JonCon's Red Beard Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 It depends on what Rhaegar thought was coming. If you believed that a great apocalypse was coming and only something you can do can stop it, then how important does deposing your father suddenly seem in the long run? It is important to depose him if such father has the power to get on your way or kill you and your family. I agree that this doesn't discard the idea of Rhaegar being focused on the prophecy, BUT, I think given all the information we have about AERYS, Rhaegar realised pretty much the opposite of what Stannis conclude, in his case, he needed to assure first the throne to save the realm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 You've summed it all up. Whether he wanted to or no, Rhaegar was simply forced to play the game of thrones. It's exactly that he couldn't prepare for an apocalyptic war with another war on hand, and a crazy king who constantly did stupid shit and fucked things up. First he had to clear the ground for himself to have the time and means on hand. “Prince Rhaegar’s prowess was unquestioned, but he seldom entered the lists. He never loved the song of swords the way that Robert did, or Jaime Lannister. It was something he had to do, a task the world had set him. He did it well, for he did everything well. That was his nature. But he took no joy in it. Men said that he loved his harp much better than his lance.” No doubt the boy (Jon) had made the mistake of thinking that the Night’s Watch was made up of men like his uncle. If so, Yoren and his companions were a rude awakening. Tyrion felt sorry for the boy. He had chosen a hard life … or perhaps he should say that a hard life had been chosen for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 If I had tens of thousands of gold dragons on the line, I'd unhorse every knight there too! lol No, actually, if anyone I would suspect Doran Martell, due to the gain the Martells would see from a secret deal putting Rhaenys next in line. Then again, there is another party (or two parties, rather), that have been playing an even longer game than Doran Martell and are even more flush with gold - one of whom is right there in KL to sow chaos and discontent..... Oh I like the idea of Martell. It would mean Elia was in on it perhaps and I've always believed that Elia might know more than we think. I'm surrounded by people now and I can't stop laughing at the idea of Rhaegar moving to the Tower of Joy because he lost all of his money and couldn't pay the rent in Dragonstone... hahahhahaha... :lmao: :lmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anath Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 You've summed it all up. Whether he wanted to or no, Rhaegar was simply forced to play the game of thrones. It's exactly that he couldn't prepare for an apocalyptic war with another war on hand, and a crazy king who constantly did stupid shit and fucked things up. First he had to clear the ground for himself to have the time and means on hand. But he went about it in the stupidest way possible. Anything but disappearing with Lyanna like this after Aerys already: 1) didn't trust him 2) started trusting him even less specifically because he thought Rhaegar was after Lyanna in order to gain the support of the North for his little coup 3) showed that he merely tolerated his Dornish daughter in-law (who is specifically mentioned to have taken part in Rhaegar's decision to move to Dragonstone and so in fueling the rumours that Rhaegar meant to depose Aerys) and at least one of her children 4) was batshit crazy and paranoid well before Harrenhall ... you can place the points in whatever order you like. And after Rhaegar 1) slighted his wife, as now it is specifically mentioned to be the case 2) angered Robert Baratheon, thus losing the support of Storm's end for his little coup. He must have been an idiot indeed to think that running away with Lyanna was the political thing to do. If he was as savvy as some posters think the new release makes him, he would have seen that he was brewing the pot of political shitstorm. The only explanation I can see is that he took leave of his political sense and let his prophetical one and his nether regions take hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 It is important to depose him if such father has the power to get on your way or kill you and your family. I agree that this doesn't discard the idea of Rhaegar being focused on the prophecy, BUT, I think given all the information we have about AERYS, Rhaegar realised pretty much the opposite of what Stannis conclude, in his case, he needed to assure first the throne to save the realm. I think the word that's giving me trouble here is "focused"---as if one one was more important than the other. Is there a way to harmonize both his game of thrones playing AND his prophetic inclinations (that I'm still not convinced anyone outside of Aemon--and living at the start of GOT--knew about) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I'm surrounded by people now and I can't stop laughing at the idea of Rhaegar moving to the Tower of Joy because he lost all of his money and couldn't pay the rent in Dragonstone... hahahhahaha... Nah...Rhaegar arrived home to Dragonstone to find his bags packed and sitting next to the front door because Elia was a bit pissed after what he did in the tournament. The alimony and child support meant that Rhaegar couldn't afford anything but a desolate tower in the middle of Dorne XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IceFire125 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 It is important to depose him if such father has the power to get on your way or kill you and your family. I agree that this doesn't discard the idea of Rhaegar being focused on the prophecy, BUT, I think given all the information we have about AERYS, Rhaegar realised pretty much the opposite of what Stannis conclude, in his case, he needed to assure first the throne to save the realm. Something that his son, Jon, must do... You will have little joy of your command, but I think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. Kill the boy, Jon Snow. Winter is almost upon us. Kill the boy and let the man be born. And I believe at the cost of many of his loved ones in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Nah...Rhaegar arrived home to Dragonstone to find his bags packed and sitting next to the front door because Elia was a bit pissed after what he did in the tournament. The alimony and child support meant that Rhaegar couldn't afford anything but a desolate tower in the middle of Dorne XD "I know this tower looks shitty, Lya, but once we have our own babies and I bring the children for the monthly visit, it will be a tower of joy!