Aerys and Joanna (TWOIAF Spoilers)

[Bael's Bastard]

Sure, but the argument : "Joanna was in KL when the twins were conceived" is right now extremly less plausible, don't you think?

If someone were arguing that Joanna was in KL when the twins were conceived, I would say we have no proof of that. If someone were arguing that she was in CR, I would say we have no proof of that. We don't know where she was. The book doesn't address where she was when she conceived them. Just as it does not address where she was when Tyrion was conceived. It definitely puts Joanna in KL the year before she died giving birth to Tyrion, but was she already pregnant or not? How long after that did she give birth to Tyrion? The book proves neither theory right or wrong. IMO the only thing it makes very likely in regard to A+J theories is that a relationship between Aerys and Joanna occurred at some point or points in their lives.

[UnmaskedLurker]

If someone were arguing that Joanna was in KL when the twins were conceived, I would say we have no proof of that. If someone were arguing that she was in CR, I would say we have no proof of that. We don't know where she was. The book doesn't address where she was when she conceived them. Just as it does not address where she was when Tyrion was conceived. It definitely puts Joanna in KL the year before she died giving birth to Tyrion, but was she already pregnant or not? How long after that did she give birth to Tyrion? The book proves neither theory right or wrong. IMO the only thing it makes very likely in regard to A+J theories is that a relationship between Aerys and Joanna occurred at some point or points in their lives.

You are looking for proof when all you are going to get are clues. Yes, it does not directly state any of those things--but it gives hints. There are strong hints A&J were not together when the twins were conceived and a strong hint that they were in KL when Tyrion was conceived. Not proof--just hints and clues. You are not going to get proof unless and until GRRM is ready for the big reveal. But to discount clues and hints as if they are nothing ignores how fiction writing works.

[Ingelheim]

If someone were arguing that Joanna was in KL when the twins were conceived, I would say we have no proof of that. If someone were arguing that she was in CR, I would say we have no proof of that. We don't know where she was. The book doesn't address where she was when she conceived them. Just as it does not address where she was when Tyrion was conceived. It definitely puts Joanna in KL the year before she died giving birth to Tyrion, but was she already pregnant or not? How long after that did she give birth to Tyrion? The book proves neither theory right or wrong. IMO the only thing it makes very likely in regard to A+J theories is that a relationship between Aerys and Joanna occurred at some point or points in their lives.

Ever heard of the word hint? We are never going to be told if Joanna was or not there. But it's strongly suggested she wasn't.

[Bael's Bastard]

Sure, nothing is set in stone.

Can we all just agree now, which we never could before, that it is entirely possible that Aerys fathered at least one of Joanna's children (more likely Tyrion than the twins)? Not confirmed, just possible. Up until today, many posters have claimed that the entire theory is BS and totally impossible. I think we can at least debunk that statement.

I don't think Aerys fathered any of Joanna's children, but not because I think it is impossible. And no, I definitely wouldn't agree that Tyrion is more likely than Cersei and Jaime to be fathered by Aerys.

[Anath]

Ever heard of the word hint? We are never going to be told if Joanna was or not there. But it's strongly suggested she wasn't.

Why? Because we're told of the one time she visited? One time is not seldom, it's one time.

Once again, it's the queen's mother we're talking about here, and possibly the queen's own conception. Of course they'd want to muddle it.

[Ingelheim]

Why? Because we're told of the one time she visited? One time is not seldom, it's one time.

Once again, it's the queen's mother we're talking about here, and possibly the queen's own conception. Of course they'd want to muddle it.

I'm just saying, we are told Rhaella banished Joanna, we are told Aerys had spent a long time without seeing her before she gave birth to the twins, we are told Aerys moved the court to CR AFTER Tytos died, etc.

It's strongly suggested the twins cannot be Aerys'. Now, with Tyrion...that's another matter.

[Bael's Bastard]

You are looking for proof when all you are going to get are clues. Yes, it does not directly state any of those things--but it gives hints. There are strong hints A&J were not together when the twins were conceived and a strong hint that they were in KL when Tyrion was conceived. Not proof--just hints and clues. You are not going to get proof unless and until GRRM is ready for the big reveal. But to discount clues and hints as if they are nothing ignores how fiction writing works.

