Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Rhaenys_Targaryen

[TWOIAF Spoilers] Inconsistency or Intentional?

Recommended Posts

As was noted in another thread, there seem to be slight inconsistencies every now and then in the World of Ice and Fire. That's not so strange, as it is a huge project, and keeping everything straight must be difficult after a while, especially when multiple people work on the same project.

A second thing to consider, is: is it truly an inconsistency that you spotted, that could potentially be fixed in a second edition/online edition? Or, as happens on occasion in asoiaf, is it intentional?

Thus it seemed useful to make a thread about this, to keep track of all these mentionings, and give people a place to gather them all.

List of confirmed mistakes and their correction:

Edwyle Starks sister Jocelyn Stark was married to Benedict Royce, not "Benedict Rodgers" (Source)

"Harrold Rogers", the spouse to Branda Stark (Rodrik Stark's daughter), is correct. It should not be "Harrold Royce"

Aelinor was born a Penrose, not a Targaryen (as Jeor Mormont mentions in Clash). Aelinor Penrose was a cousin of Aerys I

First print, page 231: Robert killed Rhaegar in 283AC, not in 282AC

First print, page 159: "son of the late prince Aegon" is incorrect. Jaehaerys was Aegon's younger brother

The spelling of Myriah Martell's name is now Mariah Martell, canonically

Laenor Velaryon is named the eldest sibling on the family tree, yet he was the younger, as described in The Rogue Prince, and on GRRMs Not a Blog

TRP is in error. It is Orwyle who cut off Viserys I's fingers, not Gerardys.

Bloodraven was imprisoned by Aegon V, as the World Book states, not by Maekar, as the app states.

On page 59, in the part about Maegor's brides, it is said that Alys Harroway was the first of his wifes to become pregnant in 48 AC. This is confirmed to have to have been 44AC.

In the Stark family tree, Rodwell Stark and Donner Stark are not bolded, while Bran listed them as Lords in the main series.

-> Donnel and Rodwell have been confirmed to have been Lords of Winterfell. This correction should already be in the third print.
Jaehaerys became king at the age of 14 in 48 AC (-->born 34 AC) and married his sister once he reached his majority (16 years-->50 AC). It is said that the marriage lasted 46 years placing Alysanne's death in 96 AC. However, a few pages later we learn that she died less than a year after their daughter Gael in 99/100 AC. -> The 46 years is still correct. Fire and Blood will explain how.

Several years are listed for Tywin becomming Hand of the King, and marrying Joanna Lannister, which took place one year later. The correct years are: Tywin's birth took place in 242AC, the betrothal of Genna to Emmon Frey in 252AC, Tywin becomming Hand in 262AC, and thus Tywin marrying Joanna in 263AC.

The Riverlands and Ironborn section are at odds with each other in regards to where Harwyn's Ironborn carried the ships to the Blue Fork (north or south). You get the right place by consulting the map, though.

The marriage of Jaehaerys I and Alysanne is mentioned to have occured in 50AC, when Jaehaerys reached majority. It is stated that the marriage lasted 46 years, which would suggest that Alysanne (who died first) died in 96AC. However, the entry on their children states that Alysanne died within a year of daughter Gael's death, and Gael died in 99AC, placing Alysanne's death in 99AC or 100AC -> No mistake. There are Two Quarrels mentioned. The Second Quarral is stated to have lasted 2 years, the other one to have lasted either 1 or 2 years. So you'd get either 50AC + 46 + 2 + 1 = 99AC, or 50AC + 46 + 2 + 2 = 100AC, making you reach Alysanne's date of death.

It has been confirmed the Quarrels weren't counted into the "marriage" years.


Lucas Harroway is listed as Hand overseeing the build of the Red Keep, which was finished in 45AC. Not directly stated in text, is that he never lived to see the project finished.. Earlier, it has been confirmed that Alys fell pregnant and birthed a "monstrosity" in 44AC (and no 48AC, as the first prints wrongly state). Maegor suspected the Harroways of having been the cause soon thereafter, and had the whole family killed, meaning that House Harroway died out in 44AC.

Morgan Hightower is the younger brother of Martyn Hightower. Patrice is their maiden aunt, she's not the maiden aunt of the High Septon.

Lord Banfred Hightower, whose name we learned due to notes taken from a reading, is incorrect. The correct name, as stated in The World of Ice and Fire is Manfred Hightower.

Stannis Baratheon was born in 264 AC

While the Westerlands reading from ConCarolinas gave the name of Jeyne Marbrands father as Denys Marbrand, the name has been changed into Alyn Marbrand, as can be read in the book. Alyn is related in an unknown way to the Denys Marbrand we meet in The Hedge Knight.

