Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Rhaenys_Targaryen

[TWOIAF Spoilers] Inconsistency or Intentional?

Recommended Posts

I think that list of wielders was cut from the print version of the text.

I have the 3rd printing PDF now (in fact, there have been two printings, and a 3rd print was approved a good while ago but is only now going to press), and most of the suggested changes are in there. Many thanks, folks. I'll be able to construct an errata soonishly (aka in a week or two, busy right now). There's a number that will have to wait until the 4th print, or the paperback... or maybe e-texts can be updated before then, I do not know.

Whats the matter with the prints in other languages which will be released next year (i know the german version comes out in march)?

Will they already be updated or will they still have the small "errors" of the first edition?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that list of wielders was cut from the print version of the text.

So someone on here has a version of the book that actually has more information? Interesting...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So someone on here has a version of the book that actually has more information? Interesting...

Yep, need to start looking for other differences.

The sample page from Maegor's reign that was released a long time back is quite a bit different than the final version as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yep, need to start looking for other differences.

The sample page from Maegor's reign that was released a long time back is quite a bit different than the final version as well.

Please do!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not more information, as such. Information that was cut was as often because there was an error and it was easier or more convenient to remove than to replace.



In all honesty, it'd be better if people did not go looking at stuff that was pre-publication ready. The "samples" that were released were intended to be used internally only, drawn from very early drafts.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not more information, as such. Information that was cut was as often because there was an error and it was easier or more convenient to remove than to replace.

In all honesty, it'd be better if people did not go looking at stuff that was pre-publication ready. The "samples" that were released were intended to be used internally only, drawn from very early drafts.

So if I can ask, did Maegor ever actually wield the sword? Was that the mistake in that cut line? I know Lord Varys said it was mentioned in the reading from Fire and Blood, but it is not mentioned in the worldbook I don't think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone else wondered about Theon Stark, the Hungry Wolf?

I mean he fought both invading Andals and Harrag Hoare.

We all know that House Hoare came to power in the Iron Islands after the Andals arrived on their shores.

So were it late invasions that attacked the North when Theon Stark was in power?

Maybe the andals invaded (or intended to invade) Westeros over centuries? Its also likely that not all of them crossed the sea, since the worldbook says that the pentoshi have some andal blood. I really dont know if thats an intentional inconsistency, a really big error or just what happened (as i was trying to explain it)?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maegor did, yes. Visenya gave it to him. He happily took on Blackfyre when he could get his hands on it, of course.



The Theon Stark stuff is being sorted out. A partial fix made it into the 3rd print, but a more substantial fix isn't making it in there for some reason -- possibly because we need to run it by George, I don't know -- so hopefully a later edition will have it there.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, but we'll learn in the 3rd print when he lived and whom he fought? I mean do we get to know if he either fought the andals or harrag?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not more information, as such. Information that was cut was as often because there was an error and it was easier or more convenient to remove than to replace.

In all honesty, it'd be better if people did not go looking at stuff that was pre-publication ready. The "samples" that were released were intended to be used internally only, drawn from very early drafts.

Ok fair enough!

However, I was not just referring to those things, but also to the officially released sample page on Maegor (when 4 pages were released). Should we discount that one as well?

Here's the full text, and I suppose this might be irrelevant since there's nothing particularly juicy in this that didn't make the final cut. At least as far as I can tell:

about her… yet as soon as she arrived, Queen Visenya dismissed her son's maesters and septons and gave Maegor over to Tyanna's care.

The next morning, the king awoke, rising with the sun. When Maegor appeared on the walls of the Red Keep, standing between Alys Harroway and Tyanna of Pentos, the crowds cheered wildly, and the city erupted in celebration. But the revels died away when Maegor mounted Balerion, and descended upon Hill of Rhaenys, where seven hundred of the Warrior's Sons were at their morning prayers in the fortified sept. As dragonfire set the building aflame, archers and spearmen waited outside to those who came bursting through the doors. It was said the screams of the burning men could be heard throughout the city, and a pall of smoke lingered over King's Landing for days. Thus did the cream of the Warrior's Sons meet their fiery end. Though other chapters remained in Oldtown, Lannisport, Gulltown, and Stoney Sept, the order would never again approach its former strength.

