRM would put it, neither Joanna nor Aerys were nailed to the ground in CR and KL, respectively.

I found this contrast between two passages interesting:

Aerys about Tywin and the birth of Tyrion “The gods cannot abide such arrogance. They have plucked

a fair flower from his hand and given him a monster in her place, to teach him some humility at last.”

Aerys two years later, after losing his son Jaehaerys: "Afterward, King Aerys fasted for a fortnight and made

a “walk of repentance” across the city to the Great Sept, to pray with the High Septon. On his return, His Grace

announced that henceforth he would sleep only with his lawful wife, Queen Rhaella. If the chronicles can be believed,

Aerys remained true to this vow, losing all interest in the charms of women from that day in 275 AC."

Did Aerys feel guilty, did he fear somewhere along the line that it was HIS arrogance "the gods cannot abide"?

I think Aerys may have belatedly realised Tyrion may well have been his own bastard, rather than a child of Tywin.

Regarding the twins, I agree with those who say that Aerys' attitude towards them points to Aerys believing they are truly Tywin's. I see no reason why a daughter of himself and Joanna (yet acknowledged as a trueborn, so not even a bastard in the judicial sense) would not have been good enough for Rhaegar, or why Jaime wouldn't have been good enough as a squire.

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It says it's been a long time since the last time Aerys saw Joanna, and we already know Rhaella sent Joanna off the court. Of course, t's not 100% proven the twins are not Aerys', but we are given some facts that certainly help to dismiss the theory.

No indication is given about how long it had actually been since he saw her. She had been dismissed by Rhaella around three years earlier, and we are given no indication either way of whether or not she and Aerys had seen each other since. We are really given no information that dismisses the theory, and certainly none that proves the theory. It basically has the same legs to stand or not stand on as before the book came out.

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He is a dragon (and will probably ride a dragon) but he is not one of the three heads of the dragon. Young Griff was introduced in Book 5--such an important role is not fulfilled in a series like this by a character introduced in Book 5. The three heads are destined to work together to save humanity in the War for the Dawn. YG cannot be one of those saviors. TG's role has been introduced as a foil for Dany in DoD 2.0. He will die in DoD 2.0. He will not be one of the heads of the dragon.

This is just your personal supposition. While I agree that YG is probably solely introduced as a foil for Dany,and most likely "the lie to be slain", didn't GRRM also say that the three heads need not be Targaryen? Bran, or really anyone, could be the third head if that's the case. There really isn't a need for another secret Targ. Maybe I just hope there isn't another secret Targ.

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Agreed, the strongest argument against the theory was always the need for an opportunity between Aerys and Joanna - "one was in KL and the other in CR" has been mentioned often. And Barristan's remark in ADWD about Joanna and Aerys wasn't always accepted as evidence that they may have had sex at some point, usually the argument being that there was no way Tywin would allow that and stay with Joanna. However, the World Book makes it quite clear that there was an affair - at least at some point - and yet Tywin didn't leave Joanna. It also shows that, as GRRM would put it, neither Joanna nor Aerys were nailed to the ground in CR and KL, respectively.

I found this contrast between two passages interesting:

Aerys about Tywin and the birth of Tyrion “The gods cannot abide such arrogance. They have plucked

a fair flower from his hand and given him a monster in her place, to teach him some humility at last.”

Aerys two years later, after losing his son Jaehaerys: "Afterward, King Aerys fasted for a fortnight and made

a “walk of repentance” across the city to the Great Sept, to pray with the High Septon. On his return, His Grace

announced that henceforth he would sleep only with his lawful wife, Queen Rhaella. If the chronicles can be believed,

Aerys remained true to this vow, losing all interest in the charms of women from that day in 275 AC."

Did Aerys feel guilty, did he fear somewhere along the line that it was HIS arrogance "the gods cannot abide"?

I think Aerys may have belatedly realised Tyrion may well have been his own bastard, rather than a child of Tywin.

Regarding the twins, I agree with those who say that Aerys' attitude towards them points to Aerys believing they are truly Tywin's. I see no reason why a daughter of himself and Joanna (yet acknowledged as a trueborn, so not even a bastard in the judicial sense) would not have been good enough for Rhaegar, or why Jaime wouldn't have been good enough as a squire.

Great find regarding the juxtaposition of the Aerys quotes--thx. :bowdown:

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No indication is given about how long it had actually been since he saw her. She had been dismissed by Rhaella around three years earlier, and we are given no indication either way of whether or not she and Aerys had seen each other since. We are really given no information that dismisses the theory, and certainly none that proves the theory. It basically has the same legs to stand or not stand on as before the book came out.

Sure, but the argument : "Joanna was in KL when the twins were conceived" is right now extremly less plausible, don't you think?

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Sigh. Sure you can read the seldom visits as every ten years (What? So in 273 and then she died? Ah, that's where the Tyrion stuff comes from.) but then I can read it as every sixth month or so. No, maybe GRRM will never spell it out but you're the one claiming he somehow already has, which is bullshit IMHO.

