[TWOIAF Spoiler] Targaryen Lineage

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

No No No, it did not Aemma Targaryen wed Viserys I, whom was the parents of Rheanyra Targaryen! That's for starters, she went on the have 5 sons and one daughter. The first three sons were killed and died in the War of the dragons. The other 2 sons would go on the reign as Aegon III and Viserys II. Both had sons that sat the throne. Daeron I and Baelor I were both Rheanyra's grandsons by Aegon III dragonbane. Aegon IV and his son Daeron II both ruled as the grandsons of Viserys II. Still with me? The Stark/Arryn bloodline has not died out. As Daeron II wed the Martell, his sons Maeker and Aenys II both ruled and Meaker remember him was the father of Aegon V and we know what happened after that right. The Targs have a drop of wolf blood just like the Starks have a drop of dragon blood.

Are we talking that a Stark girl married into House Blackwood, and a Blackwood later married a Targaryen? Because without knowing exactly how all the Blackwoods involved are related, it can't be said with any certainty that one descended from the other. ;)

The world book said that he was pushed through the moon door nothing about his sons.

Quote: Sadly, Lord Ronnel later died a violent death at the hands of his brother Jonon, Kinslayer, but the arryn line continued throught a kinsman and has remained deeply involved in may of the great matters of the seven kingdoms."

Says nothing about any sons being pushed through the moon door.

Your quote states that the line continued through a kinsman. Had it been a son, it would have stated son. This quote shows that it was not.

However, luckily, from this chapter, we have more info. Most detailed notes from the Fire and Blood reading, regarding the reigns of Aegon I and Aenys I, including the death of Ronnel Arryn and his line.

Jonos Arryn, the younger brother of Ronnel Arryn, took his brother and his family captive in the Eyrie. At first, Aenys intended to send Lord Alyn with a strong fleet to the Vale, but then he rescended that order and commanded him to hunt for the Vulture King with way too few men. In the Vale, Lord Royce took matters in his own hands, and started to besiege the Eyrie. But this only led to the execution of Lord Ronnel and his family via the moon door.

Maegor eventually saved the day on Balerion. Jonos is moondoored as well, the other traitorous rebels are all hanged.

Hubert Arryn, a cousin of Ronnel and Jonos, continues the Arryn line. He has six children by his Royce wife.

So, there you see, it wasn't a son of Ronnel, nor a brother, who continued House Arryn. It was a cousin. So no Stark/Arryn line to continue House Arryn. House Arryn was continued by Hubert Arryn and his children by his Royce wife. Aemma Arryn, and her farther Rodrik, descent from him.

Please point me to where it says her line. Because Rodrick Arryn definitely wed Daella Targaryen. So I'd like to see a quote because the family tree and passage from the world book definitely shows and states that it was the father not the sons that died. There was a queen a long time ago that saw her entire line, husband, father,brothers and sons died and she didn't cry and the gods said that until her tears reached the valley floor below the Eryie she would know no peace and her waterfall the spray from the water turns to mist by the time it reaches the bottom floor maybe that's what your thinking about.

I never said that Rodrik didn't marry Daella. It is specifically stated that he did. As I showed above, both Ronnel and his sons (and brother Jonos) died. The family tree does not show anyone's death, I don't know why you say that?

I was not thinking about Lady Alyssa Arryn :)

[Colonel Green]

A Penrose-Martell match is also a possibility, although it would have to occur after 184 AC as Aegon IV did try to turn the Marcher Lords against the Dornishmen, and most likely would not give his consent to such a match (nor does it seem likely that Maron would want to marry another sisters into the Targaryen Realm prior to the union between KL and Sunspear).

I don't think Aegon's consent would be required for such a match, though I agree it's rather dubious that Maron would want to make one.

I was thinking, though, if somebody else in the Penrose family was married to a Martell, that might explain why Daeron appointed Ronnel to the Small Council for a job he wasn't qualified for, and made him a marriage with the royal family, if it was meant as a gesture of goodwill to House Martell.

[Veltigar]

Was Ronnel already MoC when he married Elaene? I'm a bit hazy aboutthe dates, but I always assumed that Daeron intended for Elaene to carry out the duties of MoC and that's why he appointed her husband.

[Colonel Green]

Was Ronnel already MoC when he married Elaene? I'm a bit hazy aboutthe dates, but I always assumed that Daeron intended for Elaene to carry out the duties of MoC and that's why he appointed her husband.

