Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Ygrain

[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags

Recommended Posts

As the pinned thread in the General Forum is clogged with spoilery posts, I'm opening this thread to allow for a freely running discussion until the embargo is lifted.


Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon.
With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands, not ten leagues from Harrenhal … where Rhaegar would once again come face-to-face with Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and with her light a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides. But that tale is too well-known to warrant repeating here.


1) meaning, Dragonstone was indeed Rhaegar's seat, not KL. Also, confirming that Aegon was born BEFORE the Rebellion.

2) partly inconsistent with the previous statement that it was Whent and Dayne who participated in the abduction

3) that means that Lyanna was not coming from the North with the wedding party because Harrenhal is not on the way to Riverrun.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2) It is my understanding that they too participated in addition to 4 more men (I am guessing Mooton and Lonmouth were among them as well).

The thread's title is misleading a bit - remove "spoiler - free". :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect Mooton and Lonmouth, as well, but I do not see how this fits with the previous information from the books that no-one knew where to look for Rhaegar - sure, those two may not have been informed about Rhaegar's hideout, but would Aerys have believed them? And if they did know, would they have dared to defy the king?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, one thing concerning Mooton: he was killed by Robert himself. A battle chance, or revenge for his part in taking Lyanna or generally being close to Rhaegar?


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Defy? Probably, Rhaegar was their king, for all intents and purposes, I feel.

Maybe even JonC was with them?

But it was Aerys who had the power to make their lives very uncomfortable, that's what I meant by "defy".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, 2 of those "half-dozen" could have been Whent and Dayne. I mean, they were close friends of Rhaegar and it would make sense if he had 2 KGs protecting him. But who were the other 4? Connington didn't know anything, Myles Mooton was at the Stony Sept, which makes it likely that he wasn't involved either. This leaves us Richard Lonmouth and 3 unknowns.

Kudos to the people who have theorized years ago that Lyanna had been somewhere around Harrenhal when the "abduction" took place.

Aegon _was_ born on Dragonstone, which, together with the comet at the time of his conception made him fit the prophecy more than Lyanna's child. Also, Rhaegar didn't leave Elia and his kids with his crazy father.

And Brandon was an even greater idiot than initially suspected, because it was widely known that Rhaegar didn't live in KL, nor was a frequent visitor there. In fact, had he been even moderately sensible, if he had laid his grievance before the Mad King, it is likely that Brandon would have had Aerys's full support!

Oh, and there is no record of polygamy being accepted as legitimate in Westeros in the last couple of millenia, bar the Iron Islands, apart from the "don't ask, don't tell" situation with Aegon and his sisters. Maegor's polygamy had never been accepted and nobody else ever tried again. Nor did mere princes have authority to set their marriages aside.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My TWOIAF has not come yet but are we sure that how Lyanna meant to go to Riverrun and from where? If she was at the Vale for the time being, she might get on a ship from Gulltown and she might persuade the captain to make a pit stop at Dragonstone so that she might plead Rhaegar to use his authority and save her from the arranged marriage to Robert without causing trouble. I can also assume that they were not in love by that time. Perhaps in Dragonstone, Rhaegar promised her to do whatever he could once he goes to the KL and talks the matter with Aerys. And then they left and agreed to meet after Rhaegar spoke to the king. Aerys probably suspected/convinced that it was another ploy by Rhaegar to depose of him and told him to gtfo.



Still this does not explain why Rhaegar apparently thought that disappearing with Lyanna for months would not cause any problems.


Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is also as possible that Aerys didn't have the opportunity to make their lives miserable if indeed he was sensing that they were lying to him. Where were they until the point when they engaged in the war? We don't know. And from that moment, they were probably able men needed badly at the field.

We know the 2 of KG remained with them, but the rest resumed their positions after the kidnapping.

What I find interesting is that Aerys made Rhaegar's close friend his hand, his madness notwithstanding.

Yes, Maia, I too fear that after meeting Lyanna and being smitten with her, his Ice & Fire ideas took definitive shape.

Also, perhaps Lyanna's stay at Harrenhal was extended... :) Purposively!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My TWOIAF has not come yet but are we sure that how Lyanna meant to go to Riverrun and from where? If she was at the Vale for the time being, she might get on a ship from Gulltown and she might persuade the captain to make a pit stop at Dragonstone so that she might plead Rhaegar to use his authority and save her from the arranged marriage to Robert without causing trouble. I can also assume that they were not in love by that time. Perhaps in Dragonstone, Rhaegar promised her to do whatever he could once he goes to the KL and talks the matter with Aerys. And then they left and agreed to meet after Rhaegar spoke to the king. Aerys probably suspected/convinced that it was another ploy by Rhaegar to depose of him and told him to gtfo.

Still this does not explain why Rhaegar apparently thought that disappearing with Lyanna for months would not cause any problems.

That was originally a theory. World Book cofirms that Lyanna was near Harrenhal when Rhaegar came face to face with her. Thus, she was not traveling from Winterfell to Riverrun, as that won't bring you near Harrenhal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think this is further evidence that Brandon was misinformed about Rhaegar's location/destination possibly by littlefinger or Varys or maybe even Rhaegar himself(obviously not directly) who knew Brandon's reaction at the tourney of Harrenhall and did not want Brandon to catch up to them

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, 2 of those "half-dozen" could have been Whent and Dayne. I mean, they were close friends of Rhaegar and it would make sense if he had 2 KGs protecting him. But who were the other 4? Connington didn't know anything, Myles Mooton was at the Stony Sept, which makes it likely that he wasn't involved either. This leaves us Richard Lonmouth and 3 unknowns.

