[TWOIAF Spoilers] R+L=J without spoiler tags

[BearQueen87]

If Dayne stayed out of loyalty to Rhaegar when he was supposed to go to Viserys as Aerys' heir, he wouldn't be the finest knight ever for Ned.

Ah, yes. Excellent point.

:agree: This. In addition, I think people are making too much of this political issue between Rhaegar and Aerys. Yes, Rhaegar wanted "changes" made--which might or might not have meant deposing Aerys. But to suggest that the entire KG (or 5 of 7) were in on the plot seems to be a bridge too far. Hightower--the ultimate stickler for rules--now is a co-conspirator to overthrow the king? I don't buy it. Ned talks of those KG as being part of a time when being a knight meant something. I don't think it meant conspiring to overthrow the king.

Hightower, Hightower, Hightower. He's still the big red flashing neon light in all this. Just based on my spoiler readings, nothing is changing my mind that Hightower was suddenly in on a plot.

[Pigeon Pie]

How would Ned know that the KG were trying to overthrow the King?

From Lyanna, on her deathbed. If what I think is correct and she was politically involved with Rhaegar, then she must have been in on everything.

[Ingelheim]

From Lyanna, on her deathbed. If what I think is correct and she was politically involved with Rhaegar, then she must have been in on everything.

How would she be politically involved with Rhaegar? Aerys was trying to disinherit Rhaegar before the Tourney at Harrenhal, right?

[UnmaskedLurker]

How would Ned know that the KG were trying to overthrow the King?

Lyanna would have told him. And even if she didn't unless Ned had reason to believe that Jon is King, he would have expected the KG to go to Viserys. Not going to Viserys would disqualify them from being the best knights--no matter their reason for staying at ToJ--UNLESS the KG considered Jon to be the real king.

[Ingelheim]

Lyanna would have told him. And even if she didn't unless Ned had reason to believe that Jon is King, he would have expected the KG to go to Viserys. Not going to Viserys would disqualify them from being the best knights--no matter their reason for staying at ToJ--UNLESS the KG considered Jon to be the real king.

I see this:

1-Lyanna tells Ned she married Rhaegar. Thus, Jon is Rhaegar's rightful heir, not Viserys.

2-That doesn't mean the KG weren't trying to overthrow Aerys. It just means Ned didn't know it.

I mean, Ned couldn't have known everything.

[PrettyPig]

Couple of thoughts, in total random and disjointed order:

1) If "not ten leagues from Harrenhal" works out to be the Inn of the Crossroads, that could actually explain Brandon's trip to KL, as we see a current-day example of misleading information being given out at the Inn: Catelyn and Ser Rodrik when they take Tyrion captive. They made a show of announcing to all present that they would be returning Tyrion to WF (via Kingsroad) when in fact they were taking the High Road to the Eyrie. I have postulated before that something gave Brandon the impression that Rhaegar was headed to KL - that something could be a party )or part of a party) taking the Kingsroad south from the Inn.

2) Rhaegar's journey to the Riverlands - could he have been seeking out Howland Reed for info on his trip to the Isle of Faces? If they headed north to the Neck while the rest of the party went south, it could explain the directionality issue and Rhaegar's MIAness for the early part of RR. After all, Greywater Watch moves, and there are no ravens. If Rhaegar was looking for way to hook up with a place/legend/person connected to the CoTF that delivered his PtwP prophecy, or find out more about it, Howland Reed would be that way. Lyanna of course knows Howland, and Howland owes her a debt due to the KotLT incident. If they visited Howland for Rhaegar to glean info on his prophecy, Howland may have been told about/figured out the end game, or at least the "where" of the end game, related to Rhaegar's quest.

3) Viserys being the Aerys' named heir - if Vis was considered the heir upon Rhaegar's death while Rhaegar's children were still alive, it makes me think Aerys had some suspicions about DORNE making an attempt to force THEIR laws of succession....meaning Rhaenys would take the throne and usurp the male line of Targaryen, effectively giving power to the Martells. Sounds like Aerys wanted to shut down what was gearing up to be a big Dornish power play....an idea that Rhae Rhae may have been stewing on for his intended council.

[Ygrain]

I mean, Ned couldn't have known everything.

Yeah but the reason why they were at ToJ when he arrived must have been in concord with his idea of honour and what it meant to be a shining example of KG.

[Ingelheim]

Yeah but the reason why they were at ToJ when he arrived must have been in concord with his idea of honour and what it meant to be a shining example of KG.

Sure, and that idea is kept if Lyanna married Rhaegar, which is highly likely.

[Pigeon Pie]

How would she be politically involved with Rhaegar? Aerys was trying to disinherit Rhaegar before the Tourney at Harrenhal, right?

If, like I suggested, their marriage was political (they must have fallen in love at one point, or Rhaegar wouldn't die with her name on his lips) and the reason she escaped with him was not to have a conquest with a married, older prince but because she supported his political cause.

[Ingelheim]

If, like I suggested, their marriage was political (they must have fallen in love at one point, or Rhaegar wouldn't die with her name on his lips) and the reason she escaped with him was not to have a conquest with a married, older prince but because she supported his political cause.