TWOIAF says "Daeron wed her to his master of coin", which suggests he already had the job.

[Lord Varys]

Well, if we go down the 'distant cousin' possibility, lets do that properly:

Presupposition 1: My previous assumption that the Dondarrion/Arryn/Penrose/Dayne matches of the sons of Daeron II suggest that Daeron II and Mariah were reluctant to continue the Targaryen incest is wrong. Daeron's sons were not married to sisters or aunts because they did not have any close female relatives. Everything they had were some distant cousins through the lines of Baela and Rhaena (possibly Daena as well, if she was married before her death - she could have died in childbirth, although perhaps the child did not survive, either).

Presupposition 2: Not only Aerys I was married to a cousin, but Baelor, Rhaegel, and Maekar as well (or at least some of them).

Wild speculation:

We have six Targaryen-Hightowers from Rhaena and Garmund Hightower, and an unspecified number of children from Alyn Velaryon and Baela.

We have no idea who Garmund Hightower fits in the Hightower family. We know that Lord Ormund Hightower had some sons back in Oldtown when he died, but the MUSH appendix of House Hightower does not list Garmund. The Lord listed there is one Lyonel Hightower, born in 114 AC, and thus still somewhat young in 130 when his presumed father, Lord Ormund died. The fact that the names Garmund und Ormund sound somewhat alike could suggests that they are father and son.

Lord Lyonel's siblings are Arana, Lynesse, Martyn, Stafford, and Bethany (Arana and Lynesse are older, Martyn, Stafford, and Bethany younger, the last is born in 120 AC).

The MUSH also lists one Samantha 'Sam' Tarly as Lyonel's wife, former stepmother, and former paramour. If we assume that the MUSH only listed Lord Lyonel's full siblings, that is, all the children Lord Ormund had with his first wife, then Garmund could be a son of Samantha Tarly and Lord Ormund.

Although the whole 'Sam idea' seems curious in the light of the fact that the Tarlys fought against House Hightower during the Dance. We also know for a certainty that Ormund died at Tumbleton, making it impossible for Ormund to father Garmund after the Dance.

Anyway, if we go with the MUSH, then Rhaena Targaryen was not married to the Lord nor to the heir to Oldtown, but to a Hightower from a cadet branch. Of their six daughters - or the unknown number of granddaughters - any could have married into Houses Arryn, Penrose, or Dondarrion. In fact, Leslyn Dondarrion (born 155 AC) and Ronnel Arryn (born 162 AC) could be young enough to marry a granddaughter of Rhaena or Baela.

Nothing on House Penrose, though. I'd assume that both Targaryen-Velaryons and Targaryen-Hightowers would only be married to a members of the main branches of those houses (perhaps with the exception of Rhaena's younger daughters).

Nothing on House Penrose, though.

[the conquering bastard 25]

That's not true that if it had been a son that it would have said son and not kinsmen. GRRM is know for his wordplay and being dubious when writting or telling of different things.

Once again where does it specifically say that the sons died as well. I have failed to see you provided that little tidbit of a quote. The fact that Cregan Stark would side with Rheanyra is second cousin makes more sense especially as she's the female claimant. I have yet to see in the stark family tree where there was a queen or lady that ruled in their own right and not because of their husband or because they are acting regent which is different as they are ruling not in their name but their husband or son's name. The only thing that I can think of why Cregan Stark would go against tradition and the way things are run in the north about succession unless Rheanyra was his cousin through his other cousin Rodrick Arryn. The reason that I think that you are saying that all of her family was killed or pushed through the moon door when the only person that went flying was her husband Ronnel Arryn.

Just like unless you are the careful reader that I know you are most would not pick up that Alys Rivers(the paramour we met in The Princess and the Queen was a bastard and pregnant at the time of her lovers died.) She's got the flowing black hair of the Blackwoods, similar to another Blackwood ancestor we met though Bran and his tree visions. A pregnant woman heavy with child knelt and prayed before the Heart tree at winterfell and asked for vengence. Given that this is more than like Melethena Blackwood asking for vengence and the birth of a son for her fallen lord William Stark. Her son Edwyle Stark was born after that. But back to Alys Rivers, given that the blackwoods fought for the queen and suffered a heavy toll on their family tree, the regents most that would have fought on the side of the blacks as well, most likely legitmitzed her and her offspring. This offsprings offspring in later generation more than likely married back into the Blackwood family tree before Bloodraven was born. Giving Bloodraven Targ blood on both sides of the family tree.