Well, he was killed at the Stony Sept months later, that doesn't mean that he had always been there.

Kudos to the people who have theorized years ago that Lyanna had been somewhere around Harrenhal when the "abduction" took place.

Well, thank you!

And Brandon was an even greater idiot than initially suspected, because it was widely known that Rhaegar didn't live in KL, nor was a frequent visitor there. In fact, had he been even moderately sensible, it is likely that he would have had Aerys's full support!

It was suggested in the pinned thread that Rhaegar's company split and whoever consisted that "half a dozen" went to KL. Brandon then may have been ignorant that they had split and simply followed.

Though, I have no idea why they would go to KL, either, instead of getting off the radar, as well.

Besides, I read elsewhere that there was indeed a faction seeking to get rid of Rhaegar - older men (lord Merryweather, among others), who wanted Viserys as king so that they could rule instead of him. So, perhaps Brandon wasn't such a fool but was intentionally misinformed, as a tool against Rhaegar.

Oh, and there is no record of polygamy being accepted as legitimate in Westeros in the last couple of millenia, bar the Iron Islands, apart from "don't ask, don't tell" situation with Aegon and his sisters. Maegor's polygamy had never been accepted and nobody else ever tried again. Nor did mere princes have authority to set their marriages aside.

There is a record of Faith being mad with Maegor but no-one claimed that his later marriages were invalid.

We also have Daemon and Rhaenyra considering polygamy a viable option and getting turned down mainly because Viserys couldn't stand Daemon.

My TWOIAF has not come yet but are we sure that how Lyanna meant to go to Riverrun and from where? If she was at the Vale for the time being, she might get on a ship from Gulltown and she might persuade the captain to make a pit stop at Dragonstone so that she might plead Rhaegar to use his authority and save her from the arranged marriage to Robert without causing trouble. I can also assume that they were not in love by that time. Perhaps in Dragonstone, Rhaegar promised her to do whatever he could once he goes to the KL and talks the matter with Aerys. And then they left and agreed to meet after Rhaegar spoke to the king. Aerys probably suspected/convinced that it was another ploy by Rhaegar to depose of him and told him to gtfo.

Still this does not explain why Rhaegar apparently thought that disappearing with Lyanna for months would not cause any problems.

She definitely wasn't in the Vale, it would have been mentioned. More likely, she was indeed at HH.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I was the first who, way way back when, argued that Lyanna must have been at Harrenhal, based on the various details. It's not 100% certain yet that she had been a guest there of the Whents, remaining there following the tourney until Brandon and the wedding party came by from the North on their way to Riverrun, but I'm pretty sure that's the case. It just fits.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also interesting is the earlier Targ-Stark marriage which was supposed to take place(yet did not) was called the pact of ice and fire - probably meaning that the song of ice and fire is about the union of those 2 houses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also interesting is the earlier Targ-Stark marriage which was supposed to take place(yet did not) was called the pact of ice and fire - probably meaning that the song of ice and fire is about the union of those 2 houses.

My mind exploded at that bit. Of course Rhaegar read about it somewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think I was the first who, way way back when, argued that Lyanna must have been at Harrenhal, based on the various details. It's not 100% certain yet that she had been a guest there of the Whents, remaining there following the tourney until Brandon and the wedding party came by from the North on their way to Riverrun, but I'm pretty sure that's the case. It just fits.

I certainly do not wish to detract from your primacy, I just think that there were more of us who had arrived at the conclusion on our own.

Do we have a timeline when her betrothal to Robert was decided? She and Ned are at Winterfell when he reminiscences on holding Mya in his arms, so is this pre-tourney or post-tourney?

Also, Ran, do you think you could temporarily pin this thread, please?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also interesting is the earlier Targ-Stark marriage which was supposed to take place(yet did not) was called the pact of ice and fire - probably meaning that the song of ice and fire is about the union of those 2 houses.

Could you provide the full quote, please? This is really mind-blowing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also interesting is the earlier Targ-Stark marriage which was supposed to take place(yet did not) was called the pact of ice and fire - probably meaning that the song of ice and fire is about the union of those 2 houses.

Yea, it is interesting, and could explain why Rhaegar may have convinced himself that his having a child with Lyanna was vital ;). Still doesn't mean that he would have thought that this child would be the Promised Prince, when Aegon already fit a couple of stipulations of the prophecy very neatly.

I kind of wonder why it didn't happen, though. Was Rhaena already married by the time Lord Cregan came south? Did he refuse Baela because of her wounds and burns? Did he fall madly in love with Black Aly Blackwood? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Also, which of Daemon's daughters did Jaecerys offer to Cregan? It seems to me that offering Baela could have had very unforunate reprecussions for him re: Daemon's and Velaryons' willingness to support his claim to the throne in the future and their devotion to Rhaenyra's claim, even. They wanted their blood on the throne, after all (finally!). And if he had offered Rhaena... that would be so tragic, as Luke might have survived had he known.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×