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeon Pie Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I'm surrounded by people now and I can't stop laughing at the idea of Rhaegar moving to the Tower of Joy because he lost all of his money and couldn't pay the rent in Dragonstone... hahahhahaha... "I don't want a castle Rhae I want a tower" "That's my girl Lyanna I'm marrying you okay" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 hahahhahaa... I keep laughing... Rhaegar returns to DS to find his bags and harp on the front door, and summons six of his most closest friend to help him move out. And Arthur said "I know a place, my Prince. Close to my home... we'll be practically roommates!!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 It is important to depose him if such father has the power to get on your way or kill you and your family. I agree that this doesn't discard the idea of Rhaegar being focused on the prophecy, BUT, I think given all the information we have about AERYS, Rhaegar realised pretty much the opposite of what Stannis conclude, in his case, he needed to assure first the throne to save the realm. I disagree with this. I think Rhaegar believed first and foremost in securing the safety of the realm by assuring the 'three headed dragon' was there to save it from the coming 'darkness' after he realized that Elia would be able to bear no more children. I believe that he was willing to set aside his personal issues with his father and the right of succession to ensure that the third 'head of the dragon' was born. Rhaegar leaving Dragonstone shortly after the birth of Aegon (after which he found out that Elia would bear no more children), only to take off with Lyanna Stark and disappear for months afterwards (instead of attempting to do something else about his father) to me indicates that Rhaegar's 'mission' was for Lyanna, and not for some political motive. I think Rhaegar was planning on addressing the problems with his father after he had ensured that the third child would be born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I disagree with this. I think Rhaegar believed first and foremost in securing the safety of the realm by assuring the 'three headed dragon' was there to save it from the coming 'darkness' after he realized that Elia would be able to bear no more children. I believe that he was willing to set aside his personal issues with his father and the right of succession to ensure that the third 'head of the dragon' was born. Rhaegar leaving Dragonstone shortly after the birth of Aegon (after which he found out that Elia would bear no more children), only to take off with Lyanna Stark and disappear for months afterwards (instead of attempting to do something else about his father) to me indicates that Rhaegar's 'mission' was for Lyanna, and not for some political motive. I think after Rhaegar was planning on addressing the problems with his father after he had ensured that the third child would be born. :agree: Once again, I agree with sj4ij. I think people are looking too hard at the new information and ignoring all the old information. Rhaegar's famous last words to Jaime suggest that Rhaegar had put his political issues to the side. Rhaegar's actions in staying hidden for so long suggest that he put his political issues to the side. Rhaegar having a baby with (and presumably marrying) Lyanna before securing a regime changes suggests that Rhaegar had put his political issues to the side. What in the book changes what we already thought--that Rhaegar had a plan that was disrupted by Aerys being at the tourney? Rhaegar then has a baby (Aegon) and realizes that his ability to produce the third head of the dragon is in jeopardy. He puts everything else to the side to get together with Lyanna and stay hidden until the baby is born. I have seen nothing in the information that has been reported from WoIaF (I don't have my copy yet--coming next week) that change this analysis. What are some of you seeing that I am missing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I disagree with this. I think Rhaegar believed first and foremost in securing the safety of the realm by assuring the 'three headed dragon' was there to save it from the coming 'darkness' after he realized that Elia would be able to bear no more children. I believe that he was willing to set aside his personal issues with his father and the right of succession to ensure that the third 'head of the dragon' was born. Rhaegar leaving Dragonstone shortly after the birth of Aegon (after which he found out that Elia would bear no more children), only to take off with Lyanna Stark and disappear for months afterwards (instead of attempting to do something else about his father) to me indicates that Rhaegar's 'mission' was for Lyanna, and not for some political motive. I think after Rhaegar was planning on addressing the problems with his father after he had ensured that the third child would be born. TBH, I'm sure Rhaegar knew he had time, even years, until the apocalypse was near, specially after figuring out Aegon was TPTWP because there is no way a couple of toddlers were going to fight the evil. He definitely had time to have a third child. Also, I think you're seeing it from another perspective. It's not like Aegon left DS after he realised Elia couldn't have more children. I think it's more like, after his failed attempt to gather Lords to his cause in the Tourney, he left DS after he was sure Elia and Aegon were ok. He was probably planning something else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pigeon Pie Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 