[TWOIAF Spoilers] Inconsistency or Intentional?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Perhaps Manfred = Manfryd? In the way that Myriah Martell = Mariah Martell?

[Lord Varys]

Isn't there a quote in ACoK by Gendry about Ben Blackthumb specifying that the last Lothston was male?

The smith who served various Whents and the last Lord Lothston? I seem to recall something like that...

[The hairy bear]

You are right LV,

Gendry: "You know old Ben Blackthumb? He came here as a boy. Smithed for Lady Whent and her father before her and his father before him, and even for Lord Lothston who held Harrenhal before the Whents."

Mmm. This is already a very problematic statement that messes with the Whent geneology and what Geroge has said about them, so I'm starting to think that either Gendry missremembered or old Ben's memory fails. But if it's right, I guess that it's possible that there was a lord Lothston ruling for a few last years.

The Lothstons are the Estermonts of old.

Totally! :)

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

You are right LV,

Gendry: "You know old Ben Blackthumb? He came here as a boy. Smithed for Lady Whent and her father before her and his father before him, and even for Lord Lothston who held Harrenhal before the Whents."

Mmm. This is already a very problematic statement that messes with the Whent geneology and what Geroge has said about them, so I'm starting to think that either Gendry missremembered or old Ben's memory fails. But if it's right, I guess that it's possible that there was a lord Lothston ruling for a few last years.

Totally! :)

Not exactly.

If I remember correctly, GRRM has stated the following on the Whents:

• Lady Shella was the mother of the "fair maid" at the Tourney of 281 AC

Lord Whent (her husband, since the World Book known as Walter Whent) was the brother of Oswell Whent (thus confirming that Walter was a Whent by birth)

Clash of Kings states that Lady Shella's father ruled Harrenhal before her, and his father before him. (this might also indicate that Lady Shella is seen as a direct ruler)

Shella was a Whent by birth, as her father and grandfather had ruled Harrenhal prior.. Shella was married to Walter Whent, brother to Oswell Whent, and thus, Shella's husband as well was a Whent by birth.

Who is to say that Shella and Walter weren't simply cousins? That would fix the name problems, and go with everything ever stated about the Whents. In that case, we would have the following Whents:

• Unknown Lord Whent
  • His eldest son, 1
    • Shella Whent, 1's daughter

• His second son, 2
  • 2's eldest son, Walter

• 2's second son, Oswell

Shella and Walter then married and had four sons and (at least) one daughter, the "fair maid"

[Hardstone]

What happened to Harrenhal for the 20 years between Larys Strong's execution and Lucas Lothston's windfall? Was it left to the wilderness?

[The hairy bear]

Rhaenys,

Your arrengement fits with the facts we have, and it could turn to be true, but there are still a couple of "issues" with the Whent genealogy that don't feel right to me:

• If Shella and Walter were married, then surely Gendry's quote ignores Lord Walter in his "list". He may be doing that because he was not the "real" lord, but the ruler in her wif'e's name. But then, all the other sources identify him as the Lord of Harrenhal without any qualification.
  
• Lord Walter Whent is described as "old" at 281, but in 289 Ser Jorah says that he defeated some "Lord Whent" in a tourney. It doesn't seem to me that they can be the same person. But if a son of Walter and Shella had inherited Harrenhal only to die shortly thereafter, then Gendry's would be ignoring yet another lord from his list.
  

I don't know. We can make it work, but it requires a lot of weird assumptons and i'm not sure if the easier answer would be that Gendry was wrong. I had hoped that AWOIAF would clarify it a little bit.

The Whents can join the Estermonts and the Lothstons in the genealogy hell!

[Lord Varys]

KCenturion,

I expect as much. The land had to recover from the Dance, anyway, and pretty much no one would have had the money or the motivation to rebuild Harrenhal (which would have been about as worse a ruin as after the Conquest at that time).

