[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags

[Ser Cold Fingers]

<snip>

:agree: Rhaegar was a Man with a Plan. The plan involved prophecy and politics. And that fits with the series' themes.

It's like you're talking about Ice and Fire...hmmm...

[Ygrain]

Please continue over here: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/119657-rlj-without-spoiler-tags-v2/?p=6397867

[UnmaskedLurker]

It very well may not be. But I'm saying unless it's revised and rewritten, I don't see how the information can be completely trusted.

I think you are being a little unfair to Elio and Linda. I believe everything in the book was read by and approved by GRRM. Ran (i.e., Elio) confirmed in another thread, for example, that the additional clues pointing to A+J=T were added by GRRM himself and not Elio or Linda. While I agree about the unreliable narrator issues, I don't see them as any different than any of the other books that have information communicated by unreliable narrators.

[Mal Malenkirk]

:agree: Rhaegar was a Man with a Plan. The plan involved prophecy and politics. And that fits with the series' themes.

I don't know exactly how smart he was, he failed in his apparent objectives after all. But I believe if he was wiser he probably should have concerned himself only with the politics (remove Aerys, stabilize the realm) and trusted the prophecies to fulfill themselves, as prophecies are supposed to. Like Dany's vision of the Red Wedding at the HoTU. What did she do to make the RW happen? That's right, nothing at all.

Unless that secret prophecy read something like: ''If you, Rhaegar Targaryen, do not marry and impregnate Lyanna Stark while Aerys is still in power, the world will ENDDDDD!''. Then I stand corrected, he had no choice. But in all likelyhood this secret prophecy is as obtuse as the others and putting it in your head that you understand exactly what it means and that you have to take specific steps to fulfill it isn't very wise.

Rhaegar had enough on his plate trying to remove Aerys from power before he harmed the kingdom, he should have focused on that and nothing else.

Anyway, if he was so dead set on marrying Lyanna and she agreed, he should still have just focused on his plan to remove Aerys and marry her once he was king (or in power at least). Yeah, she was bethrothed and soon to marry. She just had to refuse! She wasn't Sansa with Tywin's sword at her back. She's a strong willed young woman in a family that has no history of harming their daughters. The worst Rickard would have done is sent her to a convent which Rhaegar could have gotten her out of once in power. What an ordeal.

So I don't know about his smarts, but I do question his (and Lyanna's) wisdom.

In conclusion: Don't try to fulfill prophecies while playing the game of thrones. Also, don't drink and drive. One thing at a time.

[sj4iy]

I think you are being a little unfair to Elio and Linda. I believe everything in the book was read by and approved by GRRM. Ran (i.e., Elio) confirmed in another thread, for example, that the additional clues pointing to A+J=T were added by GRRM himself and not Elio or Linda. While I agree about the unreliable narrator issues, I don't see them as any different than any of the other books that have information communicated by unreliable narrators.

I'm not being unfair, I'm stating my opinion.

The book has some great information in it. But it doesn't have reliable information concerning anything I particular care about- basically, anything relating to the actual story. I found that disappointing. I think it would have been better to skip that stuff altogether and just drop the pretense of 'unreliable narrator' and wait until after the entire series was out before making such a book, instead of putting purposely misleading or incorrect information into it.

The other books don't present themselves as encyclopedias. They are actual narratives, and unreliable narrators are part of their charm. It's a distraction in this kind of book.

Again, I think this has some good information in it, but unfortunately, it's lacking in the information I actually wanted. The art is amazing, though.

[Alia of the knife]

I don't know exactly how smart he was, he failed in his apparent objectives after all. But I believe if he was wiser he probably should have concerned himself only with the politics (remove Aerys, stabilize the realm) and trusted the prophecies to fulfill themselves, as prophecies are supposed to. Like Dany's vision of the Red Wedding at the HoTU. What did she do to make the RW happen? That's right, nothing at all.

Unless that secret prophecies read something like: ''If you, Rhaegar Targaryen, do not marry and impregnate Lyanna Stark while Aerys is still in power, the world will ENDDDDD!''. Then I stand corrected, he had no choice. But in all likelyhood this secret prophecy is as obtuse as the others and putting it in your head that you understand exactly what it means and that you have to take specific steps to fulfill it isn't very wise.

