[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags

[The Twinslayer]

This is interesting. After the Trident:

He sent his pregnant queen, Rhaella, and his younger son and new heir, Viserys, away to Dragonstone, but Princess Elia was forced to remain in King's Landing with Rhaegar's children as a hostage against Dorne.

This means that with Rhaegar dead, Aerys' heir was his next son (Viserys) and not his grandson by Rhaegar.

This is consistent with the precedent set at the Great Council of 233 that selected Maekar's younger son, Egg, over Maekar's grandson, the unnamed son of Aerion Brightflame.

It also, probably, was automatic. Per the Rogue Prince, if Aerys wanted to name a son of Rhaegar as his heir, he would have had to overturn the prior precedent. That is because, when Viserys I named Rhaenyra his heir, he had to disregard the prior precedents.

Disregarding the precedents set by King Jaehaerys in 92 and the Great Council in 101, King Viserys I declared his daughter Rhaenyra to be his rightful heir, and named her Princess of Dragonstone.

Which is bad news for the theory that Hightower, Dayne and Whent were at the Tower of Joy to guard a new born Targaryen king, since Jon would not come before Viserys in the line of succession.

[BearQueen87]

Full quote - " let it be added that Lord Cregan Stark reaped many rewards for his loyal support of King Aegon III... Even if it was not a royal princess marrying into his family as had been agreed in the "Pact of Ice and Fire" made when the doomed Prince Jacaerys Velaryon had flown to Winterfell upon his dragon"

Bells just went off in my head

Bookish Rhaegar would have known about this too as well as recent Targaryen history of marriages not being annulled (J2 and his sister)

[sj4iy]

This is interesting. After the Trident:

This means that with Rhaegar dead, Aerys' heir was his next son (Viserys) and not his grandson by Rhaegar.

This is consistent with the precedent set at the Great Council of 233 that selected Maekar's younger son, Egg, over Maekar's grandson, the unnamed son of Aerion Brightflame.

It also, probably, was automatic. Per the Rogue Prince, if Aerys wanted to name a son of Rhaegar as his heir, he would have had to overturn the prior precedent. That is because, when Viserys I named Rhaenyra his heir, he had to disregard the prior precedents.

Disregarding the precedents set by King Jaehaerys in 92 and the Great Council in 101, King Viserys I declared his daughter Rhaenyra to be his rightful heir, and named her Princess of Dragonstone.

Which is bad news for the theory that Hightower, Dayne and Whent were at the Tower of Joy to guard a new born Targaryen king, since Jon would not come before Viserys in the line of succession.

How would Hightower, Dayne and Whent know about what Aerys did if they were stuck at the ToJ?

[BearQueen87]

Which is bad news for the theory that Hightower, Dayne and Whent were at the Tower of Joy to guard a new born Targaryen king, since Jon would not come before Viserys in the line of succession.

I don't think H, D and W had any way of knowing what Aerys was up to.

[The Twinslayer]

How would Hightower, Dayne and Whent know about what Aerys did if they were stuck at the ToJ?

They would have known that Viserys automatically became the heir, ahead of Rhaegar's kids, the minute Rhaegar died. Because if Aerys wanted Rhaegar's son to precede Viserys, Aerys would have had to overrule the precedent set by the Great Council of 233.

Now we know that Aerys did not overrule that precedent and that Viserys was his heir.

[Mithras]

They would have known that Viserys automatically became the heir, ahead of Rhaegar's kids, the minute Rhaegar died. Because if Aerys wanted Rhaegar's son to precede Viserys, Aerys would have had to overrule the precedent set by the Great Council of 233.

Now we know that Aerys did not overrule that precedent and that Viserys was his heir.

Like Hightowers never messed with precedents or even council decisions before?

[sj4iy]

They would have known that Viserys automatically became the heir, ahead of Rhaegar's kids, the minute Rhaegar died. Because if Aerys wanted Rhaegar's son to precede Viserys, Aerys would have had to overrule the precedent set by the Great Council of 233.

Now we know that Aerys did not overrule that precedent and that Viserys was his heir.

...no, they wouldn't. There's no WAY that they would 'automatically know' unless it was widely disseminated knowledge. When Rhaegar left to fight at the Trident, he was still Aerys' heir.

[Ygrain]

Is it just me or does anyone else find Rhaegar look like Chris Hemsworth, only leaner and with silver hair?

It's strange that there's been no record of Stark-Targaryen marriage before. If Rhaegar and Lyanna married, I wonder how it will impact Jon as the first product of ice and fire.

