[TWOIAF Spoilers] Inconsistency or Intentional?

[BaguastanSelmy]

I notice page of Tybald Lannister on wiki has been moved to Tywald Lannister. So Tywald is the correct one, right? :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I notice page of Tybald Lannister on wiki has been moved to Tywald Lannister. So Tywald is the correct one, right? :)

Yes. And Sarelle was never Sarelle, it was always Cerelle. That has been changed as well

[BaguastanSelmy]

Yes. And Sarelle was never Sarelle, it was always Cerelle. That has been changed as well

Good, thx :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

TPATQ states that Winterfell (thus, Lord Ellard Stark), had spoken in favor of Princess Rhaenys during the Great Council of 101, The World of Ice and Fire stated that he spoke for Laenor.

Did Lord Ellard thus speak first in favor of Rhaenys, and after her claim was dismissed, for Laenor, or is this a mistake (in either TPATQ or TWOIAF)?

[Ran]

He spoke for Laenor, but Laenor was being put forward by his mother Rhaenys, so "spoken for Rhaenys" means supporting her candidate, her son.

[El-Daddy]

Question for Ran - is there any/much material that was written for TWOIAF, and was excluded for space restraints, but isn't going to be in Fire & Blood?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Ran,

So Rhaenys' own claim was never put forward? Because the princess and the queen suggested that both Rhaenys and Laena had put forward their claim, so I figured they were part of the nine lesser claims mentioned by the World of Ice and Fire..

This sentence from the princess and the queen

The annals of the Great Council of 101 were brought forth and examined, and note was made of which lords had spoken for Viserys, and which for Rhaenys, Laena, or Laenor.

did make it sound like all three (Rhaenys, Laena and Laenor) individually tried their claim..

[Ran]

Laena and Rhaenys were not among the lesser claimants, but those who argued for their claim were very early on dismissed because of their gender. Rhaenys, so far as GRRM wrote, went to Harrenhal with the intention of pushing Laenor's claim rather than her own. Ellard supported her by calling for Laenor.

El-Daddy,

The regional sections (both for Westeros and the Other Lands) were in some cases quite trimmed down due to space constraints, and given the Targaryen focus that GRRM currently intends for Fire and Blood, I suppose those will not see the light of day any time soon. Maybe if we get a second edition of the World of Ice and Fire going, and paired with Fire and Blood can trim the Targaryen section down heavily to focus on expanding the regions... but no idea, really. I'm sure GRRM may decide to release those in some fashion.

[El-Daddy]

Cheers Ran.

[Lord Varys]

Ran,

any vague hint on the identity of those nine lesser claimants would be very much appreciated...

[Hangover of the Morning]

Didn't read the whole thread so I apologise if it has already been mentioned before.

Why does Yandel imply that Rhaegar's participation at the Tourney at Harrenhal was something unusual, and him doing well even more so?

WoIaF

The crown prince, who did not normally compete in tourneys, surprised all by donning his armour and defeating every foe he faced, including four knights of the Kingsguard.

Based on the books, it seems that Rhaegar competed in most of the big tournaments (Lannisport, Storm's End...) ever since he became a knight. He also generally did very well, often making it to the final and defeating at least one of the top tier (Barristan or Arthur).

Is Yandel trying to imply that the winnings at Harrenhal were fixed? It's possible that the four KGs took it easier on the prince but given Rhaegar's previous success at other tourneys, don't see why that would necessary have to be the case.

[RumHam]

This is a really minor thing and may not be an error, but I thought I'd mention it. Tyrion tells us Maegor's headsman "unmade" three Grand Maesters with his axe. Here we are told Gawen was killed by a single swing of Blackfyre. Tyrion could just be wrong, or Maegor had three other Grand Maesters killed after Gawen.

[Ran]

I think the surprise is "donning his armour". He rarely rode in tournaments, but always did well when he did. Little unclear, I agree, with the "and defeating", but that's what is intended.

[Maia]

Is Yandel trying to imply that the winnings at Harrenhal were fixed? It's possible that the four KGs took it easier on the prince but given Rhaegar's previous success at other tourneys, don't see why that would necessary have to be the case.

Well, we know from Barristan's PoV that he didn't throw his final against Rhaegar at Harrenhal and earnestly tried to win. He was still one of the premier jousters of the time, too, and he beat Rhaegar at the Storm End's tourney final. So, yea, I'd say that the KG didn't take it easier on the prince and they hadn't done so in the past either, as IIRC Arthur Dayne beat Rhaegar at the Tourney of Lannisport.

BTW, it is curious that Gerion Lannister, albeit not a knight, apparently was a proficient jouster? I have always thought that the two uncles defeated by Rhaegar were Kevan (who still participated in melees in his mid-fifties) and Tygett, but WOIAF says that it had actually been Gerion. So, if he had been decent at arms, why wasn't he a knight?

[Hardstone]

Is it ever stated anywhere Gerion wasn't knighted?

Arthur Dayne, Oswell Whent and Lewyn Martell are said to be Rhaegar's friends and allies amongst the Kingsguard. Barristan may not have been 'in' on Rhaegar's plot as he even admitted he wasn't that close to him.

