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Ygrain

[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags

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We already knew from the HOTU vision that Rhaegar believed Aegon to be TPTWP and was looking for the third head. That's probably what he expected Lyanna's child to be. I wonder what he would have called Jon and if he would have been surprised that it was a boy, rather than a daughter to be named Visenya.

Thing is: when did he learn of this Pact of ice and fire? When did the information "click" in his head?

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Do we have a timeline when her betrothal to Robert was decided? She and Ned are at Winterfell when he reminiscences on holding Mya in his arms, so is this pre-tourney or post-tourney?

When Rhaegar "crowning" Lyanna is described, it is mentioned that she had been already betrothed to Robert. So definitly before the tourney.

Mya's birth can now also be determined:

She was 17 or 18 in 298AC, and Robert (born in 262AC) was younger than this (thus 16 or younger) when inpregnating Mya's mother.

So Mya was:

-16 turning 17 in 298, thus born in 281

-17 turning 18 in 298, thus born in 280

-18 turning 19 in 298, thus born in 279

Robert was born in 262AC:

-if Mya was born in 281, her conception was in either 281 or 280 ; Robert would have been 18 or 19, and thus too old.

-if Mya was born in 280, her conception was in either 280 or 279 ; Robert would have been 17 or 18, and thus too old.

-if Mya was born in 279, her conception was in either 279 or 278 ; Robert would have been 16 or 17. Robert being 16 would fit.

So I, at least, conclude from this that Mya was born in 279AC, which gives a window of 279 to the tourney in 281 for Lyanna to have been betrothed..

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Is it referred to as a duel, though?

The quote is a bit unclear - "Oh, there, he’s Cregan Stark. He fought with Prince Aemon once, and the Dragonknight said he’d never faced a finer swordsman".

Fought seems to imply that it wasnt for fun

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Re: Harrenhal,

I've speculation from... lets see, this is early 2002 ... explaining just why I think Lyanna was at Harrenhal. The "close to" Harrenhal strikes me as not doing much to explain why Lyanna was there and why she met Rhaegar there, but it becomes easier to see why if you follow the line of reasoning here:

I think the text basically confirms the broad outline of this. Lyanna stayed in the riverlands -- and probably with the Whents -- with the idea that they'd meet up with her when the wedding party got down there, and then Brandon and his buddies rode ahead of said party to hang out with Lyanna while the train slowly made its way there... only for Brandon to find Lyanna gone, and word that Rhaegar had gone off with her under unclear circumstances. He races to King's Landing, word is sent to the Tullys (where Lord Hoster curses Brandon's foolishness), and Rickard, Ned, etc. end up having to hold up and try to figure what to do ... maybe in the Vale, who knows.

The discussion we had several years later had a bit different starting point - it seemed a general assumption back then that Lyanna was kidnapped from Winterfell and it didn't make much sense. Why would Rhaegar go to the North, how would they avoid being detected on Stark lands? So it seemed reasonable that Lyanna was somewhere closer, but where? There aren't many locations in the South that are somehow tied to the Starks, and those which are (like Riverrun or Vale) are never mentioned in connection with Lyanna... except Harrenhall. Where we have a girl of an age with Lyanna, a prominent family, and a relation to the in-laws-to-be via Minissa Whent. Metatextually, Harrenhal is central to several story arcs, and it is a recurring location - it may have played such a role before. Why would Lyanna stay there? We might have a parallel in Arya, who is so much like Lyanna, was sent to KL: to get better manners for her future role of a southern lady.

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Is it just me or does anyone else find Rhaegar look like Chris Hemsworth, only leaner and with silver hair?



It's strange that there's been no record of Stark-Targaryen marriage before. If Rhaegar and Lyanna married, I wonder how it will impact Jon as the first product of ice and fire.


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Re: Ran - Harrenhal



This makes sense. However, there is also the possibility that Lyanna agreed to come to the Vale and Brandon hoped to see her there. Although this seems like an unnecessary voyage for Lyanna, she might be expected to stay with her Royce relatives rather than the Whents after the Tourney.



ETA: Waiting in the Vale without doing anyhing does not seem good for Stark girls with troubling thoughts about arranged marriages :) Perhaps Lyanna felt like she could take it no more and escaped the Vale before the guests arrived and found her way to Dragonstone.