You are projecting what you believe and want to be true where we are given no information either way. That period is completely omitted, and no indication is given either way. I am not discounting hints or clues. There are no hints or clues about where Joanna or Aerys were when she conceived either way. Just a big gap, because it skips from her getting fired after her marriage, to Rhaella's births and birth problems, to Joanna giving birth three years or so after she was fired. And in the case of Tyrion, the possibility is certainly kept alive, but other than not being smashed to pieces, there is nothing that indicates anything happened either, or that her time in KL fits with when she gave birth.

[Anath]

I'm just saying, we are told Rhaella banished Joanna, we are told Aerys had spent a long time without seeing her before she gave birth to the twins, we are told Aerys moved the court to CR AFTER Tytos died, etc.

It's strongly suggested the twins cannot be Aerys'. Now, with Tyrion...that's another matter.

How long is "a long time"? When I was in love, a few weeks without seeing the man was such an eternity; when things were breaking apart, a year could not be long enough.

And that's if we believe Aerys meant what he said. Personally, I saw that as an attempt to insult Tywin, just like sending gifts to the infants was a way to show his superiority and not just friendship and goodwill.

[Bael's Bastard]

Ever heard of the word hint? We are never going to be told if Joanna was or not there. But it's strongly suggested she wasn't.

Look, a number of people in this thread were talking nonsense about the twins theory being disproven, while acting like the Tyrion one was proven. In truth, neither is the case. Neither were made to seem more or less likely based on the info we were given.

[Gertrude]

I hesitate to wade in here, but we don't even know if CR or KL were the only places Joanna and Aerys could have seen each other. There are tourneys and such that draw nobility together. Obviously this is highly speculative, but isn't this all?

[UnmaskedLurker]

You are projecting what you believe and want to be true where we are given no information either way. That period is completely omitted, and no indication is given either way. I am not discounting hints or clues. There are no hints or clues about where Joanna or Aerys were when she conceived either way. Just a big gap, because it skips from her getting fired after her marriage, to Rhaella's births and birth problems, to Joanna giving birth three years or so after she was fired. And in the case of Tyrion, the possibility is certainly kept alive, but other than not being smashed to pieces, there is nothing that indicates anything happened either, or that her time in KL fits with when she gave birth.

There are hints. It states that Joanna left and "seldom" returned (a clue she was not with Aerys at time of conception). Aerys states after the twins are born that he had not seen Joanna in a long time (hint that they were not together at time of conception).

And putting Joanna in KL at a time that could have been the conception for Tyrion is more than just a possibility--when put together with all the other A+J=T clues. It is another clue.

[mb2518]

After reading AFFC, I was convinced Cersei and Aerys have to be related somehow, Sounds like a dent was put in the theory about him fathering the twins. It does seem like the two banged each other at some point though.

How did Tywin's whoring factor into all of this?

[ambi76]

I hesitate to wade in here, but we don't even know if CR or KL were the only places Joanna and Aerys could have seen each other.

STABLE!!! In the dark. But hush, there are clues. Somewhere.

Shall we talk about Pycelle now?

Or maybe I'll just go to bed.

[Annara Snow]

Tyrion's pyrophiliac tendencies had been prominent since childhood, he has been memserized by wildfire on the blackwater, Tywin compared him to Aerys, he is charming, social and a womanizer, like young Aerys was.

Tyrion is not "charming", not in the way Aerys was supposed to be, for sure, and he's really not particularly 'social'. His only friend is a sellsword he pays, and he has a prostitute girlfriend, and that's it. Tyrion is smart, witty and funny, which nobody has said Aerys was, and Tyrion uses the charm he has to get people on his side when he desperately needs them (Bronn, the mountain clans, the crew of "Shy Maid"). But when he has the power, as when he was the Hand of the King, he doesn't try hard to charm people who could not challenge his power - he's curt and impatient and not charming at all when he's ordering the chain to be made, he is contemptuous and dismissive of the people he sees as Cersei's or Joffrey's minions and muscle, he does not even try to endear himself to the masses.

He is also not really a "womanizer" and certainly not "like Aerys was". That would be king Robert or Theon. Tyrion has sex with prostitutes because he doesn't think he can get a woman to sleep with him willingly except for gold. He even tries to have a real, long-term relationship with Shae, and all he really wants is to re-enact his first love and happiness he had with his first wife.

And he has no pyrophiliac tendencies. He used wildfire to win a battle, successfully. He didn't love fire or get turned on b it. Cersei enjoys burning the Tower of the Hand and Cersei got turned on by it. Her eyes were also compared to wildfire. Imagine if there was any passage with Tyrion's eyes compared to the wildfire, or if Jaime compared Tyrion to Aerys. I'm sure you'd be all over it!