King Maegor's war against the Faith Militant had just begun, however. It would continue for the remainder of his reign. The king's first act upon resuming the Iron Throne was to command the Poor Fellows swarming toward the city to lay down their weapons, under penalty of proscription and death. When his decree had no effect, His Grace commanded "all leal lords" to take the field and disperse the Faith's ragged hordes by force. In response, the High Septon in Oldtown called upon "true and pious children of the gods" to take up arms in defense of the Faith, and put an end to the reign of "dragons and monsters and abominations."

Battle was joined first in the Reach, at the town of Stonebridge. There nine thousand Poor Fellows under Wat the Hewer found themselves caught between six lordly hosts as they attempted to cross the Mander. With half his men north of the river and half on the south, Wat's army was cut to pieces. His untrained and undisciplined followers, clad in boiled leather, roughspun, and scraps of rusted steel, and armed largely with woodsmen's axes, sharpened sticks, and farm implements, proved utterly unable to stand against the charge of armored knights on heavy horses. So grievous was the slaughter that the Mander ran red for twenty leagues, and thereafter the town and castle where the battle has been fought became known as Bitterbridge. Wat himself was taken alive, though not before slaying half a dozen knights, amongst them Lord Meadows of Grassy Vale, commander of the king's host. The giant was delivered to King's Landing in chains.

By then Ser Horys Hill had reached the Great Fork of the Blackwater with an even larger host; close on thirteen thousand Poor Fellows, their ranks stiffened by the addition of two hundred mounted Warrior's Sons from Stoney Sept, and the household knights and feudal levies of a dozen rebel lords from the westerlands and riverlands. Lord Rupert Falwell, famed as the Fighting Fool, led the ranks of the pious who had answered the High Septon's call; with him rode Ser Lyonel Lorch, Ser Alyn Terrick, Lord Tristifer Wayn, Lord Jon Lychester, and many other puissant knights. The army of the Faithful numbered twenty thousand men.

King Maegor's army was of like size, however, and His Grace had almost twice as much armored horse, as well as a large contingent of longbowmen, and the king himself riding Balerion. Even so, the battle proved a savage struggle. The Fighting Fool slew two knights of the Kingsguard before he himself was cut down by the Lord of Maidenpool. Big Jon Hogg, fighting for the king, was blinded by a sword slash early in the battle, yet rallied his men and led a charge that broke through the lines of the Faithful and put the Poor Fellows to flight. A rainstorm dampened Balerion's fires, but could not quench them entirely...

Compare to:

The Dowager Queen, after meeting with Tyanna, gave the king over to her care alone—a fact that troubled Maegor’s supporters.

On the thirtieth day since the trial of seven, the king awoke with the sunrise and walked out onto the walls. Thousands cheered—though not at the Sept of Remembrance, where hundreds of the Warrior’s Sons had gathered for their morning prayers. Then Maegor mounted Balerion and flew from Aegon’s Hill to the Hill of Rhaenys and, without warning, unleashed the Black Dread’s fire. As the Sept of Remembrance was set alight, some tried to flee, only to be cut down by the archers and spearmen that Maegor had made ready. The screams of the burning and dying men were said to echo throughout the city, and scholars claim that a pall hung over King’s Landing for seven days.

This was only the beginning of Maegor’s war against the Faith Militant, however. The High Septon remained staunchly opposed to his rule, and Maegor continued to gather more and more lords to his side. At the battle at Stonebridge, the Poor Fellows fell in droves and it is said that the Mander ran red with blood for twenty leagues. Afterward, the bridge and the castle that commanded it became known as Bitterbridge. An even greater battle was joined at the Great Fork of the Blackwater, where thirteen thousand Poor Fellows—as well as hundreds of knights from the chapter of the Warrior’s Sons at Stoney Sept, and hundreds more besides from rebel lords of the riverlands and westerlands who joined them—fought against the king. It was a savage battle that lasted until nightfall, but it was a decisive victory for King Maegor. The king flew on Balerion’s back in the battle, and though rains dampened the Black Dread’s flames, the dragon still left death in its wake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blackfyre was the sword of the kings, so Maegor I and Jaehaerys I most certainly would have wielded Blackfyre as kings. Princes Maegor and Jaehaerys on the other had could have borne Dark Sister before they took the crown.



