[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Not that it matters, but Maegor didn't marry his sister, but the daughter of the Lord of Harrenhal (Alys). It was Visenya who presided over the ceremony :) Rhaenys had been dead for quite some time at that point.

Lol thanx, I knew I was getting some of that wrong from memory. I tried to take in as much as I could last night, but felt too stupid to try and bring the book to work with me today.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Apparently quite a number of people. The issue is that we're all reading the "evidence" differently but none of us are going to be reading it the way GRRM intended Rhaegar to read it/think about it.

Rhaegar could have all this history in his head that Lord Varys points to and think "this will never work. Better to just run away with Lyanna and not marry and go from there"

OR

Rhaegar could have all this history in his head that Lord Varys points to and think "this could work if I did XYZ and then 123" which seems to align with how politically savvy the Lannister-biased Maester is making him out to be (which I think is strange that Ran/Linda/GRRM wrote the obviously pro-Lannister Maester as being this "good" to Rhaegar)

And this is where i go back to Ned, the fever dream, his thoughts on Rhaegar and what we've learned about Rhaegar in books 1-5. And my conclusion is still that yes, they were married.

I agree with the bolded. TWOIAF would have been an excellent opportunity to corroborate the initial perspective that we receive about Rhaegar from Robert, yet it does not do that. What we are seeing consistently across canon and now this extracanonical source is that it's pretty difficult to smear Rhaegar beyond his folly when it came to Lyanna Stark. I am certain Yandel would have mentioned any signs of creeping madness, as this would have corroborated Robert's "crazed rapist" portrait of the man he usurped.

And no one has taken up the context problem. If it was ambiguous before, what seems to be clear is that Rhaegar wasn't operating in a vacuum. Either madness struck several key and respected figures in that generation (maybe it's possible), or we're still missing critical information.

The key piece of information that we're now missing is "Why did Rhaegar think he could get away with marrying Lyanna Stark?" It is evidently more significant than "he was going to be King so he could do whatever he wanted."

[RumHam]

This sounds to me that if there was some kind of anti-polygamy "law", this, like any other regulation that passes for law in Westeros, can be negated with the right kind of coercion, and as such, it's not really prohibited by law then.

I absolutely agree this is the case. I mean we see people literally getting away with murder all the time.

[BearQueen87]

I absolutely agree this is the case. I mean we see people literally getting away with murder all the time.

So then we're back to Rhaegar knowing all this and thinking that he could get away with if his plan (whatever the hell it actually was) works and if he has confidence in his plan (as evidenced by his final moment with Jaime) then I don't see why he wouldn't marry Lyanna.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

RumHam, in the last post of the previous page.. It's Aegon IV, not Aegon V :p

[UnmaskedLurker]

I know it's not a popular topic, but I do still feel that Rhaegar's ideas about prophesied events might be part of his "plan." I also am aware that this is a sort of dead-end route, since we have zero information about the contents of whatever prophecies Rhaegar knew about, so I apologize for pointing in this direction, and for raising questions rather than providing answers. But to my mind it may well be that the production of a child from a particular kind of union was all that was required. I know that some hypothesize that Rhaegar had set aside the idea that Aegon was the PtwP and wanted a new Prince and thus Jon would need to be legitimate, but I don't think we know that for sure, and the "three heads" might be something distinct from the Prince part, and we've no idea what the 3 heads might have referred to in Rhaegar's mind. I also can't completely set aside the mythology of the blue roses, and their connection to the Bael the Bard story, in which the child produced (from a sort of abduction) was also a bastard (one who saves his lineage).

I'm not opposed to the idea that Jon is a legit Targ, and I think that it's quite reasonable to suppose that Rhaegar might have wanted to leave behind 3 legitimate Targ offspring. But maybe there's some way in which actual, not just supposed, bastardy is important?