I dont think you are giving enough credit to Rhaella, she was the Queen of Westeros after all, I think a banishment from the Queen would last longer than 6 months. Plus Joanna was newly married and pregnant soon after, Tywin loved her. But despite all that, you really think she was whisking herself back and forth to KL during those 3 years?

That makes zero sense.

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It gives clues that Aerys and Joanna were not together at time of conception. We know that Joanna was sent to CR and "seldom" returned. While it is possible that she returned at time of C&J conception (seldom is not never or even only once in 10 years), but it suggests Joanna was less likely to have been in KL. Then the book says that Aerys stated at the time of the twin's birth that it has been a long time since he last saw Joanna. Tywin would have known if Joanna had been to KL (or Aerys to CR) during the prior 9 months, so that statement from Aerys would not make sense if they had been in the same location at the time of conception. So while we have an "unreliable narrator" and arguably ambiguous statements, they strongly suggest that Aerys and Joanna were not in the same location at the time of C&J conception. Now at the time of Tyrion's conception, Joanna potentially was at KL. Thus, the book makes A+J=C+J less likely (and A+J=T more likely). That is how hints in literature work.

In the case of Cersei and Jaime it gives us no idea where any of the parties were at the time they were conceived. We don't know how many, if any, of Joanna's seldom returns to KL occurred between 263 and 266. It may be she had never seen Aerys since Rhaella canned her. We aren't told either way. In the case of Tyrion it gives us no idea where any of the parties were at the time he was conceived. It tells us Joanna brought the twins to KL in 272 and gave birth to Tyrion in 273. Obviously it leaves open the possibility. But it doesn't tell us whether she was already pregnant or not at the time, it doesn't tell us how long after her visit to KL Tyrion was born. The book, as far as I can tell, did not include anything to prove or disprove that Aerys fathered any children on Joanna, whether Cersei and Jaime and or Tyrion.

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In the case of Cersei and Jaime it gives us no idea where any of the parties were at the time they were conceived. We don't know how many, if any, of Joanna's seldom returns to KL occurred between 263 and 266. It may be she had never seen Aerys since Rhaella canned her. We aren't told either way. In the case of Tyrion it gives us no idea where any of the parties were at the time he was conceived. It tells us Joanna brought the twins to KL in 272 and gave birth to Tyrion in 273. Obviously it leaves open the possibility. But it doesn't tell us whether she was already pregnant or not at the time, it doesn't tell us how long after her visit to KL Tyrion was born. The book, as far as I can tell, did not include anything to prove or disprove that Aerys fathered any children on Joanna, whether Cersei and Jaime and or Tyrion.

Sure, nothing is set in stone.

Can we all just agree now, which we never could before, that it is entirely possible that Aerys fathered at least one of Joanna's children (more likely Tyrion than the twins)? Not confirmed, just possible. Up until today, many posters have claimed that the entire theory is BS and totally impossible. I think we can at least debunk that statement.

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This is just your personal supposition. While I agree that YG is probably solely introduced as a foil for Dany,and most likely "the lie to be slain", didn't GRRM also say that the three heads need not be Targaryen? Bran, or really anyone, could be the third head if that's the case. There really isn't a need for another secret Targ. Maybe I just hope there isn't another secret Targ.

Yes, you are correct, GRRM stated something to the effect that the third head is not necessarily a Targaryen. But, of course, Tyrion is not a Targaryen, if this theory is correct, he is a non-legitimized bastard, so he is Tyrion Hill. In other words, GRRM did not say, the third head did not have to have Targ blood. If he said that, then I might agree (although "not necessarily" is not the same as "not"). But he chose his words carefully. The prophecy is that the dragon must have three heads. How can someone like Bran be a head of the dragon if he is not a dragon in any sense? Remember the quote about the Blackfyres, a dragon, whether black or red, is still a dragon. So as the son of a Targ king, Tyrion might not be a Targaryen, but he would be a dragon. Bran--not so much--he is of House Stark--i.e., of a wolf. I don't understand how GRRM could explain someone like Bran being a head of the dragon. In the series, the term dragon has always meant someone of House Targ. The prophecy uses the term dragon. No matter what confusing clues GRRM gives in a SSM, unless he directly states that Targ blood has absolutely nothing to do with being a head of the dragon--a logical reading of the text dictates that the three heads of the dragon must be of House Targ in some sense.

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Elia gave birth to Rhaenys at Dragonstone, though, and most likely Aegon, too. As Grand Maester, Pycelle might have travelled there to attend her. Or not.

Problem is that Elia was living in Dragonstone. Unless Pycelle was sent there for the time of the delivery.

I am sure that he could have produced an excuse to take the matter to his hands as he was the Grand Maester. That is what he did when he sent Colemon away. And since Elia was not a strong woman in the beginning and her healt was delicate, Pycelle might have convinced Aerys to let him do the deliveries as the Grand Maester.

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By the old gods and the new the 6 month thing was an exaggerating joke and you don't have to convince me that it is entirely possible that Aerys fathered at least one of Joanna's children, because I still would love it the most if all of them were (Tyrion alone is a bit cheesy, I think).



Now what's this Pycelle Conspirancy against poor Elia (hasn't that woman suffered enough) that you folks keep going on about? I'm not sure I did quite follow that.


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