The anniversary tourney of 272 AC occured in King's Landing (as is stated on page 116), not in Lannisport (as stated on page 124).

Joffery Lydden is supposed to be spelled Joffrey Lydden.

Rhaena Targaryen (daughter of Aenys I and Alyssa Velaryon) was born in 23 AC. The wording concerning a possible betrothal between her and Maegor (in 25 AC) was to get Maegor's age during his actual marriage across, not the age at which the betrothal was suggested (which then occured in 23 AC, when Maegor was 11).

It is currently unclear whether Aegon (son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Elia Martell) was born in the last few weeks of 281 AC, or the first few weeks of 282 AC.

Black Aly Blackwood is the aunt of Benjicot Blackwood, not his sister (as the world book states).

On p 259 Lomas Longstrider is misspelled as Loras.

First Edition, page 150 : on the Riverlands map, the High Road is labelled as the River Road.

List of "(possible) mistakes mentioned on thread":

Alyssa Velaryon is referred to as Jaehaerys' grandmother more than once. Of course, she is his mother.

Viserys Targaryen (son of Aerys and Rhaella) is mentioned to have been born in 276AC. In A Game of Thrones, Dany noted that Viserys was 8 when he escaped KL. That's supposed to occure in 283AC, and thus, Viserys would have been born in 275AC.. Was Dany simply misremembering?

The Targaryen family tree has Aerea Targaryen, Cassana Estermont, Rhaenys Targaryen (Rhaegars daughter), Gael Targaryen listed as males, whereas they are all female.

The Targaryen family tree has Laenor Velaryon stated to be older than Laena Velaryon, whereas TRP showed that Laena was the eldest. Further, Daenaera Velaryon is misspelled Valeryon.

The Lannister family tree has misspelled Jaime Lannister "Jamie". Myrielle is misspelled as "Myielle". Further, Willem and Martyn Lannister aren't stated to be twins anymore?

Also, Kevan Lannister is bold, while he was never a ruling Lord. Cersei isn't bold, while she was mentioned to be the Lady of CR in Dance. Cerelle Lannister is supposed to be bolded as well.

The Sworn Sword states that the Redgrass Field was 15 years ago, The Mystery Knight states it has been 16 years ago, suggesting that the two events occured in a different year (meaning, that despite the possibility existing that only a few months passed in between the two stories, the year has turned). The World Book states that the Redgrass Field occured in 196AC, and the Second Blackfyre Rebellion (TMK) in 211AC. That would make it 15 years, not 16 years..

There are these conflicting quotes about Lomas Longstrider, but I assume this is an intentional inconsistency:

Lomas Longstrider reports that, even in far Asshai-by-the-Shadow, there were merchants who asked him if it was true that the “Lion Lord” lived in a palace of solid gold and that crofters collected a wealth of gold simply by plowing their fields.

Is there any truth to these grim fables brought back from the end of the earth by singers and sailors and dabblers in sorcery? Who can say?Lomas Longstrider never saw Asshai-by-the-Shadow.

Gogossos is spelled as Gorgossos.

Lotus Port (so named in tLoiaf) is named Lotus Point in the World Book. Which one is correct?

The section of House Arryn states that House Arryn married into House Targaryen twice. That's supposed to be trice. (Daella Targaryen to Lord Arryn, Aemma Arryn to Viserys Targaryen, Alys Arryn to Rhaegel Targaryen).

On page 319, first print, the overview of reigns states that Joffrey's reign ended in 299AC. He died in 300AC, so his reign ended in 300AC as well.

First print, page 191, column on the left, fourth paragraph

"These tidings united his three eldest sons: the Targaryen were done, they told him, and House Greyjoy must needs join the rebellion at once or lose any hope of sharing in the spoils of victory".

Targaryen should be spelled Targaryens

The section on the three sisters of Baelor I states:

Her second marriage was at the behest of Aegon the Unworthy’s successor, King Daeron the Good. Daeron wed her to his master of coin, and this union led to two more children [...]

According to the family tree, Elaena had four children with her Penrose husband.

On the Lannister family tree: Lyonel Frey's wife, Melesa Crakehall, is missing from the tree.

The Westerland section and section on the reign of Aerys II list different years for the birth of Tywin Lannister, the year he was named Hand, and the year of his wedding to Joanna.