/Ygrain approves/ :drool: Is the picture linked somewhere?

In relation to polygamy, the following passage strickes me as quite peculiar:

He definitely wouldn't be the first Targ thinking that he could pull the same trick.

He appears more stern and masculine than I imagined him.

I always pictured him manly. The guy who equalled Arthur Dayne in swordfight and spoke with iron tones in his voice wouldn't look like a pansy.

So, does anyone else find it funny that the "narrator" is so dismissive of Lyanna's beauty in a book meant for Robert?

Sour grapes consolation, I guess :-)

This is consistent with the precedent set at the Great Council of 233 that selected Maekar's younger son, Egg, over Maekar's grandson, the unnamed son of Aerion Brightflame.

It also, probably, was automatic. Per the Rogue Prince, if Aerys wanted to name a son of Rhaegar as his heir, he would have had to overturn the prior precedent. That is because, when Viserys I named Rhaenyra his heir, he had to disregard the prior precedents.

Which is bad news for the theory that Hightower, Dayne and Whent were at the Tower of Joy to guard a new born Targaryen king, since Jon would not come before Viserys in the line of succession.

They would have known that Viserys automatically became the heir, ahead of Rhaegar's kids, the minute Rhaegar died. Because if Aerys wanted Rhaegar's son to precede Viserys, Aerys would have had to overrule the precedent set by the Great Council of 233.

Now we know that Aerys did not overrule that precedent and that Viserys was his heir.

A slight problem, Twinslayer: the Great Council did NOT set a general precedent. It was a one-time, out of the usual order of things event which stood above a king's decision. If Aerys wanted to invalidate Aegon's claim, he would have had to call a Great Council, as well.

Besides, we don't even know if Aerys truly proclaimed Viserys his new heir, or if it's a conclusion the maester arrived at on the basis of Viserys being sent to safety while Aegon was kept at KL as if he didn't matter.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

My take on the thing is what I've already mentioned in the original RLJ.

Rhaegar was definitely "playing the got", but he was very discreet about it, and with reason. What the Maester knows is what many seemed to know about it, but they're missing some facts we know (like RLJ). I do believe he's right saying that Rhaegar left with half a dozen men, and they had a purpose at going to the Riverlands, being that purpose something political. Maybe, they needed a place away from Varys' little birds and Aerys' men. I suppose those men included the mentioned men in the book as R's closest confidants and conspirators: Arthur, Whent, Lewyn, Lonmouth, Jon and Mooton (what a coincidence! it makes six!). Of course, this the Maester doesn't know. Considering that this leaded to R meeting Lyanna, he believes this is the reason and he's assuming some stuff.

At some point, the group divided and while Lewyn, L, JC and M returned to KL or wherever they were sent, R, who I believe was going to Dorne, stayed along with Arthur and Whent, and then, he met Lyanna and the both together parted to ToJ. This fits with what the app saying, that only Arthur and Oswell were involved in the "kidnapping". And as Ygrain pointed out, Brandon assumed Rhaegar was returning to KL with the rest of the group as well, and that's why he went there, despite being known that he actually lived in Dragonstone.

So, does anyone else find it funny that the "narrator" is so dismissive of Lyanna's beauty in a book meant for Robert?

Maybe, but also, Elia was already a grown woman while Lyanna was probably more of a childish beauty.

Oh, one thing concerning Mooton: he was killed by Robert himself. A battle chance, or revenge for his part in taking Lyanna or generally being close to Rhaegar?

I think it's the three options. They battled and his (alleged) involvement in the kidnapping and his closeness to Rhaegar is what made Robert seeing red and kill him.

Lyanna could have been with the Whent relations of her in-laws.

Could be. Apparently, Rhaegar had already trusted in the Whents, maybe they gather there, or spent the night there at some point, when Lyanna was there.

I suspect Mooton and Lonmouth, as well, but I do not see how this fits with the previous information from the books that no-one knew where to look for Rhaegar - sure, those two may not have been informed about Rhaegar's hideout, but would Aerys have believed them? And if they did know, would they have dared to defy the king?

Well, 2 of those "half-dozen" could have been Whent and Dayne. I mean, they were close friends of Rhaegar and it would make sense if he had 2 KGs protecting him. But who were the other 4? Connington didn't know anything, Myles Mooton was at the Stony Sept, which makes it likely that he wasn't involved either. This leaves us Richard Lonmouth and 3 unknowns.

