[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I suspect Mooton and Lonmouth, as well, but I do not see how this fits with the previous information from the books that no-one knew where to look for Rhaegar - sure, those two may not have been informed about Rhaegar's hideout, but would Aerys have believed them? And if they did know, would they have dared to defy the king?

Many thoughts here but a bit rushed atm. So I'll go with this one for now--

Gerold Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar after the Battle of the Bells. Meaning if Mooton was one of the four "extras" it could be from him that Hightower learned where to find the Prince.

A simple solution could be that the four, whomever they were, kept away from KL and the King's questions. At any rate, I've theorized that Lonmouth chose Robert during the Rebellion, so he may have been well out of it when it came to questioning.

[Barty]

Full quote - " let it be added that Lord Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his loyal support of King Aegon III... Even if it was not a royal princess marrying into his family as had been agreed in the "Pact of Ice and Fire" made when the doomed Prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon"

[Moondancer]

Full quote - " let it be added that Lord Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his loyal support of King Aegon III... Even if it was not a royal princess marrying into his family as had been agreed in the "Pact of Ice and Fire" made when the doomed Prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell uponhis dragon "

Which may or may not have laid eggs in WF. :D

[Barty]

Yea, it is interesting, and could explain why Rhaegar may have convinced himself that his having a child with Lyanna was vital ;). Still doesn't mean that he would have thought that this child would be the Promised Prince, when Aegon already fit a couple of stipulations of the prophecy very neatly.

I kind of wonder why it didn't happen, though. Was Rhaena already married by the time Lord Cregan came south? Did he refuse Baela because of her wounds and burns? Did he fall madly in love with Black Aly Blackwood? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Also, which of Daemon's daughters did Jaecerys offer to Cregan? It seems to me that offering Baela could have had very unforunate reprecussions for him re: Daemon's and Velaryons' willingness to support his claim to the throne in the future and their devotion to Rhaenyra's claim, even. They wanted their blood on the throne, after all (finally!). And if he had offered Rhaena... that would be so tragic, as Luke might have survived had he known.

Maybe the marriage was refused by the Targaryens later on - which is why Cregan fought the Dragonknight in a duel.

[Moondancer]

Maybe the marriage was refused by the Targaryens later on - which is why Cregan fought the Dragonknight in a duel.

No, I just think no one was available at the moment.

[Barty]

No, I just think no one was available at the moment.

But then why did the duel take place?? I didn't find anything in TWOIAF regarding it

[Moondancer]

But then why did the duel take place?? I didn't find anything in TWOIAF regarding it

For fun? Like Ned vs Bronze Royce

[Ygrain]

Full quote - " let it be added that Lord Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his loyal support of King Aegon III... Even if it was not a royal princess marrying into his family as had been agreed in the "Pact of Ice and Fire" made when the doomed Prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon"

Thanks! That would have been something that would have rung bells with Rhaegar.

Also, could anyone provide the bit preceding the quote which I posted in the OP? What was it that Rhaegar wasn't there to witness? It may not be of any relevance but I'd like to know the context.

[Maia]

Besides, I read elsewhere that there was indeed a faction seeking to get rid of Rhaegar - older men (lord Merryweather, among others), who wanted Viserys as king so that they could rule instead of him. So, perhaps Brandon wasn't such a fool but was intentionally misinformed, as a tool against Rhaegar.

Well, Brandon was still a fool of epic proportions, because if he had done anything other than what he did, he very likely would have had Aerys's full support. And yes, it seems that he had been used by an anti-Rhaegar faction. Which is much cooler than him having been manipulated by LF, I admit.

There is a record of Faith being mad with Maegor but no-one claimed that his later marriages were invalid.

The Faith claimed so and as far as we know after Maegor's death nobody opposed theor position on this.

We also have Daemon and Rhaenyra considering polygamy a viable option and getting turned down mainly because Viserys couldn't stand Daemon.

Huh? Wasn't it the opposite? Didn't Daemon ask for his marriage to be set aside, so that he could marry Rhaenyra?! And didn't Viserys say that Daemon couldn't marry Rhaenyra because he already had a wife?

She definitely wasn't in the Vale, it would have been mentioned. More likely, she was indeed at HH.

This seems most likely.

At any rate, I've theorized that Lonmouth chose Robert during the Rebellion, so he may have been well out of it when it came to questioning.