[Hangover of the Morning]

Well, we know from Barristan's PoV that he didn't throw his final against Rhaegar at Harrenhal and earnestly tried to win. He was still one of the premier jousters of the time, too, and he beat Rhaegar at the Storm End's tourney final. So, yea, I'd say that the KG didn't take it easier on the prince and they hadn't done so in the past either, as IIRC Arthur Dayne beat Rhaegar at the Tourney of Lannisport.

BTW, it is curious that Gerion Lannister, albeit not a knight, apparently was a proficient jouster? I have always thought that the two uncles defeated by Rhaegar were Kevan (who still participated in melees in his mid-fifties) and Tygett, but WOIAF says that it had actually been Gerion. So, if he had been decent at arms, why wasn't he a knight?

All Barristan says was "If I have unhorsed Rhaegar..... (things could have been different)" so it doesn't really imply either ways.

I agree that there's no point to assume that the KGs were helping the prince since he was capable enough to win on his own merit. If the tourney was truly a pretence to present Rhaegar in a great light and sway the major and minor Houses to his side, than making him the Champion would definitely help the case. I could see the KG that were on it (Dayne and Whent) taking it easier on the prince and possibly even persuading Barry to do the same without revealing why.

That's just pure speculation and honestly there is no reason to thing that Rhaegar didn't win fair and square. At 17, he already defeated Barristan in Lannisport. I was just surprised why Yandel comments on it being unusual that the prince was competing, when he clearly did attend at least three big tournaments between 276-280.

[Mithras]

Is it ever stated anywhere Gerion wasn't knighted?

In the appendices, he is not referred to as Ser Gerion whereas Tywin, Kevan and Tygett all are.

[The Dragon Demands]

A question has come up: was Caraxes believed to be a male or a female?

The World book does not directly address this.

Yes, *we* know that dragons can shift gender, but they didn't -- thus dragons who laid eggs were assumed to be "female"....and thus we can sort of guess at least which ones might have been mothers or not in terms of dragon lineages.

The problem is that Caraxes is inconsistently referred to as "he" or "she" in The Princess and the Queen.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Talk:Caraxes

Throughout MOST of the works, Caraxes is consistently described with male pronouns: "Caraxes lifted his head", "Caraxes spread his wings" etc.

However, and specifically only during the fight at Harrenhal with Vhagar, Caraxes is described using female pronouns:

The Blood Wyrm's jaws closed about Vhagar's neck, her black teeth sinking deep into the flesh of the larger dragon. Even as Vhagar's claws raked her belly open and Vhagar's own teeth ripped away a wing, Caraxes bit deeper, worrying at the wound as the lake rushed up below them with terrible speed.

Indeed, even at the END of this fight sequence, Caraxes is once again referred to using male pronouns:

Caraxes lived long enough to crawl back onto the land. Gutted, with one wing torn from his body and the waters of the lake smoking about him, the Blood Wyrm found the strength to drag himself onto the lakeshore, expiring beneath the walls of Harrenhal.

I'm inclined to think that Caraxes was popularly believed to be a male, and that these two isolated instances of "her" are just a typo.

While I'm on the subject: has GRRM worked out the dragon lineages already, and they're in the proto-"Fire and Blood" Targaryen sourcebook....or are these still totally undecided?

I realize you can't TELL us their contents, but can Elyo or Lynda at least acknowledge if "yes, Fire and Blood will reveal the lineages of the dragons, which one sired which".

Related question: from notes you've seen, have you ever seen Vhagar's coloration described? Not that you can tell us, and I know it's always technically in flux until it appears in print. But we now know that while Balerion was black, Meraxes was silver, "with golden eyes" (perhaps having gold as a secondary color on its horns, if following previous patterns?)

Oh, here IS a question relating to the World book: Rhaena of Pentos was given an egg laid by Syrax. I assumed that Morning hatched from it. Then someone else pointed out that Rhaena was given another two eggs to take with her to the Vale, and we have no guarantee that Morning hatched from Rhaena's original egg. Can it be confirmed that Morning hatched from Rhaena's original egg from Syrax? I wonder who sired it, Caraxes?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Florian the Fool is listed alongside other First Men heroes and kings. Florian was a knight and fool so the Andals must have been present in the Riverlands, and if they were, why is a knight listed as a FM hero? It's doubtful posthumous knighthood either, him being a knight and fool were big parts of his existence.

[Biter the Gallant]

Florian the Fool is listed alongside other First Men heroes and kings. Florian was a knight and fool so the Andals must have been present in the Riverlands, and if they were, why is a knight listed as a FM hero? It's doubtful posthumous knighthood either, him being a knight and fool were big parts of his existence.

I think it is deliberate confusion. The fictive auhor of the book mentions how ridiculous it is that in popular legends knighthood or even such an institution as the Kingsguard is anachronistically used in connection with old First Men heroes. The truth might be that the maesters simply can not date Florian's life and deeds correctly at all, because they lack the reliable data to do it. Florian's legend is likely a very old tale, reinterpreted by every era according to their own culture (such as e. g. the King Arthur stories in our universe, which have ancient Celtic mythic elements mixed with the life of a Romano-British warlord, who is surrounded by knights who live according to high medieval chivalrous ideals).