Maybe they really didn't know where Rhaegar went after the group divided. There is a chance Rhaegar didn't inform them for their own safety. Or, they swore to never tell. After all, those who didn't know where Aerys and his men. That doesn't mean Rhaegar wasn't sending regular messages to KL or DS, informing of whatever he was doing.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

btw,

"on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the Riverlands, not ten leagues from Harrenhal"

If my english doesn't fail to me, it means a place relatively close to the Riverlands, right? Do we know where Darry is? This is wiki info:

"The location of Castle Darry has not been shown by canon published maps. However, its approximate coordinates can be deduced from the text: it is repeated several times that it is close to Harrenhal".

I wonder if Rhaegar's group chose Castle Darry to reunite, and then, they parted to Harrenhal. But the most important would be that could place Jonotor Darry as another of the conspirators. If so, looks like the KG was severely involved, except Barristan and Jaime (the ones who lived, of course...!)

[Moondancer]

Ygrain,

Rhaegar spoke in iron voice - can you remind me where's that description?

[UnmaskedLurker]

This is interesting. After the Trident:

This means that with Rhaegar dead, Aerys' heir was his next son (Viserys) and not his grandson by Rhaegar.

This is consistent with the precedent set at the Great Council of 233 that selected Maekar's younger son, Egg, over Maekar's grandson, the unnamed son of Aerion Brightflame.

It also, probably, was automatic. Per the Rogue Prince, if Aerys wanted to name a son of Rhaegar as his heir, he would have had to overturn the prior precedent. That is because, when Viserys I named Rhaenyra his heir, he had to disregard the prior precedents.

Which is bad news for the theory that Hightower, Dayne and Whent were at the Tower of Joy to guard a new born Targaryen king, since Jon would not come before Viserys in the line of succession.

I believe you are 100% mistaken. There is no statement that the GC of 233 set a new precedent going forward. The GC did not say that the rules for the order of succession from then on would be changed. Rather, the GC stated that for that particular circumstance, the kingdom needed an adult king to rule, and so the passed over Arion's son, taking that one individual out of the line of succession. That action is completely different than what you are suggesting--that they changed the rules going forward. They only passed over one individual for one circumstance--and stated why they did so, which was not a statement of changing the general rules.

The statement that Viserys was the new heir after Rhaegar's death suggests that Aerys named Viserys as heir--not that becoming heir would have been automatic under GC of 233. Under the normal rules, Aegon would have been heir, but I suspect that Viserys did not trust Elia (who likely would have been regent if Aerys died while Aegon was still young) or Dorne. But news of this appointment likely would not have reached the KG at ToJ, which is why they treated Jon as King rather than Viserys.

[Mithras]

Actually, according to the Old Bear, the Great Council of 233 didnot want Aerion's son on the basis that "no one would like to see his tainted blood" on the IT. According to Barristan, Viserys was already showing the "taint" and I do not doubt that other KG saw that too. Hence, by dismissing the "tainted" Viserys for the sake of Rhaegar's children, the KG did indeed act according to the decision of 233.

[Ygrain]

Ygrain,

Rhaegar spoke in iron voice - can you remind me where's that description?

I thought it was in Jaime's weirwood dream but I was mistaken and don't have the time to look it up now, I'm afraid. I think it is some passage where Rhaegar is referred to as Prince of Dragonstone.

[sj4iy]

I thought it was in Jaime's weirwood dream but I was mistaken and don't have the time to look it up now, I'm afraid. I think it is some passage where Rhaegar is referred to as Prince of Dragonstone.

Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.

[Ygritte]

So, does anyone else find it funny that the "narrator" is so dismissive of Lyanna's beauty in a book meant for Robert?

Probably the author figured Robert would never bother to read it, and didn't want to anger Cersei.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Ygrain,

Rhaegar spoke in iron voice - can you remind me where's that description?

Jaime I in Feast, when he's looking for Tyrion next to the Dragon skulls"

"Y a Jaime le había parecido reconocer aquella voz, el tono férreo

que había tenido la voz de Rhaegar, príncipe de Rocadragón".

bold means Iron Tone, it's just that I don't have the english version right now.

[Ygrain]

Thanks, JonCon!

I know you, Kingslayer, the beast seemed to be saying. I have been here all the time, waiting for you to come to me. And it seemed to Jaime that he knew that voice, the iron tones that had once belonged to Rhaegar, Prince of Dragonstone.

[Moondancer]

Thanks, guys. :love:

[sj4iy]

So, someone who has the book- is there a picture in there with Hyrkoon holding Lightbringer?