I am pretty sure that it is mentioned somewhere in the books that Richard Lonmouth fought and died for Rhaegar on the Trident.

[Ygrain]

For fun? Like Ned vs Bronze Royce

Is it referred to as a duel, though?

[Moondancer]

Thanks! That would have been something that would have rung bells with Rhaegar.

Also, could anyone provide the bit preceding the quote which I posted in the OP? What was it that Rhaegar wasn't there to witness? It may not be of any relevance but I'd like to know the context.

Pyromancers dabbling with the heating system of KL. (At Aerys' request.) :D

Icicles were everywhere!!

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

When and where did "love is sweet, Ned" dialogue take place?

It took place at Winterfell. The when is less certain, though I (and others) have argued that it had to be after the ToH due to the reference to Maya Stone, who would have been born not long before the False Spring (i.e. in autumn or even winter), making Ned's journeying back and forth from the Vale to Winterfell after her birth but before the tourney somewhat dubious.

Re: Harrenhal... Sure Lyanna could have been staying there, but the quote from the book (unless I'm mistaken) is "not ten leagues from Harrenhal" I interpret that to mean she was "not ten leagues from where they had met previously" Ten leagues is over thirty miles, which could place her at a number of other intriguing locations-- the Isle of Faces has been proposed (though I think that came later) as has the Inn at the Crossroads, which makes complete sense to me-- where else might you go to meet family traveling from Winterfell and Riverrun? What other location is the well known site of a "kidnaping" which sparked a war? What other location literally symbolizes life changing or fateful decisions? :)

[Ygrain]

Well, Brandon was still a fool of epic proportions, because if he had done anything other than what he did, he very likely would have had Aerys's full support. And yes, it seems that he had been used by an anti-Rhaegar faction. Which is much cooler than him having been manipulated by LF, I admit.

My money is still on Varys, though :-)

The Faith claimed so and as far as we know after Maegor's death nobody opposed theor position on this.

And we see how little say the Faith had when it came to the Targ incest.

Huh? Wasn't it the opposite? Didn't Daemon ask for his marriage to be set aside, so that he could marry Rhaenyra?! And didn't Viserys say that Daemon couldn't marry Rhaenyra because he already had a wife?

I haven't read the story myself but from I gathered, there are different accounts - in one, it is Rhaenyra pleading with Viserys, in the other Daemon.

I am pretty sure that it is mentioned somewhere in the books that Richard Lonmouth fought and died for Rhaegar on the Trident.

We don't have a direct account of anyone seeing the body, though. If Lonmouth was witnessed to take a blow and not heard of ever since, everyone would assume that he was killed and the body was maimed beyond recognition or washed away by the river.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I am pretty sure that it is mentioned somewhere in the books that Richard Lonmouth fought and died for Rhaegar on the Trident.

No it is not. He is mentioned twice in the books-- once by Barristan and once in Meera's story of Harrenhal. Neither mentions what became of him or places him at any specific location following the ToH.

Of course there are those of us who believe he "died" during the Rebellion in the same sense the Elder Brother did, making a new life for himself in the Riverlands :rolleyes:

[Ygrain]

Pyromancers dabbling with the heating system of KL. (At Aerys' request.) :D

Icicles were everywhere!!

Huh? There was a heating system in KL? Or was it just the Keep?

This heating system, isn't it where the little birds crawl and where wildfire was stashed? If it still there, the fire would probably spread rather quickly due to the chimney effect.

[LordBloodraven]

Yea, it is interesting, and could explain why Rhaegar may have convinced himself that his having a child with Lyanna was vital ;). Still doesn't mean that he would have thought that this child would be the Promised Prince, when Aegon already fit a couple of stipulations of the prophecy very neatly.

I kind of wonder why it didn't happen, though. Was Rhaena already married by the time Lord Cregan came south? Did he refuse Baela because of her wounds and burns? Did he fall madly in love with Black Aly Blackwood? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Also, which of Daemon's daughters did Jaecerys offer to Cregan? It seems to me that offering Baela could have had very unforunate reprecussions for him re: Daemon's and Velaryons' willingness to support his claim to the throne in the future and their devotion to Rhaenyra's claim, even. They wanted their blood on the throne, after all (finally!). And if he had offered Rhaena... that would be so tragic, as Luke might have survived had he known.