Does this mean that a daughter could not have survived? I can understand them killing all of the males because under andalos law they would have the better claim and then wedding said daughter to his own offspring, making the marriage of first cousins and not likely to offened the faith. This daughter(of Ronnel and his stark wife) wed a son of the Royce/Arryn offspring and produce Rodrick Arryn. Like I said up post it makes sense that this Rodrick Arryn whom wed said Daella Targayen to produce Aemma Targayen wife to Viserys I. The most telling thing about this is the name of said Arryn male, Rodrick. Which is the name of a very famous Stark King and whom has been mentioned in Dance and the World book.

So if the Targ's don't have any Stark blood please explain why from the very beginning from the GC of 101 to when fighting broke out between Aegon II and his sister Rheanyra the Starks fought for Rheanyra's and not Aegon II given that he was the male and should have had a better claim based upon First Man and Andals tradition? The two parties Rheanyra's blacks and Cregan Stark even made a pact that would give the Starks a Targ princess, yeah to reward their loyalty but also to strenthen their blood ties. The Vales motivation for siding with the female claim beyond the famila ties is that of Jeyne Arryn ruling and her rights might be called into question. Rheanys the queen whom never was thought that the Baratheons would side with them as well because of the blood tie that existed between her and the Baratheons and his father had sided with the female claim as well.

It's been made clear that the Starks could have stayed out of the war as both the Greens and the Blacks figured any help coming from the starks would be to late in arrival. While its also been made abundatly clear that the Starks and North before the Dance stayed out of the politics of the realm as it didn't affect them or influence their lives. That hell the north was even threating to go into rebellion after Torrehn Stark knelt. That the North and it's bannerman really didn't want anything to do with the IT or Targaryen politics. Hell even after the Dance the North still didn't really play a major part in the realm beyond it's own borders. So what made Cregan decide not to stay within his own borders and it's not because Jace Velyron asked nicely.

[HexMachina]

I thought it was clear that the North joined the War to dispose of empty mouths. Much like the "hunting" men of the mountains. That they were supposed to get a Targaryen Princess was an added bonus to them, besides which they had backed Rhaenys' claim during the reign of Jaehaerys (supposedly due to discontent with Jaehaerys and Alysanne) so it makes sense to back the female again. Besides which, they had possibly already sworn to Rhaenyra when so many others did during Viserys reign, and decided to honour that oath.

Also, I still don't see how you get Alys Rivers as a Blackwood. If that was the case, it would be mentioned in the books. And you seem to be implying she fought for the Blacks, but she in fact supported the Greens and carried Aemond's child. It is made quite clear that she supported the Greens.

Now, if I understand you correctly, you are suggesting she is Black Aly Blackwood? If so, that makes no sense. As pointed out before, Cregan did not wish to pardon any Greens at all, so there is no chance that he would take a former Green as his wife. This whole idea of Alys Rivers as Blackwood is actually quite baffling to me.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

That's not true that if it had been a son that it would have said son and not kinsmen. GRRM is know for his wordplay and being dubious when writting or telling of different things.

Once again where does it specifically say that the sons died as well. I have failed to see you provided that little tidbit of a quote.

I provided the quite showing that Ronnels cousin inherited the Vale above. I suggest you reread that answer of mine.

So if the Targ's don't have any Stark blood please explain why from the very beginning from the GC of 101 to when fighting broke out between Aegon II and his sister Rheanyra the Starks fought for Rheanyra's and not Aegon II given that he was the male and should have had a better claim based upon First Man and Andals tradition? The two parties Rheanyra's blacks and Cregan Stark even made a pact that would give the Starks a Targ princess, yeah to reward their loyalty but also to strenthen their blood ties. The Vales motivation for siding with the female claim beyond the famila ties is that of Jeyne Arryn ruling and her rights might be called into question. Rheanys the queen whom never was thought that the Baratheons would side with them as well because of the blood tie that existed between her and the Baratheons and his father had sided with the female claim as well.

[...]

So what made Cregan decide not to stay within his own borders and it's not because Jace Velyron asked nicely.