Actually, I think the prophecies are very relevant and I think we have a very good idea of what Rhaegar thought about the prophecies. The scene may be short in HotU, but it tells us a lot. It tells us that Rhaegar believed the following (at least at that moment in time): (i) Aegon was the Prince that was Promised; (ii) TPTWP has a song--A Song of Ice and Fire; and (iii) the dragon has three heads; and (iv) there must be one more (presumably one more head). In context, it seems clear to me that Rhaegar believed Aegon and Rhaenys to be two of the heads, and he needed to have a third child to be the third. I think it is clear that R believe that TPTWP would be one of the three heads. It also suggests that he believes that the three heads are critical to winning the Battle for the Dawn 2.0 that I think he saw coming. I don't think these conclusion are very controversial--at least not on the boards.

Now, for me these prophecies that Rhaegar believed in explains part of what he was doing with Lyanna--having the third head of the dragon. To me, it also suggests that Rhaegar likely at some point realized that Lyanna was Ice to his Fire and thus their child and not Aegon really would be TPTWP (and not the Bastard that was Promised--so marriage was important). But whether the child was thought to be TPTWP or merely the third head of the dragon, I would think Rhaegar would want to ensure the child's status as a "dragon" which likely implies he would want a marriage so the child would be a Targaryen from birth.

[RumHam]

RumHam, in the last post of the previous page.. It's Aegon IV, not Aegon V :P

Thank you. Too many Aegons.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

I know it's not a popular topic, but I do still feel that Rhaegar's ideas about prophesied events might be part of his "plan." I also am aware that this is a sort of dead-end route, since we have zero information about the contents of whatever prophecies Rhaegar knew about, so I apologize for pointing in this direction, and for raising questions rather than providing answers. But to my mind it may well be that the production of a child from a particular kind of union was all that was required. I know that some hypothesize that Rhaegar had set aside the idea that Aegon was the PtwP and wanted a new Prince and thus Jon would need to be legitimate, but I don't think we know that for sure, and the "three heads" might be something distinct from the Prince part, and we've no idea what the 3 heads might have referred to in Rhaegar's mind. I also can't completely set aside the mythology of the blue roses, and their connection to the Bael the Bard story, in which the child produced (from a sort of abduction) was also a bastard (one who saves his lineage).

I'm not opposed to the idea that Jon is a legit Targ, and I think that it's quite reasonable to suppose that Rhaegar might have wanted to leave behind 3 legitimate Targ offspring. But maybe there's some way in which actual, not just supposed, bastardy is important?

Agree with this in the main. Seems clear that politics converged with prophetic events to create RR.

Ultimately, the balance of ASOIAF will either vindicate or condemn Rhaegar Targaryen for his actions. If indeed Jon Snow is/was critical for averting apocalypse, eternal winter, or another Long Night, then he probably could not have been any younger than he was... and the unique circumstances of his birth and his upbringing are preparing him for that critical role...

Or Jon never mattered after all, the world ends anyway, and Rhaegar was a fool. Maybe that's the story GRRM is telling. We won't know until the very end.

Let's not forget Dany in all this. She's a key player too, and the cascade of events before, during, and immediately after RR shaped her upbringing and eventually led to the rebirth of dragons into the world. There's no way that the Dany of canon would have been the same growing up as a pampered Targaryen princess in KL.

For me, the new information shows not that he was just some political animal playing the game (and forgive me if my earlier posts implied that), but shows that it's not true that Rhaegar was so "prophecy minded that he was no Westerosi good" (with apologies for twisting that original proverb). I think we have to consider both.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Or Jon never mattered after all, the world ends anyway, and Rhaegar was a fool. Maybe that's the story GRRM is telling. We won't know until the very end.

We have been promised a bitter-sweet ending. That would be a bitter-bitter ending, so I highly doubt GRRM is telling that story.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think we all agree that at least the book proves that Rhaegar was not the idiot some think he was, right? Like, this finally put that to rest.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Thank you. Too many Aegons.

How is that possible? There's only 10 of them :p

[BearQueen87]

I think we all agree that at least the book proves that Rhaegar was not the idiot some think he was, right? Like, this finally put that to rest.

YES.