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In relation to polygamy, the following passage strickes me as quite peculiar:



Daemon [blackfyre] was not so much opposed to wedding Rohanne of Tyrosh as he was convinced that he could follow in the footsteps of Aegon the Conqueror and Maegor the Cruel and have more than one bride. Aegon might even have promised to indulge him in this (some of Blackfyre's partisans later claimed this was the case) but Daeron was of a different mind entirely.

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Is it just me or does anyone else find Rhaegar look like Chris Hemsworth, only leaner and with silver hair?

It's strange that there's been no record of Stark-Targaryen marriage before. If Rhaegar and Lyanna married, I wonder how it will impact Jon as the first product of ice and fire.

He appears more stern and masculine than I imagined him.

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Is it just me or does anyone else find Rhaegar look like Chris Hemsworth, only leaner and with silver hair?

It's strange that there's been no record of Stark-Targaryen marriage before. If Rhaegar and Lyanna married, I wonder how it will impact Jon as the first product of ice and fire.

I found it very strange as well, I was sure there would have been at least one instance given the importance of the Starks. But apparently I was wrong.

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Thing is: when did he learn of this Pact of ice and fire? When did the information "click" in his head?

1) In the times when he devoured the books

2) After he met Lyanna

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Can we be sure that Rhaegar went directly for Harrenhal after he set out from Dragonstone with his companions? Yandel phrases it 'which eventually led him into the Riverlands', suggesting that they may have had a different destination first. And would it be implausible to assume that Connington, Myles Mooton, and others may have gone with him at least on some portions of the journey?



Rhaegar's journey was clearly caused by Aegon's birth, most likely on Dragonstone (which also may have turned, in his mind, to the promised prince's birthplace - there is a very beautiful and subtle clue about Dragonstone being full of smoke and salt in Aegon's reign) after he decided that he was not the One. The comet would have heralded his birth, but Rhaegar did not have confirmation until he actually had a living son.



I'd not be surprised if Rhaegar's journey had the purpose to clarify prophetic issues - i.e. search for the Ghost of High Heart - and after that he may have decided that he needed Lyanna. Surely he would have tried to confirm prophecy through the same 'magical source' Jaehaerys once used, too.



If Lyanna and Rhaegar hooked up together and made plans at Harrenhal - perhaps after the coronation, they would talked to each other first - then she might have insisted to stay at Harrenhal with the Whents. Considering the strong will, that's easily imaginable, especially if she had made friends there.



Robert clearly was long betrothed to Lyanna, anything else did not make all that much sense. I'm inclined to believe that Ned misremembered that he came down from the Eyrie to Harrenhal in the False Spring since it makes no sense to assume that Jon Arryn had moved his court to the Eyrie before the Citadel had officially declared spring - not to mention that even in a very warm false spring the snow should linger quite some time on the Giant's Lance.



Robert also was never in Winterfell - at least that's the strong vibe we get when he visit the North in AGoT.


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*snip

May Stone is listed as a maid of nineteen in the ASoS appendix, that is late 299-300, making late 280 her likely birth year. And... Robert was born in 263 according to this, which seems reasonable, if complicated. We've disagreed on this before, and shall continue to do so, I suppose. However, it does seem like the assumption (as all of these "calculations" inevitably are) that requires the least amount of mental gymnastics is probably the correct one-- i.e. the age given in the Appendix is most likely the correct information, given the consistent "unreliability" of our PoV narrators.

In other words, there is certainly room for either interpretation of the betrothal timeline to be correct, as neither can be reasonably proved or disproved using the text alone without assumptions :)

Also, I don't believe that Robert is mentioned as being betrothed to Lyanna at the Tourney. That is based upon an SSM where George was asked about Robert's reaction and gave a typically vague response ;)

@Lord Varys-- why would it not make sense for a betrothal between a fourteen year old girl and a seventeen year old young man to have been announced at around the time of the ToH? Certainly since Robert was never at Winterfell (though it seems clear Ned traveled back and forth) it seems reasonable to think they might have been given an opportunity to meet (at the tourney...) prior to or shortly after their betrothal being formally announced? That announcement is only ever referenced in text, afaik, in the Ned PoV where he remembers it happening "long ago... in Winterfell" Could have been shortly before or shortly after the ToH (as the May Stone discussion indicates) but long before? I don't think the text supports that.

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TWOIAF directly states that Robert was born in 262, as was Brandon. And this is not something where a maester would have been likely to make a mistake.

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Lady Gwyn,



Robert's birth date is confirmed as 262 AC in the book, just as are Brandon's (the same year) and Ned's - and thus also Stannis' - in 263. The beginning of Aerys' section.



