[TWOIAF Spoiler] Targaryen Lineage

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Is that confirmed that Aelinor Penrose was a cousin?

Of course that relationship makes sense with the Elaena marriage and the "Ae" name. (Though we also have Frey's with Targ names!)

But a Penrose, even a dragonseed Penrose, is still a "lesser" House for a prince to wed so it still is (kinda) in the same bracket as a Dondarrion bride, as in not a "greater" or more powerful House.

Yeah, it has been confirmed that Aelinor and Aerys were cousins, and also that Aelinor does not descend from Elaena and Ronnel Penrose, which is why I suggested a Hightower daughter of Rhaena married into House Penrose.. it would most likely take two generations to reach Aelinor... if not more..

[Lord Annaly]

Yeah, it has been confirmed that Aelinor and Aerys were cousins, and also that Aelinor does not descend from Elaena and Ronnel Penrose, which is why I suggested a Hightower daughter of Rhaena married into House Penrose.. it would most likely take two generations to reach Aelinor... if not more..

Ah ok , cheers. :cheers:

So despite the distant cousin link the marriage of House Penrose still bears up to my point that at various times some Houses were more powerful or influential than they are now and when a royal match was made it was not that strange.

A royal marriage to a Penrose or a Dondarrion, both ancient lines, is not a big divergence by the contemporary monarch unlike say a marriage to a Baelish or a Clegane, knightly Houses of only 2 or 3 generations since creations.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Ah ok , cheers. :cheers:

So despite the distant cousin link the marriage of House Penrose still bears up to my point that at various times some Houses were more powerful or influential than they are now and when a royal match was made it was not that strange.

A royal marriage to a Penrose or a Dondarrion, both ancient lines, is not a big divergence by the contemporary monarch unlike say a marriage to a Baelish or a Clegane, knightly Houses of only 2 or 3 generations since creations.

Penrose is a major Stormlands house. Say at least 1500 men. Also had lands close to Kings Landing, which could play into it.

Could have already had Targ blood, thanks to the Hightower 5.

Dondarrion were chosen to appease the marcher lords, when the Targaryen's married the Dornish, to appease them.

Mayhaps Swann or Caron didn't have any daughters at that time, or one of them was already married to a Baratheon etc.

A rough rule is great lords marry other great lords, or their own powerful vassals. When great lords marry other great lords trouble is abound. Or when they marry weak lords or commoners (Aegon V's sons).

Targaryen's marry;

Great or Powerful Lords

Other Targaryens

Velaryons

Hightowers

Arryns

Martells

Baratheon

Foreigners or Commoners

Tyanna of Pentos

Larra Rogare

Kiera of Tyrosh

Jenny of Oldstones

Khal Drogo

Hizdhar no Loraq

Mostly rich people of the Free Cities, or people with reported magical abilities

Middle Level Bannermen

Dondarrion

Dayne

Royce

Penrose

Blackwood

Westerling (at the time)

Minor Houses

Manwoody

Plumm

Costayne

Harroway

Lovers

Commoners

Bracken

Blackwood

Strong

Vaith

Stokeworth

Lothson

Norridge

There is a reason for marrying anyone when you are a Targ. Love, power, alliance or loyalty.

[Lord Annaly]

Penrose is a major Stormlands house. Say at least 1500 men. Also had lands close to Kings Landing, which could play into it.

Could have already had Targ blood, thanks to the Hightower 5.

Dondarrion were chosen to appease the marcher lords, when the Targaryen's married the Dornish, to appease them.

Mayhaps Swann or Caron didn't have any daughters at that time, or one of them was already married to a Baratheon etc.

A rough rule is great lords marry other great lords, or their own powerful vassals. When great lords marry other great lords trouble is abound. Or when they marry weak lords or commoners (Aegon V's sons).