Viserys and Aegon III must have given Lucas Lothston a lot of money as well as Harrenhal itself...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Rhaenys,

Your arrengement fits with the facts we have, and it could turn to be true, but there are still a couple of "issues" with the Whent genealogy that don't feel right to me:

• If Shella and Walter were married, then surely Gendry's quote ignores Lord Walter in his "list". He may be doing that because he was not the "real" lord, but the ruler in her wif'e's name. But then, all the other sources identify him as the Lord of Harrenhal without any qualification.

Lord Walter Whent is described as "old" at 281, but in 289 Ser Jorah says that he defeated some "Lord Whent" in a tourney. It doesn't seem to me that they can be the same person. But if a son of Walter and Shella had inherited Harrenhal only to die shortly thereafter, then Gendry's would be ignoring yet another lord from his list.

I don't know. We can make it work, but it requires a lot of weird assumptons and i'm not sure if the easier answer would be that Gendry was wrong. I had hoped that AWOIAF would clarify it a little bit.

The Whents can join the Estermonts and the Lothstons in the genealogy hell!

You and me both!

[El-Daddy]

Whents, Lothstons and Estermonts all win awards for being the most awkward families to trace.

[Hardstone]

Whents, Lothstons and Estermonts all win awards for being the most awkward families to trace.

In your scouring of the lineages, do any other houses fall into this category?

[El-Daddy]

In your scouring of the lineages, do any other houses fall into this category?

I suppose one of the most frustrating is the Darrys.

We know that Mariya and Jeyne are sisters, whose father was Lord Darry. Mariya married Merrett Frey, and Sariya married Cleos.

Raymund was (at the beginning of AGOT) the Lord, and had three older brothers that died on the Trident.

There are also Jonothor, who was in the Kingsguard and died on the Trident (so no kids there), and his brother Willem. Willem was master-at-arms in the Red Keep, who brought Dany and Viserys to Braavos and looked after them until he died. He also represented them in the pact that Oberyn made re: Arianne marrying and Dorne supporting Viserys. Again, unlikely to have children.

After Raymund and his young son Lyman were killed, it was mentioned that the male line was extinguished, save for a bastard cousin.

The relationship between all of these people are unknown, besides the two sets of siblings. Sariya/Mariya/Raymund are probably siblings, given the timeline, and Jonothor/Willem their uncles. I took a leap and made the former of these true in the tree, as I said in the notes. Given the fact that the male line was dying out, I felt it reasonable to assume they had the same father. Though I'm opening to changing it of anyone has any other evidence.

One little connection I did quite like though, and was glad I found, was how Ryswell, Tallhart and Hornwood link in with the Boltons. What is annoying, however, is how close yet far this is from connecting to the Manderlys. Every mention of "cousin" should always clarify if it's first cousin or otherwise :P

[History of Westeros]

Perhaps Manfred = Manfryd? In the way that Myriah Martell = Mariah Martell?

I've been operating under this assumption myself.

I really wonder why he had the nickname "of the Black Hood".

[History of Westeros]

There has to be 'the last Lord Lothston', possibly Mad Danelle's son who took over directly after her death, ruling only for short time. Perhaps Danelle is slain in battle and her son is Lord Lothston while Harrenhal is besieged by Maekar's troops...?

This is where my thoughts are as well.

Ben Blackthumb would be OLD in current times, but it still barely fits. TWOIAF explicitly says the Lothstons ended during the reign of Maekar, putting at least 66 years between this final Lord Lothston and current times and he said he smithed for this last lord, so he wasn't a baby at that time either.

Despite his age, it's pretty darn unlikely that he didn't made up this last Lord in his head. It would be pretty hard to forget Mad Danelle I think, and to confuse her for a man.

That said, it could be an error by Gendry, as the quote about Ben Blackthumb comes from Gendry, not BB directly.