The 'Year of the False Spring' also states that Robert had long been betrothed to Lyanna Stark around the time the coronation and the following uproar is described.



My guess is that Robert and Lyanna met once in the Vale, some years prior to the tourney, after the betrothal was made, and the famous 'love is sweet' talk occurred shortly before Harrenhal in Winterfell.


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Can we be sure that Rhaegar went directly for Harrenhal after he set out from Dragonstone with his companions?Yandel phrases it 'which eventually led him into the Riverlands', suggesting that they may have had a different destination first. And would it be implausible to assume that Connington, Myles Mooton, and others may have gone with him at least on some portions of the journey?

Rhaegar's journey was clearly caused by Aegon's birth, most likely on Dragonstone (which also may have turned, in his mind, to the promised prince's birthplace - there is a very beautiful and subtle clue about Dragonstone being full of smoke and salt in Aegon's reign) after he decided that he was not the One. The comet would have heralded his birth, but Rhaegar did not have confirmation until he actually had a living son.

I'd not be surprised if Rhaegar's journey had the purpose to clarify prophetic issues - i.e. search for the Ghost of High Heart - and after that he may have decided that he needed Lyanna. Surely he would have tried to confirm prophecy through the same 'magical source' Jaehaerys once used, too.

If Lyanna and Rhaegar hooked up together and made plans at Harrenhal - perhaps after the coronation, they would talked to each other first - then she might have insisted to stay at Harrenhal with the Whents. Considering the strong will, that's easily imaginable, especially if she had made friends there.

Robert clearly was long betrothed to Lyanna, anything else did not make all that much sense. I'm inclined to believe that Ned misremembered that he came down from the Eyrie to Harrenhal in the False Spring since it makes no sense to assume that Jon Arryn had moved his court to the Eyrie before the Citadel had officially declared spring - not to mention that even in a very warm false spring the snow should linger quite some time on the Giant's Lance.

Robert also was never in Winterfell - at least that's the strong vibe we get when he visit the North in AGoT.

OR that he had no idea, and in time the destination proved to be Riverlands.

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Well, he should have known where Lyanna was, shouldn't he? That would not have been a state secret.


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Well, he should have known where Lyanna was, shouldn't he? That would not have been a state secret.

They (at court, the lickspittles) didn't know Rhaegar was going; Rhaegar knew.

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May Stone is listed as a maid of nineteen in the ASoS appendix, that is late 299-300, making late 280 her likely birth year. And... Robert was born in 263 according to this, which seems reasonable, if complicated. We've disagreed on this before, and shall continue to do so, I suppose. However, it does seem like the assumption (as all of these "calculations" inevitably are) that requires the least amount of mental gymnastics is probably the correct one-- i.e. the age given in the Appendix is most likely the correct information, given the consistent "unreliability" of our PoV narrators.

In other words, there is certainly room for either interpretation of the betrothal timeline to be correct, as neither can be reasonably proved or disproved using the text alone without assumptions :)

Also, I don't believe that Robert is mentioned as being betrothed to Lyanna at the Tourney. That is based upon an SSM where George was asked about Robert's reaction and gave a typically vague response ;)

Robert's birth year is confirmed as 262AC in the World Book, (which means the original calculation is wrong, and when allowed, needs changing of source on the wiki) which is why I posted a renewed version of the calculation for Mya.

Mya is stated to have been 19, either in late 299AC, or early 300AC. Was she

  • 18 turning 19 in 299AC -> born in 280

19 turning 20 in 299AC -> born in 279

18 turning 19 in 300AC -> born in 281

19 turning 20 in 300AC -> born in 280

?

That's the question. And this is also precisely why I brought it up again (that, and a question was asked about it :) )

The thing is that the Storm appendix doesn´t state when she´s 19. Does the appendix lists ages in 299AC, or in 300AC= What about those characters we only meet in 300AC?

As to Robert's betrothal to Lyanna. When Rhaegar presents the crown to Lyanna, the world book states the following:

Yet if this were true, why did Lady Lyanna's brother seem so distraught at the honor the prince had bestowed upon her? Brandon Stark, the heir to Winterfell, had to be restrained from confronting Rhaegar at what he took as a slight upon his sister's honor, for Lyanna Stark had long been betrothed to Robert Baratheon, Lord of Storm's End.

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So, does anyone else find it funny that the "narrator" is so dismissive of Lyanna's beauty in a book meant for Robert?

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