I still have to see the connection. Rhaegar named her Queen of Beauty and everything far before she could have ever talked to him. So, at least, Rhaegar was really into her before any kind of political move could have been done.

Now, if what you suggest is that she wanted to marry Rhaegar because she wanted the North to support him, well, that could work. Of course, that would have never worked in reality (Rhaegar being married to Elia, Lyanna being 4th in line as Rickard's heir, etc), but I can believe that stuff from a 15 year old girl.

[BearQueen87]

If, like I suggested, their marriage was political (they must have fallen in love at one point, or Rhaegar wouldn't die with her name on his lips) and the reason she escaped with him was not to have a conquest with a married, older prince but because she supported his political cause.

So are you suggesting that it was just coincidence that they ran into each other near HH? And then struck up a political deal to marry--ally the north and the south?

My issue with this the narrator himself. He doesn't know everything that's going on. He wouldn't know if there were communications between L and R after HH. He wouldn't know about Rhaegar's prophetic ideas involving TPTWP. So the narrator is chalking it all up to politics because he's not in the know.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I see this:

1-Lyanna tells Ned she married Rhaegar. Thus, Jon is Rhaegar's rightful heir, not Viserys.

2-That doesn't mean the KG weren't trying to overthrow Aerys. It just means Ned didn't know it.

I mean, Ned couldn't have known everything.

I thought the point of the conspiracy was to explain that Jon did not have to be legit to explain the KG staying at ToJ rather than going to Viserys. So for anyone for whom that was the point, I was countering that point. So if the point of the conspiracy--from a literary point of view--is not to explain that a bastard Jon is consistent with KG at ToJ, then what is the point of the conspiracy? What would be the point of having it turn out that Hightower was in such a conspiracy when it came to nothing and is not necessary to explain any actions? In a piece of fiction like this, I don't think a plot point like that gets introduced just as a curiosity. It would have to affect the action in some way, and with Jon as legit, I don't see how it becomes relevant to the action.

[J. Stargaryen]

Also, perhaps Lyanna's stay at Harrenhal was extended... :) Purposively!

I think I was the first who, way way back when, argued that Lyanna must have been at Harrenhal, based on the various details. It's not 100% certain yet that she had been a guest there of the Whents, remaining there following the tourney until Brandon and the wedding party came by from the North on their way to Riverrun, but I'm pretty sure that's the case. It just fits.

If Lyanna and Rhaegar hooked up together and made plans at Harrenhal - perhaps after the coronation, they would talked to each other first - then she might have insisted to stay at Harrenhal with the Whents. Considering the strong will, that's easily imaginable, especially if she had made friends there.

If the old speculation about Lyanna staying at HH following the tourney is true, I would assume Rhaegar arranged that. As the likely "shadow host" of the HH tourney, the Whents had already allowed Rhaegar to use their House and castle as a cover for his tournament.

It's the perfect place for her, since Rhaegar has a good relationship with the Whents. Possible bonus points for the extent of the good relations being at least secret-ish. That way Lyanna could guest there without an obvious link to Rhaegar, even though HH was effectively "Rhaegar's territory" at the time.

[Ingelheim]

I thought the point of the conspiracy was to explain that Jon did not have to be legit to explain the KG staying at ToJ rather than going to Viserys. So for anyone for whom that was the point, I was countering that point. So if the point of the conspiracy--from a literary point of view--is not to explain that a bastard Jon is consistent with KG at ToJ, then what is the point of the conspiracy? What would be the point of having it turn out that Hightower was in such a conspiracy when it came to nothing and is not necessary to explain any actions? In a piece of fiction like this, I don't think a plot point like that gets introduced just as a curiosity. It would have to affect the action in some way, and with Jon as legit, I don't see how it becomes relevant to the action.

The timeline.

They could have been plotting againts Aerys far before Lyanna got pregnant. Hell, they could have been doing that far before Rhaegar even met Lyanna. If we use the timeline, Varys warned Aerys before the Tourney at Harrenhal happened. So this would be year 281.

ETA: What I mean is...there's a point with the KG plotting against the King even if Jon is legit. There's additional reason for them not to go with Viserys.

[UnmaskedLurker]

The timeline.

They could have been plotting againts Aerys far before Lyanna got pregnant. Hell, they could have been doing that far before Rhaegar even met Lyanna. If we use the timeline, Varys warned Aerys before the Tourney at Harrenhal happened. So this would be year 281.

ETA: What I mean is...there's a point with the KG plotting against the King even if Jon is legit. There's additional reason for them not to go with Viserys.

But no need to theorize that 5 of 7 KG were continuing to conspire to overthrow Aerys and considered Rhaegar to be king up to his death. Rather, we have evidence that Rhaegar wanted to make changes--presumably peacefully through a GC. For that to happen, he needed support from high lords, not KG. I just don't see how the KG ignoring their duties and treating Rhaegar as king is necessary or useful to the plot.

[Pigeon Pie]

I still have to see the connection. Rhaegar named her Queen of Beauty and everything far before she could have ever talked to him. So, at least, Rhaegar was really into her before any kind of political move could have been done.

