[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags

[UnmaskedLurker]

LV--So was Rhaegar just suicidal? I have read your posts and tried to read them carefully, and I still have no idea what you think Rhaegar thought he was doing or planning or intending. You do a good job of shooting down what seems to be any plausible alternative, but we know (I think we know) he ran off with Lyanna and had a baby with her. He must have had some idea of what was going to happen down the road. Do you have any idea what you think was going on? I think I have asked you a question like this before, and I think you hedged (IIRC). But have you come to any sort of theory on what you think Rhaegar intended to do when he ran off with Lyanna?

[sj4iy]

Ned also thinks that should the Lannisters create troubles, Robert will smash them as he did Rhaegar. Smashing the Lannisters would be a good thing, so by extension, the fact that Robert smashed Rhaegar was also one. Plus, honest Ned says that Robert avenged Lyanna by killing Rhaegar, instead of simply saying, "You killed him".

Not saying that Ned hated his guts but making him Rhaegar number one fan simply because he didn't think Rhaegar visited brothels is really stretching it.

That's not what I said. I was responding directly to a statement that said "they were mortal enemies". I gave three different examples of why this isn't true. The Starks don't hold the Targaryens in contempt at all. We see that Dany holds the STARKS in contempt, but it's most definitely not the other way around.

[Lord Varys]

I simply don't understand Rhaegar in regards to his political agenda or his long-term plans.

[ARYa_Nym]

And for being such 'mortal enemies', Ned seems to think very well of Rhaegar. He also pleads with Robert to spare Dany, even resigning over it. Robb, Jon and Bran all dream of being great warriors like their Targaryen heroes. For such 'mortal enemies', the Starks don't seem to hold many grudges against the Targaryens, now do they?

I wouldn't say that. Jon was disappointed when he met Robert because Ned had kept boasting about Robert killing Rhaegar while he was growing up and Robert didn't live up to the great stories he heard about him: a demon on the Trident...a giant amongst princes.

All we have is that he doesn't think he would be in brothels which I don't take that to amount to he thinks highly of him just that he wouldn't do that specific thing.

[sj4iy]

I simply don't understand Rhaegar in regards to his political agenda or his long-term plans.

I don't think we will unless we get something that actually tells us what he was thinking.

[sj4iy]

I wouldn't say that. Jon was disappointed when he met Robert because Ned had kept boasting about Robert killing Rhaegar while he was growing up and Robert didn't live up to the great stories he heard about him: a demon on the Trident...a giant amongst princes.

All we have is that he doesn't think he would be in brothels which I don't take that to amount to he thinks highly of him just that he wouldn't do that specific thing.

He thinks better of a man whose actions led to the death of most of his immediate family over a man who was his best friend his entire life.

That doesn't sound like 'mortal enemies' to me.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I'm sure you guys already brought this up. But Maegor married in secret to his sister (?) with Queen Rhaenys presiding over since no one in the clergy would preform the ceremony. SO obviously secret weddings are a 'thing', and they can be accepted as legit after the fact.

[ARYa_Nym]

He thinks better of a man whose actions led to the death of most of his immediate family over a man who was his best friend his entire life.

That doesn't sound like 'mortal enemies' to me.

He just thinks that Rhaegar wouldn't be in brothels. As an example, Cat thinks Edmure has a dozen bastards but she has no such thoughts about Jamie. Does that mean she thinks more highly of Jamie than Edmure? No..

If Ned hero worshiped anyone in his life it was Robert. That one comment that compares their behavior does not change that. B/w the two the answer of who did he idolize it's not Rhaegar.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I simply don't understand Rhaegar in regards to his political agenda or his long-term plans.

That is a fair admission. Ignoring for a moment that this is fiction and so Rhaegar never actually existed (sorry for the heresy), consider the following: (i) people often have inflated views of their ability to persuade people to their way of thinking; (ii) there are usually facts that an insider (Rhaegar) would know that an outsider (the readers) would not know; (iii) even smart people make poor judgments from time to time, particularly when their ego is overly involved; and (iv) maybe Rhegar really did know how certain Lords would react and his confidence in his ability to call a council and get his way was not naive. I admit that we don't know--but that is the point, we cannot know because we don't have all the relevant information. But that also means we cannot know that Rhaegar did not have a plan or that his plan was doomed. I think we can guess, however, that Rhaegar thought he had a plan. We just won't know what that plan was until GRRM lets us know.

I'm sure you guys already brought this up. But Maegor married in secret to his sister (?) with Queen Rhaenys presiding over since no one in the clergy would preform the ceremony. SO obviously secret weddings are a 'thing', and they can be accepted as legit after the fact.

Yes, it was discussed in connection with the son of Egg who ran off and married his sister in secret and got away with it--even though the Lords were not happy because each was promised to a major house.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Yes, it was discussed in connection with the son of Egg who ran off and married his sister in secret and got away with it--even though the Lords were not happy because each was promised to a major house.

So does anyone still believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were in fact not married over the year or so they were holed up together?

Because that really would no longer make sense, I mean these two are not mentally handicapped. There is no reason under the sun that they would not be married before Jon was born.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

So does anyone still believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were in fact not married over the year or so they were holed up together?

o/

[UnmaskedLurker]

o/

What does "o/" mean?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

What does "o/" mean?

Me, raising my hand.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Me, raising my hand.

Care to elaborate?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

^I'm not 100% convinced they got married.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

^I'm not 100% convinced they got married.

Them not being married makes no sense IMO.

[RumHam]

Yeah I could go either way on them being married. Before reading the worldbook I was leaning towards them being married. After learning that Maegor was the last Targaryen to practice polygamy it seems a lot less likely. If they did wed it was probably in the northern fashion.

[BearQueen87]

So does anyone still believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were in fact not married over the year or so they were holed up together?

Because that really would no longer make sense, I mean these two are not mentally handicapped. There is no reason under the sun that they would not be married before Jon was born.

Apparently quite a number of people. The issue is that we're all reading the "evidence" differently but none of us are going to be reading it the way GRRM intended Rhaegar to read it/think about it.

Rhaegar could have all this history in his head that Lord Varys points to and think "this will never work. Better to just run away with Lyanna and not marry and go from there"

OR

Rhaegar could have all this history in his head that Lord Varys points to and think "this could work if I did XYZ and then 123" which seems to align with how politically savvy the Lannister-biased Maester is making him out to be (which I think is strange that Ran/Linda/GRRM wrote the obviously pro-Lannister Maester as being this "good" to Rhaegar)

And this is where i go back to Ned, the fever dream, his thoughts on Rhaegar and what we've learned about Rhaegar in books 1-5. And my conclusion is still that yes, they were married.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Is there anything written...or clue that Rhaegar could have (or did) meet Lyanna prior to the Tournament? I don't recall any...but I've only completed one complete read through & am not all the way through TWoIaF yet.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Is there anything written...or clue that Rhaegar could have (or did) meet Lyanna prior to the Tournament? I don't recall any...but I've only completed one complete read through & am not all the way through TWoIaF yet.

If the Starks had come to the tourney at Lannisport they may have met? although Rhaegar was only 8 at the time, so doubtful.