Lord don't only fight for people they are related to. Cregan was promised a Targaryen marriage (I assume for his son, who was born around that time, though it is not specifically stated for who the marriage was), as signed in the Pact of Ice and Fire. That would gain him influence, and it isn't unthinkable that he asked for other stuff as well (changed taxes, for example).

I only mean.. Borros Baratheon was related to Rhaenyra and her children through two lines, yet he fought against her. Being related, whether close or distant, does not automatically mean that they will give support.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Just like unless you are the careful reader that I know you are most would not pick up that Alys Rivers(the paramour we met in The Princess and the Queen was a bastard and pregnant at the time of her lovers died.) She's got the flowing black hair of the Blackwoods, similar to another Blackwood ancestor we met though Bran and his tree visions. A pregnant woman heavy with child knelt and prayed before the Heart tree at winterfell and asked for vengence. Given that this is more than like Melethena Blackwood asking for vengence and the birth of a son for her fallen lord William Stark. Her son Edwyle Stark was born after that. But back to Alys Rivers, given that the blackwoods fought for the queen and suffered a heavy toll on their family tree, the regents most that would have fought on the side of the blacks as well, most likely legitmitzed her and her offspring. This offsprings offspring in later generation more than likely married back into the Blackwood family tree before Bloodraven was born.

This is pure crackpot territory. There is absolutely no reason to connect Alys Rivers with the Blackwoods. Alys Rivers was involved with Aemond, who was on the Greens side. The Blackwoods were firmly on the Blacks side, and Black Aly was part of the group that defeated Borros and his men, who were Greens. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to assume that Alys Rivers is the same person as Alysanne Blackwood. There is no reason to believe that Alysanne Blackwood is anyone other than who we're told she is, and she is in fact Benjicot Blackwood's sister. Alys Rivers was probably busy being pregnant, and a completely different person, when the Riverlords marched down the Kingsroad and Aly Blackwood led the Riverlords' archers against Borros Baratheon's host

[Colonel Green]

That's not true that if it had been a son that it would have said son and not kinsmen. GRRM is know for his wordplay and being dubious when writting or telling of different things.

Once again where does it specifically say that the sons died as well.

It says the sons died because the Eyrie went to Ronnel's cousin Hubert.

[The hairy bear]

Lord Varys,

Your suggestion that the Dondarrion/Arryn/Penrose/Dayne matches of Daeron II's sons are, in fact, marriages with Targaryen collateral branches is interesting. Rhaena's six Hightower** daughters early on make for a lot of potential options.

In fact, rearding the Penrose branch, I much prefer the idea of having them descend from the Rhaena+Garmund Hightower branch rather than from another bastard of Aegon IV. I don't think Fireball would have cared for Lady Penrose if she was Bloodraven's sister.

**Btw, Have we already discussed how a black princess (and Daemon's daughter, at that) ended marrying a Hightower? I can see it as a move to bring back the Hightowers into the realm, but wasn't Rhaena at that pount the only living dragonrider? It seems like a huge risk, and also somehow unfair to many of the black loyalist houses.

[Maia]

*Btw, Have we already discussed how a black princess (and Daemon's daughter, at that) ended marrying a Hightower? I can see it as a move to bring back the Hightowers into the realm, but wasn't Rhaena at that pount the only living dragonrider? It seems like a huge risk, and also somehow unfair to many of the black loyalist houses.

Well, maybe this marriage only happened after Munkun had managed to dispose of her dragon? But it is still very weird that not only was she married to a Hightower, but that this Garmund seemingly was neither Lord, nor heir. I mean, MUSH is not canonical, but Elio and Linda did update stuff to be the same as the official WOIAF canon, whenever possible and Garmund is nowhere to be seen in the family tree there.

And, BTW, I was disappointed to learn that Aegon III was only close to Viserys in his later life, and not to his sisters, and that they seemingly played no role in his reign after the clever plot to save their grandfather from Cregan. So many missed opportunities to have potentially interesting women play important roles in Westerosi history...

[Ran]

Not really true, since they also arranged his marriage. And there are other things which couldn't really fit into the book. That's for Fire and Blood.

[Lord Annaly]

the conquering bastard 25

So if the Targ's don't have any Stark blood please explain why from the very beginning from the GC of 101 to when fighting broke out between Aegon II and his sister Rheanyra the Starks fought for Rheanyra's and not Aegon II given that he was the male and should have had a better claim based upon First Man and Andals tradition?

