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Ygrain

[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags

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I suppose Elia's frailty had to do with her "function" as a future Queen. Considering that it was her "duty" to pop one heir after another one, the fact she was bed ridden after labour could have been considered as her being weaker than she really was. She managed to get two healthy children in the lapse of three years (I think), though . And she recovered well.



I had thought that it was Pycelle the one telling Rhaegar about Elia not being able to bear more children, as a way to clean the way for a healthier Cersei. Yet, Aegon was born in Dragonstone, and they probably had their own maester. Unless, Pycelle was sent to attend the birth of a royal baby and he told Rhaegar that.


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Right, I know. It's just that the time seems to have shrunk (if I'm reading your analysis correctly) and makes me wonder how frail frail really is in this case.

And perhaps JonCon was making it sound worse than it was in truth, because he didn't really like Elia to begin with.

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And perhaps JonCon was making it sound worse than it was in truth, because he didn't really like Elia to begin with.

Could be. But he's not stating his opinion but quoting someone else. "She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward". I can't remember no one else has mentioned that, though.

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Well, 2 of those "half-dozen" could have been Whent and Dayne. I mean, they were close friends of Rhaegar and it would make sense if he had 2 KGs protecting him. But who were the other 4? Connington didn't know anything, Myles Mooton was at the Stony Sept, which makes it likely that he wasn't involved either. This leaves us Richard Lonmouth and 3 unknowns.

Kudos to the people who have theorized years ago that Lyanna had been somewhere around Harrenhal when the "abduction" took place.

Aegon _was_ born on Dragonstone, which, together with the comet at the time of his conception made him fit the prophecy more than Lyanna's child. Also, Rhaegar didn't leave Elia and his kids with his crazy father.

And Brandon was an even greater idiot than initially suspected, because it was widely known that Rhaegar didn't live in KL, nor was a frequent visitor there. In fact, had he been even moderately sensible, if he had laid his grievance before the Mad King, it is likely that Brandon would have had Aerys's full support!

Oh, and there is no record of polygamy being accepted as legitimate in Westeros in the last couple of millenia, bar the Iron Islands, apart from the "don't ask, don't tell" situation with Aegon and his sisters. Maegor's polygamy had never been accepted and nobody else ever tried again. Nor did mere princes have authority to set their marriages aside.

Brandon does seem to be a hotheaded idiot by many accounts (he also had to be restrained to not "punish" Rhaegar for crowning Lyanna as Harrenhal) but I doubt he didn't think it out at all that he even forgot Rhaegar couldn't be in KL. I think his visit had other intentions as well as looking like a total fucking idiot.

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Sorry, don't have the book yet so help me out here. This is the passage, yes?

How is this before the Rebellion? "New Heir" reads to me like Aerys made Viserys his heir only following the death of Rhaegar at the Trident. If that's the case, then the KG at the TOJ wouldn't know

Or they simply don't care who Aerys appoints, and they're going to support the blood of Rhaegar just like they supported his father against Aerys.

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Or they simply don't care who Aerys appoints, and they're going to support the blood of Rhaegar just like they supported his father against Aerys.

This is what I've always believed, even before book :dunno:

I'm very very very very sure the KG wanted Rhaegar as King as long as Aerys got no harm. He was their King in everything but a formal naming by the Faith or whoever named Kings those days. I mean, Arthur was his friend and Lewyn was also a close confidant. Whent's family were involved in the tourney and, maybe was also Darry (see here). Hightower knew where to find Rhaegar too. So... that's five KG out of seven.

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Could be. But he's not stating his opinion but quoting someone else. "She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince Rhaegar afterward". I can't remember no one else has mentioned that, though.

Kevan says that Cersei would have given Rhaegar the sons he wanted, which implies "the sons that Elia couldn't give him".

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So, I wanted to ask about something that just occurred to me.



What are the chances that R traveled north for reasons completely unrelated to Lyanna (and still unclear to me, but now that it's canon that Rhaegar played politics behind daddy's back, I think he was going to form alliances or something) and happened to meet her (and why she was there is still unclear to me too) and she joined him to support his political cause? That whether or not they had feelings for each other, theirs was a political marriage meant to secure the north to Rhaegar's side in the future, and so was the conception of Jon? Perhaps Rhaegar never thought much of Jon (I mean other than being his son, of course) and still believed Aegon would be TPTWP?


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This is what I've always believed, even before book :dunno:

I'm very very very very sure the KG wanted Rhaegar as King as long as Aerys got no harm. He was their King in everything but a formal naming by the Faith or whoever named Kings those days. I mean, Arthur was his friend and Lewyn was also a close confidant. Whent's family were involved in the tourney and, maybe was also Darry (see here). Hightower knew where to find Rhaegar too. So... that's five KG out of seven.

Hightower, to me, is still the biggest question mark. How did he know where to find Rhaegar? Was it because he was "in on it" or because someone told him? Dayne and Whent I can see allying with Rhaegar to remove Aerys...it's Hightower that's the biggest sticking point.

