[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags

[sj4iy]

He just thinks that Rhaegar wouldn't be in brothels. As an example, Cat thinks Edmure has a dozen bastards but she has no such thoughts about Jamie. Does that mean she thinks more highly of Jamie than Edmure? No..

If Ned hero worshiped anyone in his life it was Robert. That one comment that compares their behavior does not change that. B/w the two the answer of who did he idolize it's not Rhaegar.

...please read the original context of what I said. I was directly responding to someone who said the Starks and Targaryens became mortal enemies through Rhaegar's actions.

I pointed out that they weren't.

I'm ready to move on already.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Them not being married makes no sense IMO.

I agree they had fully intentions to get married, not for honour but for love. That doesn't mean they actually did it.

Personally, I would like Jon to remain a bastard. Narratively, it makes more sense to me and I think it fits more his eventual history. If they got married, fine. If they didn't, fine too. It's not a big thing for me. In fact, I would want him to be remembered as Jon Targaryen, the Bastard King and being a kick ass ruler despite his origins.

[sj4iy]

So does anyone still believe Rhaegar and Lyanna were in fact not married over the year or so they were holed up together?

Because that really would no longer make sense, I mean these two are not mentally handicapped. There is no reason under the sun that they would not be married before Jon was born.

I won't discount the possibility, but I think it doesn't make sense considering how long they were hidden, and the fact that Jon clearly couldn't have been conceived right away. They were right next to the Isle of Faces, as well. Also, given what we know about Lyanna not wanting Robert to run around on her, I can't imagine that she would agree to be the mistress of Rhaegar.

So I would say 80% - married, 20% - not married.

[Gala]

Hi there!!! I've finally read all the threads and posts!!

I agree with this:

Maegor began the trouble, Aenys tried to pacify the High Septon with Maegor's exile and the appointment of Septon Murmison as Hand, but that did not really work. Later Aenys miscalculated the Faith's true view on incest, and the amount of influence the High Septon had over the smallfolk, the pious lords, and the Realm.

Aenys was loved by the commons, but they did not like incest.

Back to topic:

Rhaegar falling in love with Lyanna is the core of the whole mystery, I think. Prophecy played a certain role, sure but just imagine Rhaegar as his mother's son, a dutiful son who always did what the world, the family, and destiny expected of him. And then, when he was plotting to topple his father, and expecting/hoping that his son would be the One that was expected, not he himself, he fell in love at Harrenhal. Really fell in love. And Lyanna, possibly, too.

When Aegon was born, Elia barren, and the prophecy finally - in Rhaegar's mind - fulfilled, he made the first and only rash decision in his life - just like Doran Martell when he married Mellario - and it backfired. With Elia barren, destiny sort of invited (or asked) Rhaegar to follow his heart and take Lyanna. And that he did.

I really don't see that policy played a role in that at all. And prophecy also did not determine a match with Lyanna. That was love - at least on his part. Rhaegar could only have believed that Aegon was the promised prince for a very short amount of time after his birth in December/January. There is little reason to assume that a day after 'He has a song' scene he suddenly decided that his child with Lyanna would be the real promised prince. Perhaps later something happened that changed his view, but that would have been on the road, not on Dragonstone.

Addendum:

Aerys caring about the Knight of the Laughing Tree after Harrenhal does not fit his changeable nature at all. The core of his madness is change, he has many mistresses and notions, but he forgets about that in days or weeks. Upon his return to KL he would have learned that Jaime had been there all the time, and that would have settled the issue. That Knight was just some guy.

Whether Rhaegar was plotting to get rid of his father or not, at any case, politically the abduction was incredibly stupid thing to do, as a lot of people have already stated: Martells, Baratheons and Starks (at least, if this plot wasn't the same as Helen of Troy, whose abduction historically was only a legitimate reason to start a war) would be pissed. I know, I know...we can speculate that Elia was into that plan, but we are not sure, really. Neither Brandon, nor Ned knew nothing obviously about any kind of arrangements to break Lyanna and Robert's betrothal.

Anyway...I agree, strongly, that Rhaegar, being dutiful bookish good boy all his life, for the first time in his life felt something real, he (sort of) found a chance to follow his heart, whether he was thinking of the prophecy or not, he fell in love and that was it, eventually, that destroyed him.