Now, if what you suggest is that she wanted to marry Rhaegar because she wanted the North to support him, well, that could work. Of course, that would have never worked in reality (Rhaegar being married to Elia, Lyanna being 4th in line as Rickard's heir, etc), but I can believe that stuff from a 15 year old girl.

He was attracted to her indeed, but that alone is not enough to escape with her/kidnap her against sense. But, if she had suggested that by marrying her he guarantees the Starks supporting him against Aerys (yes, this is what I was suggesting) then he'd see the sense there is to it.

So are you suggesting that it was just coincidence that they ran into each other near HH? And then struck up a political deal to marry--ally the north and the south?

My issue with this the narrator himself. He doesn't know everything that's going on. He wouldn't know if there were communications between L and R after HH. He wouldn't know about Rhaegar's prophetic ideas involving TPTWP. So the narrator is chalking it all up to politics because he's not in the know.

I think it was a step-by-step thing to Rhaegar. The time will come when he/his kin would save Westeros later, but first, he has to set aside his pyromaniac father and his fanboys and in order to do so, he has to play the game of thrones. that's why he was more political than we'd thought (myself included, I admit- never thought Rhaegar was actually up to political shit, I just thought he wanted to be left alone to plan the defenses against the apocalypse).

As for how they met near HH, it could be a coincidence or previously planned meeting, but I have yet to understand what Lyanna was doing there/how she was allowed to travel, if it was planned. Rhaegar could have been traveling to meet with new allies, but what about her?

[Ingelheim]

But no need to theorize that 5 of 7 KG were continuing to conspire to overthrow Aerys and considered Rhaegar to be king up to his death. Rather, we have evidence that Rhaegar wanted to make changes--presumably peacefully through a GC. For that to happen, he needed support from high lords, not KG. I just don't see how the KG ignoring their duties and treating Rhaegar as king is necessary or useful to the plot.

It could be very well not necessary to the plot.

We have inconsistencies here. The first one, Ned thinking of Dayne as he did.

To answer this, we have:

-Ned did not know the KG were plotting against Aerys. Highly unlikely if you ask me

-Ned did know that through Lyanna's words, but since Jon is legit, the KG kept their vows till the very end. Still, Ned wouldn't think of them as he did, since they would have been plotting againt Aerys far before Jon was born. They would be players, and Ned didn't like players.

-Ned did know everything, and Jon was not legit. Still, he hated Aerys so much he thought of them as good Knights.

Which one do we choose?

[Pigeon Pie]

If the old speculation about Lyanna staying at HH following the tourney is true, I would assume Rhaegar arranged that. As the likely "shadow host" of the HH tourney, the Whents had already allowed Rhaegar to use their House and castle as a cover for his tournament.

It's the perfect place for her, since Rhaegar has a good relationship with the Whents. Possible bonus points for the extent of the good relations being at least secret-ish. That way Lyanna could guest there without an obvious link to Rhaegar, even though HH was effectively "Rhaegar's territory" at the time.

Good theory! Pretty plausible.

[BearQueen87]

He was attracted to her indeed, but that alone is not enough to escape with her/kidnap her against sense. But, if she had suggested that by marrying her he guarantees the Starks supporting him against Aerys (yes, this is what I was suggesting) then he'd see the sense there is to it.

I think it was a step-by-step thing to Rhaegar. The time will come when he/his kin would save Westeros later, but first, he has to set aside his pyromaniac father and his fanboys and in order to do so, he has to play the game of thrones. that's why he was more political than we'd thought (myself included, I admit- never thought Rhaegar was actually up to political shit, I just thought he wanted to be left alone to plan the defenses against the apocalypse).

As for how they met near HH, it could be a coincidence or previously planned meeting, but I have yet to understand what Lyanna was doing there/how she was allowed to travel, if it was planned. Rhaegar could have been traveling to meet with new allies, but what about her?

As for Lyanna, I've always though that Rickard made her stay at HH for "refinement" like Cat thinks about Arya being the south--it will refine her into a proper lady. Rickard had those southron ambitions and a daughter who ...did not, lol. So force her to be amongst an old southern family and hopefully she learns.

[UnmaskedLurker]

It could be very well not necessary to the plot.

We have inconsistencies here. The first one, Ned thinking of Dayne as he did.

To answer this, we have:

-Ned did not know the KG were plotting against Aerys. Highly unlikely if you ask me

-Ned did know that through Lyanna's words, but since Jon is legit, the KG kept their vows till the very end. Still, Ned wouldn't think of them as he did, since they would have been plotting againt Aerys far before Jon was born. They would be players, and Ned didn't like players.

-Ned did know everything, and Jon was not legit. Still, he hated Aerys so much he thought of them as good Knights.

Which one do we choose?

Your alternatives ignore my basic point (although I find your second and third alternative virtually impossible--we know Ned to well for those to be realistic alternatives). My basic point is that GRRM would not add such a "twist" if it served no purpose to the plot. You have not suggested what purpose it would serve to the plot. If it serves no purpose, GRRM would not bother to make it happen. It is too big an issue to just add as an interesting side point. Either it is important in some way to explain some action critical to the plot--or it did not happen at all.