From 'The Sons of the Dragon' reading we learned that Visenya gave Maegor Dark Sister at one point, thus Prince Maegor wielded the sword for a time - but later on Aenys gave Maegor Blackfyre, and he wielded that sword, and no longer Dark Sister. TWoIaF states in Maegor's section that Queen Dowager Alyssa steals Dark Sister when she flees Dragonstone after Visenya's death - very much suggesting that Maegor returned the sword to his mother after Aenys gave him Blackfyre.



The same is true for Jaehaerys I. As king he would have wielded Blackfyre, the sword of kings, which was given to him by his elder sister Rhaena after she fled from KL and stole the blade from Maegor whilst he slept (also in the book, in Maegor's section). Prince Jaehaerys would still have wielded Dark Sister before Rhaena gave him Dark Sister. Much later Jaehaerys gave Dark Sister as a gift to Prince Daemon, suggesting that he did not really consider the sword to be 'his' the same sense every king from Maegor to Aegon IV must have considered Blackfyre 'the sword of the kings'.



The whole 'the sword is the kingdom' thing could not have sprung up if many Targaryen kings would not have wielded Blackfyre as their personal weapon. In that regard it is noteworthy that Prince Regent Aemond Targaryen did bear the crown of Aegon II but not the Conqueror's sword. That was reserved for the king, as one line of TPatQ actually seems to suggest.



German edition stuff:



I'll try to get any Ran-approved change into the first print. German text is already finished, though, so we'll have to try to do this by correction sheet. There is a good chance that anything I get until the Sunday night will make it in. But first I've to finish 'Die Prinzessin und die Königin'. No idea when or in what form that's going to hit the shelves but considering that a German text is made, it should be published eventually...


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also in regards to House Parren. We see in the Reach section that they are Andal house there, but the Westerlands sections has them as an Andal house from the westerlands. So two houses? Or due to the fluid borders they sorta stick with both?

Also did Drox The Corpse-Maker (who fought the Swanns) later found House Drox in the Westerlands.
Drox and Brax also recieved E's after them, which is incorrect to the books. (Sorry if someone else has said this)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

in the last section about the Free Cities and the East, when mentioning the works Wonders and Wonders Made by Man, the author is referred to as Lomas Longstrider & Loras Lonstrider at different times. i thought maybe they were brothers and one wrote one work, while the other did the second, but one name is only mentioned once, and the other is in all the other instances.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blackfyre was the sword of the kings, so Maegor I and Jaehaerys I most certainly would have wielded Blackfyre as kings. Princes Maegor and Jaehaerys on the other had could have borne Dark Sister before they took the crown.

From 'The Sons of the Dragon' reading we learned that Visenya gave Maegor Dark Sister at one point, thus Prince Maegor wielded the sword for a time - but later on Aenys gave Maegor Blackfyre, and he wielded that sword, and no longer Dark Sister. TWoIaF states in Maegor's section that Queen Dowager Alyssa steals Dark Sister when she flees Dragonstone after Visenya's death - very much suggesting that Maegor returned the sword to his mother after Aenys gave him Blackfyre.

The same is true for Jaehaerys I. As king he would have wielded Blackfyre, the sword of kings, which was given to him by his elder sister Rhaena after she fled from KL and stole the blade from Maegor whilst he slept (also in the book, in Maegor's section). Prince Jaehaerys would still have wielded Dark Sister before Rhaena gave him Dark Sister. Much later Jaehaerys gave Dark Sister as a gift to Prince Daemon, suggesting that he did not really consider the sword to be 'his' the same sense every king from Maegor to Aegon IV must have considered Blackfyre 'the sword of the kings'.