Rhaegar had enough on his plate trying to remove Aerys from power before he harmed the kingdom, he should have focused on that and nothing else.

Anyway, if he was so dead set on marrying Lyanna and she agreed, he should still have just focused on his plan to remove Aerys and marry her once he was king (or in power at least). Yeah, she was bethrothed and soon to marry. She just had to refuse! She wasn't Sansa with Tywin's sword at her back. She's a strong willed young woman in a family that has no history of harming their daughters. The worst Rickard would have done is sent her to a convent which Rhaegar could have gotten her out of once in power. What an ordeal.

So I don't know about his smarts, but I do question his (and Lyanna's) wisdom.

In conclusion: Don't try to fulfill prophecies while playing game of thrones. Also, don't drink and drive. One thing at a time.

:agree: :bowdown:

Yes, and it doesn't negate Rhaegar as a decent guy, but maybe a man who for the first time in his life was faced with choosing between duty, doing the right thing, and what he wanted, (as most of us have been), and who perhaps failed, (as I think Selmy insinuates), which I think to a large degree is GRRM's narrative on the human heart.

I think he was trying to do the right thing for the kingdom, but meeting Lyanna became the "fly in the ointment."

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Unless that secret prophecies read something like: ''If you, Rhaegar Targaryen, do not marry and impregnate Lyanna Stark while Aerys is still in power, the world will ENDDDDD!''. Then I stand corrected, he had no choice. But in all likelyhood this secret prophecy is as obtuse as the others and putting it in your head that you understand exactly what it means and that you have to take specific steps to fulfill it isn't very wise.

Rhaegar had enough on his plate trying to remove Aerys from power before he harmed the kingdom, he should have focused on that and nothing else.

LMAO at the bold...

I agree with the rest.

[sj4iy]

(moved to next thread)

[Anath]

In conclusion: Don't try to fulfill prophecies while playing game of thrones. Also, don't drink and drive. One thing at a time.

This. Actually, Rhaegar was either more stupid than even I thought (seeing just how bad things were, trying to do something about it, and then throwing it all away in a way that was certain to anger Aerys further because hey, this is the smart thing to do), or he really lost it in a big way.

People admire his supposed smarts and the fact that in the deals in the kingdom. I am even more puzzled. He knew how bad things were. He couldn't have failed to see that the consequences of running away like this could be nothing but disastrous. He did it anyway.

Human heart, my ass. You don't leave a kid playing with box of matches because hey, you're in love and have to go on that date. Same here. I guess he did some really hard mental gymnastics to convince himself that this was the only way to make things right for everyone because in this particular situation, he must have been a monster to do what he did in the way he did because hey, everyone is entitled to happiness.

[sj4iy]

This. Actually, Rhaegar was either more stupid than even I thought (seeing just how bad things were, trying to do something about it, and then throwing it all away in a way that was certain to anger Aerys further because hey, this is the smart thing to do), or he really lost it in a big way.

People admire his supposed smarts and the fact that in the deals in the kingdom. I am even more puzzled. He knew how bad things were. He couldn't have failed to see that the consequences of running away like this could be nothing but disastrous. He did it anyway.

Human heart, my ass. You don't leave a kid playing with box of matches because hey, you're in love and have to go on that date. Same here. I guess he did some really hard mental gymnastics to convince himself that this was the only way to make things right for everyone because in this particular situation, he must have been a monster to do what he did in the way he did because hey, everyone is entitled to happiness.

And if Jon ends up helping to save the world from armageddon, I would say that Rhaegar was pretty damn justified in his actions.

[Anath]

And if Jon ends up helping to save the world from armageddon, I would say that Rhaegar was pretty damn justified in his actions.

Jon the mistake? Jon who was probably meant to be a girl? Somehow, I doubt it.

Trying to change fate is never a good thing. If Jon was ends up helping to save the world, he would have done so anyway. Elia would have died from an illness. Robert would have found his death the way Fireball did. And the bloodshed would have never happened, the wars and so on. Westeros would have been better prepared for the Others.