But he went about it in the stupidest way possible. Anything but disappearing with Lyanna like this after Aerys already: 1) didn't trust him 2) started trusting him even less specifically because he thought Rhaegar was after Lyanna in order to gain the support of the North for his little coup 3) showed that he merely tolerated his Dornish daughter in-law (who is specifically mentioned to have taken part in Rhaegar's decision to move to Dragonstone and so in fueling the rumours that Rhaegar meant to depose Aerys) and at least one of her children 4) was batshit crazy and paranoid well before Harrenhall ... you can place the points in whatever order you like. And after Rhaegar 1) slighted his wife, as now it is specifically mentioned to be the case 2) angered Robert Baratheon, thus losing the support of Storm's end for his little coup. He must have been an idiot indeed to think that running away with Lyanna was the political thing to do. If he was as savvy as some posters think the new release makes him, he would have seen that he was brewing the pot of political shitstorm. The only explanation I can see is that he took leave of his political sense and let his prophetical one and his nether regions take hold. Okay, I may take a little long to explain my point so please bear with me. 1. Let's assume that Rhaegar had already realized there was no escaping deposing Aerys. He had to do it for the sake of everyone before his own. Which is the truth, for reasons I don't think I have to mention. 2. Let's also assume from the material we got that yes, he was on the move to do it and had already started gathering allies, if not openly yet. 3. I'm pretty sure he does realize there's no way he'd be able to make ALL of Westeros stand with him; his best hope was to make so many allies that those who don't support him get scared to be on the losing side and then be punished, and end up giving his father up. 4. On that regard, Storm's End was sacrificable (I know this word doesn't exist). It was doubtful from the beginning that Storm's End would join his cause, since Steffon had been BFFs with Aerys, it's unlikely his sons would want to betray that friendship after their dad. 5. Now, that sacrifice CAN be mended, if the North and some of their allies would join him. He already has Dorne, and he has Lord Whent, so if he were also to have the North, it's likely the Riverlands would follow, and maybe the Vale. Also, since Tywin had already indicated a preference for Rhaegar as future king, I'm assuming he'd join Rhaegar, too. 6. But how to bring the North to the cause? A political marriage is the answer. Engagements CAN be broken, look at Sansa and Joffrey. And, wouldn't it be pretty tempting to Rickard to have his daughter become queen? 7. Rhaegar and Lyanna agree to that somehow. They fall in love at one point, but that's not my point, my point is the political benefits of the marriage. 8. Had the rebellion begun to brew yet? Nope. In fact, like I have said so many times before, the escape alone was not enough to cause the rebellion. What caused it was Aerys executing Rickard and Brandon and demanding the heads of Ned and Robert. 9. So, when Rhaegar escaped with Lyanna, he didn't know that Aerys was going to shit on everything by executing the very man he intends to gain to his cause by marrying his daughter, causing a rebellion against both of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I think we all should be open at the idea of Jon being an accident... ...just saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrafntýr Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I have to agree with Anath's objection to the "politically saavy Rhaegar" view, on the grounds that I can't at all see a single politically saavy aspect of running off with Lyanna. Right there you've just lost the North and possibly Dorne, too, not to mention the North's allies of the Riverlands and the Vale. How can this possibly be part of a political strategy? Or maybe the argument is not so much that Rhaegar is politically saavy, just that he's doing a lot of politicking? Fair enough! But he doesn't seem to have been very good at it. I think we cling to the "prophecy-obsessed Rhaegar" because we want there to be some sense to Rhaegar's actions, that even if he knew he was engaging in political suicide, he thought the end would be worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hrafntýr Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 @ Pigeon Pie: But why not talk to Lyanna's dad first? If this was supposed to be a political marriage, wouldn't it make sense to negotiate it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonCon's Red Beard Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 We don't know what happened with Lyanna because Yandel doesn't know either, but he hints hardly that Rhaegar was making political moves here and there, and all of a sudden, he said "fuck the King, fuck Westeros, fuck my marriage, I'm running with Lyanna Stark"? Doesn't sound consistent with the man the Maester and other people has described before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BearQueen87 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I think we all should be open at the idea of Jon being an accident... ...just saying... But that would mean that Rhaegar really was irresponsible and just ran off with Lyanna which seems to fly in the face of what this Maester (with an obvious anti-Targ/anti-Rhaegar audience) is saying about Rhaegar and something you keep pointing to as proof of Rhaegar's savviness. So, are you suggesting that Rhaegar saw Lyanna again, dropped all these plans against Aerys, and just vanished? That doesn't sound like Rhaegar at all. And certainly not the weirdly pro-Rhaegar bent of this Maester. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ygrain Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 @ Pigeon Pie: But why not talk to Lyanna's dad first? If this was supposed to be a political marriage, wouldn't it make sense to negotiate it? And how do you know that he didn't? It was Brandon who went bananas, not Rickard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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