[RumHam]

Yeah, an easy explanation would be to imagine Blackthumb mentioned smithing for "the last Lothston" and Gendry just assumed it was a man.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

But is Mad Danelle specified as he last ruling Lothston? The world book only states that the line ended after she went "rogue" (can't remember correct word), right? That does leave room for a son to take after after Danelle died

[apovsic]

But is Mad Danelle specified as he last ruling Lothston? The world book only states that the line ended after she went "rogue" (can't remember correct word), right? That does leave room for a son to take after after Danelle died

"Their line was ended in madness and chaos when Lady Danella Lothson turned to black arts during the reign of King Maekar I."

[History of Westeros]

"Their line was ended in madness and chaos when Lady Danella Lothson turned to black arts during the reign of King Maekar I."

Yeah this makes it sound as if Danelle was either the last, or that whoever took over after had a very short, possibly forgettable tenure.

Yeah, an easy explanation would be to imagine Blackthumb mentioned smithing for "the last Lothston" and Gendry just assumed it was a man.

Yeah right on, that's what I think too.

[Nittanian]

I suppose one of the most frustrating is the Darrys.

Also, when Tom is mentioning the victims of the Lannisters in ASOS-34, " [...] Becca the Baker. Ser Raymun Darry, Lord Darry, young Lord Darry. The Bastard of Bracken [...]" This implies to me that a Lord Darry succeeded Raymun when he was killed at the Mummer's Ford, and then young Lyman Darry succeeded this Lord Darry until his own death at the hands of Gregor. The end of AGOT specifies that Lyman is Rayman's son. Lyman is not specified as being Lord Darry in AGOT, but he is when the sacking of Darry is mentioned in ACOK ("Darry was only a child." 'Aye, and the last of his line as well.").

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

"Their line was ended in madness and chaos when Lady Danella Lothson turned to black arts during the reign of King Maekar I."

This does not specify that Danelle was the last of her line. Only that she caused the end of the line of Lothstons.

[El-Daddy]

Also, when Tom is mentioning the victims of the Lannisters in ASOS-34, " [...] Becca the Baker. Ser Raymun Darry, Lord Darry, young Lord Darry. The Bastard of Bracken [...]" This implies to me that a Lord Darry succeeded Raymun when he was killed at the Mummer's Ford, and then young Lyman Darry succeeded this Lord Darry until his own death at the hands of Gregor. The end of AGOT specifies that Lyman is Rayman's son. Lyman is not specified as being Lord Darry in AGOT, but he is when the sacking of Darry is mentioned in ACOK ("Darry was only a child." 'Aye, and the last of his line as well.").

Ahhh... good spot. I hadn't known of that one.

So that means we have

• Ser Raymun Darry (killed in Mummer's Ford) - he was only only ever referred to as Ser. He was head of house Darry and Lord of Darry (see quote below), but only given the title of Ser. Raymun had three older brothers who were killed on the Trident.
• Lord Lyman Darry, his young son (killed in the sack of Darry) - referred to as "Young Lord Darry" by Tom of Sevenstreams.
• Lord Darry, only ever mentioned by Tom of Sevenstreams, and was killed by the Mountain. Perhaps Tom made a mistake and is referring to Raymun again?

In addition -

• Mariya and Jeyne Darry, married to Merrett and Cleos Frey respectively.
• Their father, Lord Darry, who was high in Aerys II's favour.

And also -

• Willem and Jonothor. Willem was old and died about ten years before AGOT. Jonothor was in the KG and died on the Trident.

The royal party had made themselves the uninvited guests of its lord, Ser Raymun Darry, while the hunt for Arya and the butcher's boy was conducted on both sides of the river.

The two incongruencies which make things so confusing are the titles of Ser/Lord, and also the "Lord Darry" that Tom talks of, that isn't Raymun or Lyman.

Discounting Tom's "Lord Darry", these are the only combinations I could come up with, not including Jonothor and Willem - who are probably brothers of Jeyne/Mariya's father, but maybe cousins/uncles either. As for Tom's "Lord Darry", I haven't a clue.

This much uncertainty is actually giving me doubts on whether or not they should be in my tree actually. I think I might have to take them out, for now.