There are contradictions about the Tourney at Lannisport and KL to celebrate Aerys' 10th year on the throne (placed conversation about it, as problem is a bit complicated):

  • I have a question that hopefully Ran will answer--where was the Anniversary Tourney of 272 AC held--King's Landing or Lannisport. On p. 115, the books states that court returned to KL in 268 AC. On p.116, the Anniversary Tourney of 272 AC is discussed and Joanna presents the twins before the court. That information suggests the 272 tourney was in KL--where court had returned in 268. Further, on p. 117, the Lannisport Tourney of 276 AC was held to celebrate the birth of Prince Viserys, held by Tywin presumably as a gesture toward reconciliation. This information also makes more sense if the 272 tourney was held in KL--otherwise the 276 tourney would not make sense as an effort toward reconciliation if the 272 tourney was also in Lannisport and it would seem strange to have two major tourneys in the same location so close in time.

    But then on p. 124, the book explicitly states that the great Lannisport Tourney of 272 AC was hosted by Tywin in celebration of Aerys II's tenth year on the throne. So now what is reference as the "Anniversary Tourney" on p. 272 (and implied to have been held at KL) is reference as the Lannisport Tourney (and explicitly stated as having been held in Lannisport).

    Is this an inconsistency? Or am just incorrectly interpreting the earlier information as suggesting KL as the location (and the reference to court is merely a statement that court is wherever the king is located at that moment) and the 272 tourney clearly was held at Lannisport? Thoughts?

  • That is a curious mistake indeed. I took it that anniversary tourney took place in KL since it states that Joanna presented Cersei and Jaime there to court - that would not have been the case in the West where the king and the court would actually have the guests of Lord Tywin. And we also know that Aerys was rather recently in the West - when Tytos died in 267 AC.

    I'd imagine that either Tywin was in charge of staging the celebration tourney in KL, or Yandel confuses the tourney in the West in 276 AC (Viserys' birth tourney) with the 10th anniversary tourney of 272 AC. I guess the latter would make more sense, since the former clearly would have been paid for by the Crown, even if Tywin had organized it.

    No idea if any of this is intentional, though.

  • LV--the explanation cannot be just a matter of Tywin staging the celebration tourney in KL because on p. 124, the book specifically states: " . . . at the great Lannisport tourney of 272 AC, hosted by Lord Tywin Lannister in celebration of Aerys II's tenth year upon the Iron Throne." (emphasis added) Either Yandel is confusing the 272 tourney with the 276 tourney or both were held in Lannisport (which does not really make sense).

  • Aerys' reign states that Joanna brought the twins from Casterly Rock to court to present them before the king. Since it is not mentioned in that text that the court moved in the West before that, it is heavily alluded that this tourney took place in KL, not in Lannisport/CR. The court would reside in CR, I imagine, if Aerys had come into the West, so there would have been no need for Joanna to go anywhere to present her children to the king.

    p. 116, second column

  • Unmaksed Lurker pointed out on another thread that the tourney of 272 is at 2 different locations. It must be a mistake.

    The information on p. 116 strongly implies (but not explicitly states) that the 272 tourney was at KL. On p. 117, the discussion of the 276 tourney in Lannisport is stated as an effort of reconciliation, which would not make sense if 4 years earlier the tourney was also in Lannisport. But then on p. 124 the text clearly states the 272 tourney was in Lannisport. I wonder if this is an editing mistake.

  • Another thing that would make it unlikely for Aerys to travel to Casterly Rock for his own anniversary is that was recently there - in 267/8, after Tytos died - and the first cracks in their relationship occurred during unspecified events back then - which had, possibly, also to do with the splendor, might, power, and wealth of House Lannister.

    In 276 AC, though, this would have been much farther back in the past...

There is also a contradictory as to when the Tourney of Harrenhal was first announced (280 vs. 281 AC - or the texts of 'Aerys II' vs. 'The Year of the False Spring').

Page 63 of the first edition under Jaehaerys I - apparently: "thousands of tents sprang up over the moons, until the castle town of Harrenton was accounted the fourth largest city in the Realm." Should "moons" be "moors"?

Is Harrenton a mistake? Is it meant to be Harrentown?

Geography of the Sarne River in Essos seems to go by the HBO map from the Season 2 DVDs, and thereby contradicts The Lands of Ice and Fire.

We're told that Valyria never had trade with CR, yet later we're told that House Lannister bought a Valyrian steel sword in Valyria for a price "enough to raise an army".

The overview of Targaryen reigns gives the reign of Baelor I from 157AC to 161AC, and the reign of Daeron I from 161AC until 171AC. Baelor I and Daeron I should be switched.