Targaryen's marry;

Great or Powerful Lords

Other Targaryens

Velaryons

Hightowers

Arryns

Martells

Baratheon

Foreigners or Commoners

Tyanna of Pentos

Larra Rogare

Kiera of Tyrosh

Jenny of Oldstones

Khal Drogo

Hizdhar no Loraq

Mostly rich people of the Free Cities, or people with reported magical abilities

Middle Level Bannermen

Dondarrion

Dayne

Royce

Penrose

Blackwood

Westerling (at the time)

Minor Houses

Manwoody

Plumm

Costayne

Harroway

Lovers

Commoners

Bracken

Blackwood

Strong

Vaith

Stokeworth

Lothson

Norridge

There is a reason for marrying anyone when you are a Targ. Love, power, alliance or loyalty.

So you are agreeing with me! :) :cool4:

Granted there are different considerations depending on the prince or princess.

The two eldest sons are generally married to a high status and the same for the eldest daughter.

Ther further down the line the sons the more use they are for marriages to what you call "mid-level". (Plus it keeps them from having too powerful of allies if they ever think of usurping their elder brother!)

And princesses...especially those further away from the heir can be married to "lesser" Houses, again very useful to keep those happy or rewarded.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

So you are agreeing with me! :) :cool4:

Granted there are different considerations depending on the prince or princess.

The two eldest sons are generally married to a high status and the same for the eldest daughter.

Ther further down the line the sons the more use they are for marriages to what you call "mid-level". (Plus it keeps them from having too powerful of allies if they ever think of usurping their elder brother!)

And princesses...especially those further away from the heir can be married to "lesser" Houses, again very useful to keep those happy or rewarded.

Yeah!

There is a reason for everything!

And we know why there was a Penrose, Ronnel Penrose was the master of coin. Marrying a member of the small council isn't unheard of. Although I would think that the position is honour enough.

As for Aelinor, could have been love, or because of Targ blood.

[Lord Annaly]

As for Aelinor, could have been love, or because of Targ blood.

Well knowing that family it was probably love because of the Targ blood! :drool:

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Well knowing that family it was probably love because of the Targ blood! :drool:

Maybe!

Sometimes incest is love, sometimes its forced.

Sometimes "keeping the bloodlines pure".

The first few generations and after Aegon V seem to be bombarded with incest.

[Baela of Pentos]

Yeah!

There is a reason for everything!

And we know why there was a Penrose, Ronnel Penrose was the master of coin. Marrying a member of the small council isn't unheard of. Although I would think that the position is honour enough.

As for Aelinor, could have been love, or because of Targ blood.

Aerys I never shared her bed, so clearly not love.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Aerys I never shared her bed, so clearly not love.

Love

Lust

Limerence

Love is not sex.

[complexphoenix]

My guess is that Daella and Dunk eventually marry, Daella dies, Dunk joins the KG, and a daughter of that union is Brienne's grandmother (Daella is Egg's elder sister and the one he was supposed to marry, making it brilliant irony if she instead falls for Dunk). But that's stated nowhere in the text. All we get is that there are recent blood ties between the Tarths and the Targaryens, which honestly only leaves Rhae, Daella, and Maegor, or any of their children.

However Maegor is too young to father the mother of Lord Selwyn, if I'm not mistaken.

The fact that Rhae's husband is not mentioned, is intriguing, too.

And any children of Duncan with Jenny are also not mentioned. Perhaps some/all of them died at Summerhall? I'd find it peculiar if they did not have any children at all. Rhaegar is confirmed to be Egg's first great-grandson, but it is nowhere stated that Aerys and Rhaella were his only grandchildren.

No way Dunk marries a princess. No. Way.

Kindly remember that Dunk is lowborn, originating in Flea Bottom. Yes, he's a knight, but there is no way in hell he would be considered a suitable match for a princess. Look what happened when the peasant girl Jenny of Oldstones married a prince - the prince got disinherited. Sure, Dunk probably schtupped Rohanne Webber, but that was done in secret. Marriage is public. The idea of Dunk marrying one of Egg's sisters is too absurd to consider for even five seconds.

[Manderstark]

No way Dunk marries a princess. No. Way.

Kindly remember that Dunk is lowborn, originating in Flea Bottom. Yes, he's a knight, but there is no way in hell he would be considered a suitable match for a princess. Look what happened when the peasant girl Jenny of Oldstones married a prince - the prince got disinherited. Sure, Dunk probably schtupped Rohanne Webber, but that was done in secret. Marriage is public. The idea of Dunk marrying one of Egg's sisters is too absurd to consider for even five seconds.