Nothing in this new release gets me to change my views on Rhaegar's actions. In fact, it makes me see them as even more troubling. But I do think that things now look more complicated than "he didn't know his old man was nuts and he was in love, and what's so bad about it?" Because he did know. This makes me actually give him some leeway about his motives.

[sj4iy]

Jon the mistake? Jon who was probably meant to be a girl? Somehow, I doubt it.

...because you have undeniable proof of that, right?

Trying to change fate is never a good thing. If Jon was ends up helping to save the world, he would have done so anyway. Elia would have died from an illness. Robert would have found his death the way Fireball did. And the bloodshed would have never happened, the wars and so on. Westeros would have been better prepared for the Others.

Nothing in this new release gets me to change my views on Rhaegar's actions. In fact, it makes me see them as even more troubling. But I do think that things now look more complicated than "he didn't know his old man was nuts and he was in love, and what's so bad about it?" Because he did know. This makes me actually give him some leeway about his motives.

Just because things don't work out as people plan doesn't mean they weren't worth the effort.

If Jon is the Prince that was Promised, then Rhaegar's actions, imo, are justified- even if they didn't work out as he thought they would. Because in the end, if Jon is the promised prince who helps save the world from armageddon, then it all comes down to Rhaegar and Lyanna running off together one night to make that happen.

[The Twinslayer]

To me, there is just no reason for Rhaegar to not at least try and make this legit. He wouldnt want his son to be a bastard, that's the main thing. Why would the Heir to the IT not want his son to be legit?

<snip>

Here is a question, can anyone provide a good reason that Rhaegar would NOT want to make at least this small effort (marriage to Lyanna) to un-bastardize his upcoming child?

Heat have had Melissa Blackwood in mind. She was a royal mistress who was well liked at court. She had a bastard son by Aegon IV. Her family built a statue of her (just like Ned built a statue of Lyanna) -- so there was no disgrace there -- and her son went on to be LC of the Watch (just like Jon).

The big mistake Aegon IV made was he legitimized his bastardss and they became a threat to his trueborn children. Rhaegar thought Aegon was the Prince that was Promised? Why have a legitimate aim with Lyanna who could be a threat to the PTWP?

[Anath]

Just because things don't work out as people plan doesn't mean they weren't worth the effort.

If Jon is the Prince that was Promised, then Rhaegar's actions, imo, are justified- even if they didn't work out as he thought they would. Because in the end, if Jon is the promised prince who helps save the world from armageddon, then it all comes down to Rhaegar and Lyanna running off together one night to make that happen.

And what effort did Rhaegar make? He disappeared, taking leave of politics and a leaving a trail of dead bodies in his wake. I'd say the ones who lost their lives and their families would beg to differ and think that he might have done better if he had put some effort into doing things one by one, instead of going prophetical in the most politically foolish way.

The effort might be worth it if it was only Rhaegar and Lyanna involved. Since it included other people's lives and deaths - predictably so - he should have found a better way to go about it. Literally every way would be better.

And if Jon doesn't end up saving the world? Would Rhaegar's actions be justified then? Because he probably really, really thought he would. Unless, of course, he thought that the three heads were needed not to save the world but repeat Aegon's Conquest in Essos. Do we have any evidence that the three heads were meant to bring good and not Fire and Blood?

[RumHam]

This is why we shouldn't start new iterations of threads until the last one is locked.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Heat have had Melissa Blackwood in mind. She was a royal mistress who was well liked at court. She had a bastard son by Aegon IV. Her family built a statue of her (just like Ned built a statue of Lyanna) -- so there was no disgrace there -- and her son went on to be LC of the Watch (just like Jon).

The big mistake Aegon IV made was he legitimized his bastardss and they became a threat to his trueborn children. Rhaegar thought Aegon was the Prince that was Promised? Why have a legitimate aim with Lyanna who could be a threat to the PTWP?

It seems clear from the HotU vision that Rhaegar believed all three heads of the dragon were necessary. So he would raise them as a team--I don't think he would consider they would contest each other. They needed to work as a team or the world would lost. To be a real team--I think he would want them to be full royalty--full Targaryens--full dragons.