On page 228, first column, on two occasions it is stated "Prince Laenor" instead of simply "Laenor of House Velaryon" (when the Great Council is discussed), or "Ser Laenor", when his children by Rhaenyra are mentioned. This contradicts TRP and TPATQ where Laenor is never described as being a Prince, nor is Laena at any occasion described as Princess.

The ladies Baela and Rhaena (Prince Daemons daughters) are also both called princess on multiple occasions in the book, whereas they are described as "Lady" in TRP and TPATQ.

First print (US) -> the first sentence of Age of Heroes states that "greet deeds were accomplished." Should probably read "great deeds".

The Riverlands and Ironborn section are at odds with each other in regards to where Harwyn Hardhands Ironborn carried the ships to the Blue Fork (north or south). This concerns page 154 and page 186. One states "forty leagues south of Seagard", the other "north of Seagard".

In the chapter concerning the Iron Islands, the following is stated about Torgon the latecomer:

"To their dismay, the captains and kings chose Urrathon Goodbrother instead."

It seems this should be Urragon Goodbrother, as stated in A Dance with Dragons.

Steffon Baratheon is mentioned to have been a knight during the War of the Ninepenny Kings (apparently at the age of 14). He was still a squire when the war began. Was he truly knighted this young? Or was he still a squire and is the naming of "ser" Steffon incorrect?

Page 202 states that Stafford Lannister was the eldest son and heir of Jason Lannister, yet the family tree in the book (and the westerlands-reading material from ConCarolinas) clearly states that Jason had an older son, Damon Lannister, from his first marriage (to Alys Stackspear).

House Justman is stated to have been a First Men house in the Iron Islands chapter, and an Andal house in the Riverlands chapter. -> the respons to this was

[...] the line comes from George that suggests he was an Andal king... but right after that he contradicts that by pointing out Benedict the Bold was half-Blackwood, half-Bracken, both First Man houses. What he must have meant was that he was the first king to follow the Seven to unify the riverlands, as the Andal petty kings before him just fought one another over their little petty kingdoms. Will tweak that in future editions.

In the Westerlands section, Drox and Brax are both spelt with an E on the end.

The first edition states:

In 136 AC, Aemon followed. He was as robust as Aegon as an infant, and as beautiful to look upon, but his brothers faults were not in him. He proved the greatest jouster and swordsman of his agea knight worthy to bear Dark Sister.

The following sentence has appeared online, quoted:
In 136 AC, Aemon followed. He was as robust as Aegon as an infant, and as beautiful to look upon, but his brothers faults were not in him. He proved the greatest jouster and swordsman of his agea knight worthy to bear Dark Sister which Prince Daemon, King Jaehaerys I, King Maegor I, and Queen Visenya had each borne before him.

This additional sentence has been cut from the published text.

In the last section about the Free Cities and the East, when mentioning the works Wonders and Wonders Made by Man, the author is referred to as Lomas Longstrider & Loras Lonstrider at different times.

House Parren is seen in the Reach section, where it is stated that they are an Andal house from there. The Westerlands sections has them as an Andal house from the westerlands.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I found a couple myself:



Page 231, it says that Robert Baratheon killed Rhaegar Targaryen in 282AC. This should be 283AC, right?



Page 159, "As his enemies rose around him, the Tully's rallied to the banners of Prince Jaehaerys Targaryen, son of the slain Prince Aegon, in the final year of his cruel uncle's reign". -> should either be "son of the late King Aenys", or "brother of the slain Prince Aegon", right?



The name Myriah Martell (so spelled in Feast), is here spelled Mariah Martell. Are they both correct?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Viserys Targaryen (son of Aerys and Rhaella) is mentioned to have been born in 276AC. In A Game of Thrones, Dany noted that Viserys was 8 when he escaped KL. That occured in 283AC, IIRC, and thus, Viserys would have been born in 275AC?






The age of Viserys II's wife, is she 7 or 9 years older? (If I remember correctly.)




7 years his elder, noted at least twice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The wife of Aerys I is called Aelinor Penrose in the book. In the main series, according to Jeor Mormont, she was Aerys' sister,yet the text calls her a Penrose, and the family tree seems to show she wasn't a daughter of Daeron and Myriah/Mariah.

So was the Old Bear mistaken when he said Aerys and Aelinor were siblings? If so, where does Aelinor come from? She isn't a child of Ronnel, is she a child of Robin? And wouldn't both Robin and Aelinor have been extremely young upon their wedding, if that is the case?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The wife of Aerys I is called Aelinor Penrose in the book. In the main series, according to Jeor Mormont, she was Aerys' sister,yet the text calls her a Penrose, and the family tree seems to show she wasn't a daughter of Daeron and Myriah/Mariah.