Compared by Tyrion, who didn't actually know Aerys. But in fact, TWOIAF revealed that Joffrey wasn't much like a young Aerys at all. In addition to the above, young Aerys fought on the Stepstones and wasn't in the habit of killing small animals. Also, Lannisters had some sadists in their pedigree as well, as did all other noble Houses.

Why wouldn't it count as a "clue"? It's much better than anything that was mentioned as a "clue" for Tyrion. And you still have Joff's similarity to Aerion Brightflame, and Cersei's similarities to Aerys, which Jaime brings up... Jaime, who did know Aerys very well.

[Annara Snow]

- continued, because the forum won't let me post the entire answer in one post for some reason -

Who was actually not inbred at all and half-Dayne to boot, heh! Of course, looking at the Dorkstar one can readily see that Daynes have their share of douches too.

Relevance?

Douchiness is not something you must inherit from both of your parents, if you even inherit it at all. My point is that, if Aerion had a personality disorder/mental illness, and other Targs did, too, it was a result of recessive genes running in the family. That's the way inbreeding can affect children negatively: parents have a higher probability of both contributing a recessive gene for a congenital disease to your DNA, and two such genes produce the congenital disease. Daynes could have had them, too. Targs certainly seemed to.

At an earlier point, Aerys had rejected Jaime as a squire for Rhaegar. He had also acutely envied Tywin his twins. He was also initially terrified of Jaime after inducting him into KG, because he belatedly realized that Tywin's son would be guarding him with sword in hand. That's why he sent him to KL from Harrenhal. His trust in Jaime in the end was due to complete madness, nothing else.

Then it's really fortunate Aerys never expressed any interest in Tyrion. Because then we could take whatever is suitable and discount the rest that doesn't fit the theory as madness. But with nothing at all, I guess you can simply take the absence of any evidence as evidence for Tyrion being Aerys' son?

Yet we don't take many such statements about Jon and Ned literally because... Arhurian archetype? The trope shall reign?/quote]

Yet we immediately take such statements about Tywin and Tyrion literally ("You are not my son") but ignore others ("You are my son") because... Tyrion needs to be the Speshul Secret Targ and ride a dragon? :)

Tyrion was never obsessed with fire. Using a weapon to win a battle is not a "long-life obsession".

He also doesn't have a "life-long obsession with dragons". He is interested in them and thinks about them a lot. But only barely more than Arya, and far less than Maester Marwyn. Tysha, his father, Casterly Rock, hatred for Cersei, beautiful prostitutes, being loved and desired, getting respect - those are Tyrion's life-long obsession.

[Annara Snow]

- part 3 -

There are tons of people having some Targaryen blood, actually. Even Brienne might be a Targaryen descendant. Just from legitimate marriages, leave alone all the bastards that must have been produced. Egg's elder brothers had been both womanizers and so was Aerys in his youth.

As I have been saying the whole time, it has never been a question of one unknown bastard or two.

Yeah, exactly. There are lots of non-secret Targs. All the Martells, Baratheons and Arryns, for starters, in addition to Dany. That makes it all the less likely that every second major character will be a secret Targ. And what's with the obsession with Targ blood and the desperation to prove that Tyrion has it?

Eh, Jon does in our very first description of Tyrion. Which is, BTW exactly the same thing Dunk thought about Prince Maekar when he first saw him. There are a few other descriptions later as well, IIRC.

No. Maekar was described as a "stocky man with a silver beard". Jon think that he has pale blond hair, not silver hair, and black hair. Everyone else just sees him as blonde and black haired. Sansa observes his blond and black beard; there's no mention of silver. And nobody ever thinks that his hair is Targ-like, including all the people who were well aware what Targaryen hair looks like (Jaime, Cersei, Ned...).

There is also a question of where Tyrion's black hair-streak and black eye could have come from. And as it happens, Black Betha Blackwood, Aerys's grandmother could have been the source of it. We know of nobody who could have supplied such from the Lannister side.

Or maybe it comes from one or more of the numerous noblemen in Westeros who have black hair and dark brown eyes. Pretty much anyone in the Lannister family tree in the generations before Tywin and Joanna could have supplied it. It is extremely unlikely that nobody in the family tree going back who knows how long ever had black hair or dark brown eyes.

[Da_milkman]

I am shocked that there are still some people fighting the A + J = T theory.