In the World Book we are in fact given a logical reason for the Starks to first support Princess Rhaenys, the Queen Who Never Was and then Princess Rhaenryra, simply because Lord Stark was pissed with King Jaerherys over the forced donation of the New Gift to the Watch.

He chose the side that was in opposition to the Old King.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

**Btw, Have we already discussed how a black princess (and Daemon's daughter, at that) ended marrying a Hightower? I can see it as a move to bring back the Hightowers into the realm, but wasn't Rhaena at that pount the only living dragonrider? It seems like a huge risk, and also somehow unfair to many of the black loyalist houses.

Perhaps the marriage only took place after Rhaena's dragon had died?

[Lord Varys]

An idea I tossed around elsewhere is that Rhaena was the Targaryen girl Jace originally promised Lord Cregan (I guess the time line would allow the news of Luke's death to reach Winterfell before Jace arrived - or left - the castle, considering that he first visited the Vale and White Harbor, whereas Luke only flew to Storm's End), and that she was only married to Corwyn Corbray after the end of the Dance when Lord Cregan chose Black Aly Blackwood instead.

The Garmund-Rhaena marriage clearly looks like some fucked up arranged marriage thing the regents came up with after Corwyn's death.

An idea I had is that Morning was poisoned/died in Oldtown, if Garmund and Rhaena lived later there rather than at court.

We should also consider the possibility that House Toland got some dragon blood through House Dayne. If Baela's or Rhaena's children married into that house. A Velaryon-Dayne match could be possible in the aftermath of the hostage situation following Daeron's Conquest of Dorne. And then there is also the fact that Alyn Velaryon apparently spent quite some time in Sunspear before that, anyway...

But there are some hints that Baela and Rhaena clearly pulled some strings behind the scenes during the Regency.

Speaking about that:

Ran, can you give us any details on the (hopefully) slow and painful death of Lord Unwin Peake? We know that he fell from grace, but not what ultimately happened to him. Normally a fall from such a height usually goes all the way down...

[Colonel Green]

An idea I had is that Morning was poisoned/died in Oldtown, if Garmund and Rhaena lived later there rather than at court.

I tend to doubt that the only remaining Targaryen dragon would be allowed to be stationed in Oldtown.

[The hairy bear]

I tend to doubt that the only remaining Targaryen dragon would be allowed to be stationed in Oldtown.

Agreed.

Corbray died in 135, so the regency after his death was in Lord Thaddeus Rowan's hands. Rowan had been the leather of the black forces of the Reach during the war. It doesn't make any sense for him to deliver the only Targaryen dragon to his enemies.

Perhaps the marriage only took place after Rhaena's dragon had died?

It would make more sense. But then... I suspect that Morning has to be the last dragon that Arlan of Pennytree saw in King's Landing during the reign of Aegon III when he was a little boy. (around 155). By then Rhaena would be around 39. Too old to marry and have six children.

If you assume that Morning died young and wasn't Arlan's dragon, one wonders... which dragons were the "parents" of Arlan's? Cannibal stayed in Dragonstone, Silverwing retreated to the Red Lake, and Sheepstealer stayed hidden in the Mountains.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

It would make more sense. But then... I suspect that Morning has to be the last dragon that Arlan of Pennytree saw in King's Landing during the reign of Aegon III when he was a little boy. (around 155). By then Rhaena would be around 39. Too old for a first marriage.

If you assume that Morning died young and wasn't Arlan's dragon, one wonders... which dragons were the "parents" of Arlan's? Cannibal stayed in Dragonstone, Silverwing retreated to the Red Lake, and Sheepstealer stayed hidden in the Mountains.

I thought that the Hightower marriage was the second marriage?

The last dragon died in 153AC, and according to D&E, was a small and stunted thing that did not live long, so I'm guessing that it was another dragon that Arlan saw, not Morning.

And there would be dragon eggs left, after all.. So perhaps the last dragon hatched from an egg that came from before the Dance?

[Maia]

It would make more sense. But then... I suspect that Morning has to be the last dragon that Arlan of Pennytree saw in King's Landing during the reign of Aegon III when he was a little boy. (around 155).

I used to think so too, but Ran came in and refuted that notion. I don't remember in which thread, though. Morning was a healthy and well-formed dragon, according to him, just too young to be ridden during the Dance. Also, it seems that there were other dragons that hatched on Dragonstone later in Aegon's reign and the the dragon seen by Arlan was one of those.