And even if the KG are playing the GOT, I still don't think it negates RL being married, mostly because of Hightower. (maybe I'll change my mind after I actually read the book and not just people's spoilers....lol)

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Kevan says that Cersei would have given Rhaegar the sons he wanted, which implies "the sons that Elia couldn't give him".

I know, I proposed the theory :P But... Kevan is Tywin's brother. He probably knew something that Pycelle would confide to Tywin, or that Tywin asked him to tell Rhaegar as well.

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Kevan says that Cersei would have given Rhaegar the sons he wanted, which implies "the sons that Elia couldn't give him".

Rather interesting that it's the Lannister that knows this, though. Goes back to people being suspicious of Pycelle.

(sidenote...I really want my book, already, Amazon...)

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This is what I've always believed, even before book :dunno:

I'm very very very very sure the KG wanted Rhaegar as King as long as Aerys got no harm. He was their King in everything but a formal naming by the Faith or whoever named Kings those days. I mean, Arthur was his friend and Lewyn was also a close confidant. Whent's family were involved in the tourney and, maybe was also Darry (see here). Hightower knew where to find Rhaegar too. So... that's five KG out of seven.

And, formally, they can't be blamed- Aerys had proven dangerous to the safety of everyone in his family. He was raping Rhaella, and may have tried to abuse Viserys (Rhealla had to shield the boy from him), and he was already very mistrustful of Rhaegar, I bet he'd harm him if he could. If worse would come to worst and people would question the KG why they supported R against his dad, they could tell them how harmful Aerys had become.

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Hightower, to me, is still the biggest question mark. How did he know where to find Rhaegar? Was it because he was "in on it" or because someone told him? Dayne and Whent I can see allying with Rhaegar to remove Aerys...it's Hightower that's the biggest sticking point.

I think Hightower was on it. When Jaime mentioned that he took him apart to tell him not to judge the King that sounds (to me) as him saying "easy boy, we're on it. We know...".

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The False Spring of 281 lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance.

The weather at the tourney was springlike, right? Jaime knelt on green grass when he was invested. That was the basis for my estimate on the timing of the tourney. Does that fit with the birthdays of Rhaenys and Aegon?

Then again, Elia would probably not be traveling much once she was very far along with her pregnancy with Aegon. If Rhaegar "took to the roads with the coming of the new year", and yet was present with Elia for Aegon's birth (as seen by Dany in tHotU), a midyear date for the tourney must be right, I guess. Unless she traveled by ship from Dragonstone, up the Trident, to quite near Harrenhal, and back the same way. And wasn't prone to seasickness, even when pregnant.

Thinking as (or after) I type, obviously.

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I think Hightower was on it. When Jaime mentioned that he took him apart to tell him not to judge the King that sounds (to me) as him saying "easy boy, we're on it. We know...".

Yep, that's always been my take on that passage as well.

I NEED THE FUCKING BOOK.

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And, formally, they can't be blamed- Aerys had proven dangerous to the safety of everyone in his family. He was raping Rhaella, and may have tried to abuse Viserys (Rhealla had to shield the boy from him), and he was already very mistrustful of Rhaegar, I bet he'd harm him if he could. If worse would come to worst and people would question the KG why they supported R against his dad, they could tell them how harmful Aerys had become.

I agree this might be the case with some of the KG---but, again. It's Hightower and his "do not judge the King" speech to Jaime. If Hightower was that loyal to this oaths, then staying with Jon at the TOJ is just being a KG, even if his other brothers have different reasons, like swearing to Rhaegar.

I think Hightower was on it. When Jaime mentioned that he took him apart to tell him not to judge the King that sounds (to me) as him saying "easy boy, we're on it. We know...".

Aaaaand I read it as Hightower being loyal to his oaths almost to a fault and then sticking at the TOJ to fulfill his oaths as KG. Dayne and Whent I'm willing to make concessions for, but the White Bull....like I said, maybe I'll change my mind once I'm reading the book and not grasping at spoilers from you lovely lot.

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If Dayne stayed out of loyalty to Rhaegar when he was supposed to go to Viserys as Aerys' heir, he wouldn't be the finest knight ever for Ned.


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If Dayne stayed out of loyalty to Rhaegar when he was supposed to go to Viserys as Aerys' heir, he wouldn't be the finest knight ever for Ned.

:agree: This. In addition, I think people are making too much of this political issue between Rhaegar and Aerys. Yes, Rhaegar wanted "changes" made--which might or might not have meant deposing Aerys. But to suggest that the entire KG (or 5 of 7) were in on the plot seems to be a bridge too far. Hightower--the ultimate stickler for rules--now is a co-conspirator to overthrow the king? I don't buy it. Ned talks of those KG as being part of a time when being a knight meant something. I don't think it meant conspiring to overthrow the king.

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