The Aerys chapter in "A World of Ice and Fire" all but confirms it.

I was already convinced of this theory from the time I read the scene in SOS where Tyrion asked for Casterly Rock. Tywin said something like:

"The laws of men state you can wear my colors since I cannot prove you are not mine"

Tywin would not have said something like this unless there was a possibility Joanna slept with someone else around the time of Tyrion's conception. If Tywin was the only man she slept with there could me no doubt of Tyrion's parentage and therefore nothing to prove.

Plus, if Joanna did sleep with someone other than Tywin, the most likely person would be Ayerys because he would be the only person who could get away with something like that.

The Aerys chapter in a World of Ice and Fire confirms a number of important things:

a) Aerys was at Casterly Rock around the time Tyrion was conceived

b) Aerys desired Joanna

c) Joanna and Aerys may have slept together in the past

d) After Aerys' stay at Casterly Rock the rift between him and Tywin became more pronounced

The evidence supporting A + J= T is almost as compelling as the evidence supporting R + L = J.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Ok, the OP gave a range for when Aerys and Joanna might have had a fling. The last year given by the OP (and I don't know if that's in the book, cause my copy isn't here yet) is 265. The twins were born in 266. So, is it possible there was a nine or fewer months gap between Joanna leaving court and the twins being born? Yes. Tywin may well have smiled because he was relieved that neither of them had silver hair or purple eyes.

Again it is brought up that she would have attended court for Aerys' coronation in 272, and Tyrion was born in 273. Could this mean something? Yes.

Neither has been disproven. Neither has been confirmed. And why do people always forget that Cersei could be Aerys' daughter while Jaime is Tywin's son? Fraternal twins can have different fathers.

This new information makes me more inclined to go all or nothing--all three are Aerys' or all three are Tywin's. Wouldn't bet money on it mind you. I'd love for the twins to be split, but I wouldn't bet on that either.

- part 3 -

Yeah, exactly. There are lots of non-secret Targs. All the Martells, Baratheons and Arryns, for starters, in addition to Dany. That makes it all the less likely that every second major character will be a secret Targ. And what's with the obsession with Targ blood and the desperation to prove that Tyrion has it?

No. Maekar was described as a "stocky man with a silver beard". Jon think that he has pale blond hair, not silver hair, and black hair. Everyone else just sees him as blonde and black haired. Sansa observes his blond and black beard; there's no mention of silver. And nobody ever thinks that his hair is Targ-like, including all the people who were well aware what Targaryen hair looks like (Jaime, Cersei, Ned...).

Or maybe it comes from one or more of the numerous noblemen in Westeros who have black hair and dark brown eyes. Pretty much anyone in the Lannister family tree in the generations before Tywin and Joanna could have supplied it. It is extremely unlikely that nobody in the family tree going back who knows how long ever had black hair or dark brown eyes.

Some people mistakenly believe that he has to have Targ blood to be one of the heads of the dragon. He doesn't.

There are actually more potential Targ clues for Tyrion in the series than there are for the Twins.

Who on earth would equate the ugly Tyrion with those gloriously good-looking Targs? Just because no one makes a connection on that doesn't mean there couldn't be one. The hair is rather overpowered by the disfigurements. And...if you were writing a series where the ugly imp who's been dumped on his whole life turns out to have magic blood, would you have every other character comment on "gee, he's so much like that family with the magic blood"? No. You'd want to keep something a mystery.

That's entirely true. Tyrion's one eye is said to be black, not brown, but the point still stands. We know that House Lannister intermarried with House Baratheon (blue eyes) but we don't know that the issue of any of those unions were in the main Lannister line. We need more Lannister info!

[Dofs]

Ok, the OP gave a range for when Aerys and Joanna might have had a fling. The last year given by the OP (and I don't know if that's in the book, cause my copy isn't here yet) is 265. The twins were born in 266. So, is it possible there was a nine or fewer months gap between Joanna leaving court and the twins being born? Yes. Tywin may well have smiled because he was relieved that neither of them had silver hair or purple eyes.

The book says that Joanna left the court in 263, just after her wedding, not in 265, meaning the gap between Joanna seeing Aerys and twins being born is actually 3 years. Joanna could still visit KL in 265 but there is no information about that in the book.

[Lord Varys]

Dragonstone had its own maester, and Rhaegar ruled there. He would have decided who delivered his wife's children. Not to mention that Aerys did not give about a fig about 'those royal Dornish smelling children'.