And what effort did Rhaegar make? He disappeared, taking leave of politics and a leaving a trail of dead bodies in his wake. I'd say the ones who lost their lives and their families would beg to differ and think that he might have done better if he had put some effort into doing things one by one, instead of going prophetical in the most politically foolish way.

The effort might be worth it if it was only Rhaegar and Lyanna involved. Since it included other people's lives and deaths - predictably so - he should have found a better way to go about it. Literally every way would be better.

And if Jon doesn't end up saving the world? Would Rhaegar's actions be justified then? Because he probably really, really thought he would. Unless, of course, he thought that the three heads were needed not to save the world but repeat Aegon's Conquest in Essos. Do we have any evidence that the three heads were meant to bring good and not Fire and Blood?

Now you are just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. I think in context it is pretty clear that TPTWP prophecy has to do with winning the Battle for the Dawn 2.0, and that the three heads are part of the same prophecy, with TPTWP being one of the three heads. So no, it has nothing to do with conquering Essos or any other arbitrary theory--it is about saving the world.

[Anath]

Now you are just being difficult for the sake of being difficult. I think in context it is pretty clear that TPTWP prophecy has to do with winning the Battle for the Dawn 2.0, and that the three heads are part of the same prophecy, with TPTWP being one of the three heads. So no, it has nothing to do with conquering Essos or any other arbitrary theory--it is about saving the world.

No, I am asking a genuine question. I also think it had something to do with the Greater Good but I cannot actually remember seeing the two prophecies connected anywhere in the books. What we know and what the characters know are different things.

And I really can't remember anyone saying that the three heads were part of the battle to save the world. I remember TPWWP prophecy and the possible meaning of the three heads part is pushed away by Dany's admiration for Aegon and his sisters. By the way, I think that's the whole point of the polygamy of the past - to give Dany a precedent to rely on when she tries something like that. I love her and I'll be sad when it proves to be a part of her downfall because I believe this arrangement would bring even more troubles than it used to. Of course, Dany has no idea just how many problems it brought. She idolizes her family history. Poor girl and poor world.

[The Twinslayer]

It seems clear from the HotU vision that Rhaegar believed all three heads of the dragon were necessary. So he would raise them as a team--I don't think he would consider they would contest each other. They needed to work as a team or the world would lost. To be a real team--I think he would want them to be full royalty--full Targaryens--full dragons.

.

If Rhaegar thought that he was very naive. Every Targaryen civil war was fought between legitimate descendants of targ Kings where the children had different mothers (Dance of the Dragons, Blackfyres), and the original here heads --Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys -- bred great rivalries among the different children.

No, if Rhaegar was thinking, he needed Jon to be a bastard.

[UnmaskedLurker]

No, I am asking a genuine question. I also think it had something to do with the Greater Good but I cannot actually remember seeing the two prophecies connected anywhere in the books. What we know and what the characters know are different things.

And I really can't remember anyone saying that the three heads were part of the battle to save the world. I remember TPWWP prophecy and the possible meaning of the three heads part is pushed away by Dany's admiration for Aegon and his sisters. By the way, I think that's the whole point of the polygamy of the past - to give Dany a precedent to rely on when she tries something like that. I love her and I'll be sad when it proves to be a part of her downfall because I believe this arrangement would bring even more troubles than it used to. Of course, Dany has no idea just how many problems it brought. She idolizes her family history. Poor girl and poor world.

Go re-read the HotU vision. I believe in that context it is clear that the three heads are part of and connected to TPTWP. And it is clear from all other references to TPTWP that TPTWP is connected to the coming Battle for the Dawn. So saving the world is pretty clearly indicated in the text as what the three heads are there to do.

[UnmaskedLurker]

If Rhaegar thought that he was very naive. Every Targaryen civil war was fought between legitimate descendants of targ Kings where the children had different mothers (Dance of the Dragons, Blackfyres), and the original here heads --Aegon, Visenya and Rhaenys -- bred great rivalries among the different children.

No, if Rhaegar was thinking, he needed Jon to be a bastard.

None of those children were raised together--as a team--with a common goal. Rhaegar would have needed full strength and full legitimacy to train them to be the three heads and win the Battle for the Dawn. Rhaegar was not as interested in fights over the IT when the entire planet was at risk.