The whole 'the sword is the kingdom' thing could not have sprung up if many Targaryen kings would not have wielded Blackfyre as their personal weapon. In that regard it is noteworthy that Prince Regent Aemond Targaryen did bear the crown of Aegon II but not the Conqueror's sword. That was reserved for the king, as one line of TPatQ actually seems to suggest.

I think you are correct to assume that Blackfyre was eventually seen as symbolic of the Targaryen rule, but why should we assume that was the case as early as Jaehaerys I? We know Blackfyre became an important symbol, but we have no reason to assume it was like that from the moment Aegon died. After all, Aenys gave it to Maegor AND we know Visenya was pushing for Maegor to succeed Aenys when Aegon was still alive. If the sword was that symbolic, Aenys would likely not have given it to Maegor thus undercutting his own authority.

I think the point about Aemond not bearing the sword is interesting, and argues for your position, but for all we know Blackfyre was mentioned in tPatQ and edited out. I do find it odd that Dark Sister comes up several times yet Blackfyre comes up not at all. As much as this argues for Aemond not wielding the blade because it would be presumptious, it may argue that the sword was not seen as such an important symbol at that time. Mind you, I don't think it was ever *unimportant* but its value as a symbol was surely not static.

I think it more likely that Blackfyre became more important as a symbol later, perhaps related to the death of the dragons, or in large part to Daemon's people. Daemon had the sword for well over a decade before he rebelled, and in that decade, such talk could've developed. Rather, the sword, already somewhat important as a symbol, was talked up even moreso by Daemon's supporters. It may also be that the sword was more important as a symbol in times of dispute, such as when Maegor's right to rule was disputed. But under Jaehaerys there was no talk of rebellion or overthrow (other than by the Faith, I suppose).

Jaehaerys was extremely secure in his rule... not only was he extremely successful as a ruler, but because there were no other claimants and no cadet Targaryen branches. Under these conditions, the symbolism of the "sword of Kings" (if it was even known as such back then) would be extremely muted.

Here's another thing that argues for Jaehaerys wielding Dark Sister over Blackfyre:

If Jaehaerys wielded Blackfyre, then he passed over his own son and heir Baelon (and since he was called Baelon the Brave, he was certainly a warrior) in order to give Dark Sister to Daemon. This would be fine because one can assume Baelon was set to receive Blackfyre, but it is still odd and it raises another problem. If Jaehaerys kept Blackfyre, then Dark Sister was wielded by no one, or by Aemon. Yet if Aemon wielded Dark Sister then why didn't Baelon? Aemon died fighting pirates, surely he would've gone to battle with one or the other of the two Targaryen blades.

The alternative is that Jaehaerys didn't give Dark Sister to anyone from the period of 48-96... a conclusion I think neither of us would accept. We can say, someone else wielded it during that period...but whom? There are literally no other Targaryen males to consider, and none of the women seem to have been warriors that we know of, and all of Jaehaerys/Alysanne's children are mentioned. Alysanne herself is not much of an option either, as she died in 100, and Daemon had the sword for 4 years by then.

To me it fits better that Jaehaerys gave Blackfyre to Aemon, then to Baelon, keeping Dark Sister for himself then giving it to Daemon in his old age. It is a much smoother/simpler model from what I can tell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Aemond wielded Blackfyre I really think it would at least be mentioned when they mention the recovery of Dark Sister and Vhagar's skull years later.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If Aemond wielded Blackfyre I really think it would at least be mentioned when they mention the recovery of Dark Sister and Vhagar's skull years later.

Agree, I think we all agree Aemond didn't wield it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Targaryen line seems to be continuing from the side that has Dark Sister, not Blackfyre. Maybe that can help.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I recall didn't Darklyn take Blackfyre and Aegon I's crown when he fled Kings Landing to join the blacks on Dragonstone?

He took Jaehaerys I/Viserys I's crown with no mention of Blackfyre. Aegon II wore the Conqueror's crown and was said to have the sword in the "symbols" breakdown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×