It could be Rhaena,and she refused him. After all, Cregan roughly handled his grandfather Lord Corlys Velaryon during the Hour of the Wolf. And I think she was the one suing for his release with help from Black Alysanne Blackwood

Which may or may not have laid eggs in WF. :D

Could it be the reasons of Jon`s dreams of the crypts? The three eggs that were laid there by Vermax during Jacaerys's visits. Three, matching Daenerys`s three eggs and Rhaena's three eggs (during her time in the Vale)

[Moondancer]

Huh? There was a heating system in KL? Or was it just the Keep?

This heating system, isn't it where the little birds crawl and where wildfire was stashed? If it still there, the fire would probably spread rather quickly due to the chimney effect.

No, no. Aerys fought the winter with the aid of pyromancers. :) For a moon's turn, the fires were burning.

[Moondancer]

It could be Rhaena,and she refused him. After all, Cregan roughly handled his grandfather Lord Corlys Velaryon during the Hour of the Wolf. And I think she was the one suing for his release with help from Black Alysanne Blackwood

Could it be the reasons of Jon`s dreams of the crypts? The three eggs that were laid there by Vermax during Jacaerys's visits. Three, matching Daenerys`s three eggs and Rhaena's three eggs (during her time in the Vale)

Rhaena was probably betrothed to a Corbray.

Heh, and people speculated so much about Vermithor... But it's Vermax that caught the historian's attention + Summer "witnessing" winged snake-like shape from the burning WF tower.

Could be, of course.

[Annara Snow]

Yea, it is interesting, and could explain why Rhaegar may have convinced himself that his having a child with Lyanna was vital ;). Still doesn't mean that he would have thought that this child would be the Promised Prince, when Aegon already fit a couple of stipulations of the prophecy very neatly.

We already knew from the HOTU vision that Rhaegar believed Aegon to be TPTWP and was looking for the third head. That's probably what he expected Lyanna's child to be. I wonder what he would have called Jon and if he would have been surprised that it was a boy, rather than a daughter to be named Visenya.

[Ran]

Re: Harrenhal,

I've speculation from... lets see, this is early 2002 ... explaining just why I think Lyanna was at Harrenhal. The "close to" Harrenhal strikes me as not doing much to explain why Lyanna was there and why she met Rhaegar there, but it becomes easier to see why if you follow the line of reasoning here:

My take (which is based on disparate sources and judicious use of a ruler on the map to guesstimate travel times) is that the tourney happens, then the duel, and then Brandon and Benjen _returns to the North_. From there he meets up with his father, his father's guard, and the train of wedding guests (including Ethan Glover). Then they go (less poor Benjen) to White Harbor and the lot of them take ship to the Vale, where they meet Jon, Eddard, and Robert as well as yet more wedding guests (which explains Arryn's nephew and Kyle Royce being with Brandon).

And then Brandon, eager to go on while his father and the others take a more leisurely pace, decides to ride into the Riverlands with his few companions to meet Lyanna, whom I have speculated had remained at Harrenhal after the tourney to keep the Fair Maid company or whatever (the Whents were a very great household at this time, so there would be nothing inappropriate with Lyanna staying as a guest for an extended period). Catelyn does tell us he was on the way when he heard the news and headed to King's Landing. This fits very well with his having gone to Harrenhal to see his sister and wait for the others ... and learning that she was gone, stolen away by Rhaegar Targaryen.

And, moreover, there is all indication that Rickard and Ned and so on were nowhere near to Brandon -- no apparent attempt was made to catch him before he got to King's Landing, and indeed word was sent to the fathers of all the companions to come to KL to speak for their sons. This suggests that they were not just a few hours behind, but more like several days behind, to me -- say, making their way down the kingsroad when Brandon was already on the road to the Red Keep.

I think the text basically confirms the broad outline of this. Lyanna stayed in the riverlands -- and probably with the Whents -- with the idea that they'd meet up with her when the wedding party got down there, and then Brandon and his buddies rode ahead of said party to hang out with Lyanna while the train slowly made its way there... only for Brandon to find Lyanna gone, and word that Rhaegar had gone off with her under unclear circumstances. He races to King's Landing, word is sent to the Tullys (where Lord Hoster curses Brandon's foolishness), and Rickard, Ned, etc. end up having to hold up and try to figure what to do ... maybe in the Vale, who knows.