He was obviously smarter than people have previously wanted to say.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

We have been promised a bitter-sweet ending. That would be a bitter-bitter ending, so I highly doubt GRRM is telling that story.

I don't think he's telling that story, either. It would mean that no one in Westeros, past or present, was right about Rhaegar except Robert Baratheon... and I'm not sure that this is the one thing that Rob is going to be proven right about.

I think we all agree that at least the book proves that Rhaegar was not the idiot some think he was, right? Like, this finally put that to rest.

:agree: Rhaegar was a Man with a Plan. The plan involved prophecy and politics. And that fits with the series' themes.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

:agree: Rhaegar was a Man with a Plan. The plan involved prophecy and politics. And that fits with the series' themes.

Totally agree.

He definitely wasn't the man people (boarders, actually) believed him, being focussed on his harp, prophecy obsessed or an emo. He knew politics were important for the sake of the people and realm, while also trying to fulfil what he believed to be his fate.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I think we all agree that at least the book proves that Rhaegar was not the idiot some think he was, right? Like, this finally put that to rest.

For me YES. I never thought he was an 'idiot', maybe just careless, but now, Yes we can all agree he was a man with a plan. He was able to see his father for what he was, and even tried to do something about it. He was not a prophecy obsessed loon with no care for others, as some have said, that can be dismissed easily now.

[sj4iy]

Has there been a suggestion that it will need to be revised and re-released after the final books are written? Or are you just assuming as much? All I heard is that GRRM will write Fire and Blood, a history of the Targaryens, after the final book.

It very well may not be. But I'm saying unless it's revised and rewritten, I don't see how the information can be completely trusted.

[sj4iy]

That there were no other Targaryen polygamists after Maegor (There is a claim put forth by Blackfyre supporters that Aegon V promised Daemon he could have a second wife)

There were a few examples of Targeryen princes asking permission to set aside their wife in favor of another. Why would they have to do that if by rights a Targaryen prince can take a second wife? (without the kings leave. I think Rhaegar may have had an easier time of it if he asked Aerys for permission and Aerys said yes and pressured the High Septon. But that clearly didn't happen.)

The stuff I mentioned about Jaehaerys unifying the kingdoms under one set of laws. The timing of this opens the door for the possibility of polygamy being made officially illegal (it was probably already illegal in most of the seven independent kingdoms.)

Aegon IV has a mock wedding to one of his mistresses. Of all the Targaryen kings, this guy seems like the most likely to take a second wife. Yet he did not.

Maegor couldn't find a septon to marry him to a second wife.

Basically before the worldbook I thought they were probably married, there's precedent for that among the Targaryens and they could have used a weirwood to help avoid issues with the faith. Now it seems like for whatever reason Targaryen polygamy died with Maegor.

I guess I don't see why that would change your mind, though. We know that Rhaegar was obviously not THAT concerned with public opinion, since he crowned Lyanna in front of everyone, even passing over his own wife. If he's willing to go THAT far, why on earth would he care what people would think about his taking a second wife.

And actually, Maegor's a great precedent, because his took a second wife after his first wife failed to produce the heirs he wanted. Rhaegar wanted a third child, and his wife could not have any. Maegor wasn't allowed a 'divorce', so he took a second wife. Rhaegar could see this as an excellent basis for his actions.

[sj4iy]

The key piece of information that we're now missing is "Why did Rhaegar think he could get away with marrying Lyanna Stark?" It is evidently more significant than "he was going to be King so he could do whatever he wanted."

I think this is the big take-away from this new book. The original text strongly suggests it, and this book doesn't nothing to deny that Rhaegar was actively trying to depose his father. Being king would give him all the leeway he needed to have Lyanna as his second wife.

[Ygrain]

I've reported the thread for locking and started a new one: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/119657-rlj-without-spoiler-tags-v2/ Please move over the debate.

[sj4iy]

I think we all agree that at least the book proves that Rhaegar was not the idiot some think he was, right? Like, this finally put that to rest.

Agreed :)