So was the Old Bear mistaken when he said Aerys and Aelinor were siblings? If so, where does Aelinor come from? She isn't a child of Ronnel, is she a child of Robin? And wouldn't both Robin and Aelinor have been extremely young upon their wedding, if that is the case?

Wasn't it also said in one of Dunk and Egg stories they were brother and sister.

I can't remember which one as I don't have a copy of them but I'm sure it said Aerys was married to his sister and shunned her bed

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are certainly a number of inconsistencies, but whether they are important is a different matter. Some of them may be genuine errors but real world genealogies are absolutely riddled with them too - especially when the same given names run in families and bastards are discretely forgotten - but it would only really matter if you had a situation such as the one underpinning Kidnapped where the supposed younger brother turned out to have been the elder with all that implied for inheritance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jaehaerys II's birthday seems to have moved from 223 to 225.



Barristan Selmy specifically said in aDwD that all three of Egg's sons married for love. Yandel claims Egg's third son Daeron never married.



Geography of the Sarne River in Essos seems to go by the HBO map from the Season 2 DVDs rather than tLoIaF. Quite confusing.



Yandel seems to imply that the Second Hammer of the Waters (at the Neck) took place during the FM invasion approximately the same time as the first, instead of during the Andal Invasion. I'm looking forward to discussing that one.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A note: If errors are found in a print or digital copy, please say which, and (if print) which printing and which page(s) are involved. There's already been 3 or 4 printings, and some errors in the first printing are not now in the 3rd printing.

I found a couple myself:

Page 231, it says that Robert Baratheon killed Rhaegar Targaryen in 282AC. This should be 283AC, right?

Yes.

Page 159, "As his enemies rose around him, the Tully's rallied to the banners of Prince Jaehaerys Targaryen, son of the slain Prince Aegon, in the final year of his cruel uncle's reign". -> should either be "son of the late King Aenys", or "brother of the slain Prince Aegon", right?

This should be fixed in the 3rd printing/digital edition, but let me know if it's in one of those.

The name Myriah Martell (so spelled in Feast), is here spelled Mariah Martell. Are they both correct?

Mariah is the canonical spelling now. George used it in his manuscript, and we decided once and for all to just pick one.

Jaehaerys II's birthday seems to have moved from 223 to 225.

Page where that's at?

Barristan Selmy specifically said in aDwD that all three of Egg's sons married for love. Yandel claims Egg's third son Daeron never married.

He was married... in his heart of hearts, he was married!

(In all seriousness, I _think_ when George wrote that line for Barristan, it's either a characterization moment for Barristan or for his understanding of Daeron's relationship to his paramour, or alternatively George hadn't settled on the sort of relationship Daeron struck up until writing for this book... but in any case, we can now read it as Barristan being figurative/poetic/demure or what have you.)

Geography of the Sarne River in Essos seems to go by the HBO map from the Season 2 DVDs rather than tLoIaF. Quite confusing.

Elucidate, please. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So was the Old Bear mistaken when he said Aerys and Aelinor were siblings?

Yes. He's a lord, not a genealogist.

Aelinor was Aerys's cousin.

KCenturion,

Edition and page numbers? Those should have disappeared by the 3rd print.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jaehaerys II's birthday seems to have moved from 223 to 225.

Jaehaerys' age had previously only been mentioned in SSM. Thus it wasn't "set in stone" yet. Same goes for the age of Aerys II, who has been made younger by a year.

SSM is semi canon, and if a book states something different, that book wins.

So I wouldn't call that a mistake, personally.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, right. Yes, we're only interested in inconsistencies on the canon material -- the published books -- and anything that's been invalidated from the SSM is, generally speaking, a deliberate change which should still be fine in terms of established continuity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a question for you Ran. The "Harrold Rogers" that is described as the spouse to Branda Stark (Rodrik Stark's daughter), is it a mistake also? Is it "Harrold Royce"? If yes, which "Royce"? Thank you


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Geography of the Sarne River in Essos seems to go by the HBO map from the Season 2 DVDs rather than tLoIaF. Quite confusing.

tWoIaF p288

Eastward rose Kaseth, City of Caravans; Sathar, the Waterfall City, at the juncture of two branches of the Sarne;

On tLoIaF maps, Sathar is not on the Sarne, but on a separate river that flows north into the Bay of Tusks. In fact, the maps from tLoIaF show two rivers replacing the dried up sea mentioned in the text from tWoIaF, where that little HBO map shows one river, with one branch from around Sathar flowing west to Sarnath instead of north to the Bay of Tusks. (Yes, I had my maps out while I read it.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×