BTW, I've always seen a parallel between Brandon Stark and Oberyn Martell, they clearly both loved their sisters dearly and if I remember it right, Doran actually stropped Oberyn from doing exactly the same thing Brandon did. It's a pity Ned was younger, he probably would stop Brandon too, if he was near.

On the subject of Martells, does this precious new book (I do not have it yet, I'm waiting :drool: ) has any clue on the subject of Martell's reactions to Rhaegar's actions? Because I've been wondering for a long time why Martells never blamed him or Starks for that matter. There isn't any mentioning of them hating Ned Stark, for example. None, whatsoever. On the other hand, Starks were the only family, except of course Targs and Elia, who suffered most, would it be the reason?

[BearQueen87]

I agree they had fully intentions to get married, not for honour but for love. That doesn't mean they actually did it.

Personally, I would like Jon to remain a bastard. Narratively, it makes more sense to me and I think it fits more his eventual history. If they got married, fine. If they didn't, fine too. It's not a big thing for me. In fact, I would want him to be remembered as Jon Targaryen, the Bastard King and being a kick ass ruler despite his origins.

My question to you is why wouldn't they do it if they had intended to? What stopped them?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

My question to you is why wouldn't they do it if they had intended to? What stopped them?

Time? A war happening? Rhaegar expecting to be King and make his own rules?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Apparently quite a number of people. The issue is that we're all reading the "evidence" differently but none of us are going to be reading it the way GRRM intended Rhaegar to read it/think about it.

Rhaegar could have all this history in his head that Lord Varys points to and think "this will never work. Better to just run away with Lyanna and not marry and go from there"

OR

Rhaegar could have all this history in his head that Lord Varys points to and think "this could work if I did XYZ and then 123" which seems to align with how politically savvy the Lannister-biased Maester is making him out to be (which I think is strange that Ran/Linda/GRRM wrote the obviously pro-Lannister Maester as being this "good" to Rhaegar)

And this is where i go back to Ned, the fever dream, his thoughts on Rhaegar and what we've learned about Rhaegar in books 1-5. And my conclusion is still that yes, they were married.

To me, there is just no reason for Rhaegar to not at least try and make this legit. He wouldnt want his son to be a bastard, that's the main thing. Why would the Heir to the IT not want his son to be legit?

Even if he couldnt get many behind him, or if he couldnt get the high septon, might as well have a small ceremony just to try and cover his bases. I mean this would be a very small effort on his part to make the situation right in the least. The whole marriage would take 1 hour tops, and they were alone together for so long, the subject must have come up in between all the fornication.

Here is a question, can anyone provide a good reason that Rhaegar would NOT want to make at least this small effort (marriage to Lyanna) to un-bastardize his upcoming child?

[BearQueen87]

Time? A war happening? Rhaegar expecting to be King and make his own rules?

1. They would have time as soon as they decided to go off together. And given that they're right there next to the Isle of Faces, perfect place for at least a norther wedding.

2. But the War didn't happen right away. There was a nice chunk of time in between Lyanna and Rhaegar running off and the banners being called.

3. Well, there is no "rule" against polygamy to begin with, right? So he doesn't need to make up a rule. He needs support, which might be difficult but given how this Maester describes him. Rhaegar seems very capable of at least thinking he could persuade men to his side.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

1. They would have time as soon as they decided to go off together. And given that they're right there next to the Isle of Faces, perfect place for at least a norther wedding.

2. But the War didn't happen right away. There was a nice chunk of time in between Lyanna and Rhaegar running off and the banners being called.

3. Well, there is no "rule" against polygamy to begin with, right? So he doesn't need to make up a rule. He needs support, which might be difficult but given how this Maester describes him. Rhaegar seems very capable of at least thinking he could persuade men to his side.

There is no rule against polygamy, but the court was divided and Rhaegar had a lot of opposition to begin with. To me, he didn't look like the kind of guy who purposely would believe "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission".

[BearQueen87]

There is no rule against polygamy, but the court was divided and Rhaegar had a lot of opposition to begin with. To me, he didn't look like the kind of guy who purposely would believe "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission".

And yet he's planning to get the High Lords on his side (and maybe the KG) in an effort to overthrow his Father. I don't think he's one for permission either.

[sj4iy]

Time?

They disappeared for a looooong time, and Jon wasn't conceived until months later (considering he and Robb are about the same age). How would they not have the time to get married?

A war happening?

A war which didn't happen right away. And one in which Rhaegar did not fight until well into it.

Rhaegar expecting to be King and make his own rules?

Well, he was the crown prince and he had very clearly attempted to depose his insane father once already.

There is no rule against polygamy, but the court was divided and Rhaegar had a lot of opposition to begin with. To me, he didn't look like the kind of guy who purposely would believe "it's better to ask forgiveness than permission".

Who opposed Rhaegar at the time he left with Lyanna?

[RumHam]

It's possible there is a rule against polygamy. Jaehaerys was the one who united the Seven Kingdoms (save Dorne) under a unified code of law. (Edit: and struck a deal with the Faith around that same time.) This is also right after the last known instance of Targaryen polygamy. No lord in the Seven Kingdoms that we know of has taken a second wife since, even in the North. (Saltwives notwithstanding) There's probably a reason.

[BearQueen87]

It's possible there is a rule against polygamy. Jaehaerys was the one who united the Seven Kingdoms (save Dorne) under a unified code of law. (Edit: and struck a deal with the Faith around that same time.) This is also right after the last known instance of Targaryen polygamy. No lord in the Seven Kingdoms that we know of has taken a second wife since, even in the North. (Saltwives notwithstanding) There's probably a reason.

And that reason could be cultural instead of legal.

[sj4iy]

It's possible there is a rule against polygamy. Jaehaerys was the one who united the Seven Kingdoms (save Dorne) under a unified code of law. (Edit: and struck a deal with the Faith around that same time.) This is also right after the last known instance of Targaryen polygamy. No lord in the Seven Kingdoms that we know of has taken a second wife since, even in the North. (Saltwives notwithstanding) There's probably a reason.

Martin said that polygamy wasn't illegal.

[RumHam]

And that reason could be cultural instead of legal.

Indeed. I'm just suggesting the possibility. It's not like we have a list of Westerosi laws.

[RumHam]

Martin said that polygamy wasn't illegal.

When?

Edit: if you're referring to the "There may have been other instances after Maegor, I'll have to check my notes" SSM, that is not the same thing at all.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yeah I could go either way on them being married. Before reading the worldbook I was leaning towards them being married. After learning that Maegor was the last Targaryen to practice polygamy it seems a lot less likely. If they did wed it was probably in the northern fashion.

I agree that the evidence in favor of marriage is overwhelming. What I still don't understand from people who do not think they got married is why they think it makes more sense. Play it out. Which would upset the realm more, Rhaegar impregnates Robert's fiance--a daughter of a high lord--and keeps her as a mistress and raises their child as the third head of the dragon OR Rhaegar marries her using Old Gods/bought-off Septon/Whatever. Either way, there are going to be complaints--but are the complaints less if they don't get married?

The argument against marriage seems to be that polygamy is no longer practiced in Westeros. Well, neither is keeping the daughter of a high lord as your mistress and raising her child as your own. That is not done in Westeros either. Skepticism against just running with the pack on a theory is a good instinct, but the evidence in favor of marriage is so strong. I would think it seems much more likely than not to most people. There is the actions of the KG in staying with Jon rather than sending at least one KG to Viserys. And, one of my favorite arguments, if Jon is TPTWP, he must be the Prince that was promised and not the Bastard that was promised. How is them not getting married a more likely scenario?

[BearQueen87]

Also, just to point out, making something illegal doesn't mean

1) that it doesn't happen (murder is illegal but it's quite frequent. Or, if you want something less extreme, illegal trafficking of drugs) and

2) that the law cannot be overturned by the New King (Rhaegar) in order to make what he did legal in the eyes of his law.

Culture is a different matter. That is a harder mountain to climb and I don't know how Rhaegar would have scaled it. But if he managed to appease the angry lords politically then their cultural squeamishes go out the proverbial window.

[BearQueen87]

Indeed. I'm just suggesting the possibility. It's not like we have a list of Westerosi laws.

Sadly. :(

[sj4iy]

When?

Edit: if you're referring to the "There may have been other instances after Maegor, I'll have to check my notes" SSM, that is not the same thing at all.

The point still stands- polygamy may be frowned upon, but it wasn't illegal. Having dragons obviously would have helped, but if Rhaegar felt he could convince enough people to accept it, then he could do it.