It could have been a secret marriage, without Maekar's consent.

[Lord Annaly]

No way Dunk marries a princess. No. Way.

Kindly remember that Dunk is lowborn, originating in Flea Bottom. Yes, he's a knight, but there is no way in hell he would be considered a suitable match for a princess. Look what happened when the peasant girl Jenny of Oldstones married a prince - the prince got disinherited. Sure, Dunk probably schtupped Rohanne Webber, but that was done in secret. Marriage is public. The idea of Dunk marrying one of Egg's sisters is too absurd to consider for even five seconds.

Let's say that Ser Duncan did something of great service for the crown and he was granted a title and lands, and now he is Lord Duncan De Tall of Castle "Arlan" and the princess is so far removed from the line of succession (plus she's female) that unlike the crown prince marrying a commoner that the new noble House of De Tall is suitable or at leat no longer scandalous for a princess to marry. Especially a Lord who is so close to the royal family.

Not saying this is true but there are ways for it to happen.

Also something like this, sans the princess, is how House Tarth has Dunk's blood, he was a new made noble, was able get a noble bride, maybe the sixth daughter of a Lord who was running out of husbands to find and the young bachelor Lord who was very close to the crown was a decent (&apolitical) move and their daughter married a Tarth (an uncle or nephew of Lord Tarth whose own line later died) line ended up inherits Tarth.

[Wmarshal]

It could have been a secret marriage, without Maekar's consent.

I think what is more likely Dunk married a lady of tarth after years of badassery makes him a legend, she dies, Aegon being his homey decides that their lines should join and

Marries said kid to one of his daughters .

[joluoto2]

One interesting thing considering the Targaryen lineage, it's not impossible the line of Aegon the Conqueror went extinct with Maegor the Cruel, if those bad rumors about Rhaenys having lovers and Aenys being a bastard were true. That would indeed be quite ironic.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

I think what is more likely Dunk married a lady of tarth after years of badassery makes him a legend, she dies, Aegon being his homey decides that their lines should join and

Marries said kid to one of his daughters .

Egg had two daughters and we know who both of them married, and both of their husbands outlived Egg.

I agree that we can't assume that Dunk married a princess. There does seem to be a little bit more leeway in who a princess can marry than the crown prince, but I still doubt that a princess marrying someone of common birth would be widely accepted and not considered an issue, regardless of how much said commoner had proven and accomplished. While Maekar might be able to grind his teeth and accept Egg squiring with Dunk, one of his daughters marrying him would be a completely different matter.

Let's also not forget that we're told that Egg's marriage, to the daughter of the lord of an ancient and prestigious house, would've likely received opposition if not for the fact that Egg was far from being heir at the time of his marriage (although it appears that at the time, Maekar was Prince of Dragonstone). Of course, that could be because of religious issues more than anything else, I suppose.

Still, when it comes to resolving the fact that House Tarth has recent ties with House Targaryen with the fact that Dunk's arms are sitting around in Evenfall Hall and it's implied that Brienne's descended from him, the explanation might involve Brienne's mother, who we know nothing about, being a descendant of Dunk

Or maybe an alternate explanation involving one of Egg's sisters. Dunk and the princess had an affair, Maekar found out and promptly married the girl off to a Tarth, Dunk gave her his shield to remember him by but it turns out she may have had something else to remember him by too and no one knew it yet. I'm not sure that Dunk's shield being in the armory at Evenfall Hall necessitates any legitimate descent there.

[complexphoenix]

It could have been a secret marriage, without Maekar's consent.

Egg had two daughters and we know who both of them married, and both of their husbands outlived Egg.

I agree that we can't assume that Dunk married a princess. There does seem to be a little bit more leeway in who a princess can marry than the crown prince, but I still doubt that a princess marrying someone of common birth would be widely accepted and not considered an issue, regardless of how much said commoner had proven and accomplished. While Maekar might be able to grind his teeth and accept Egg squiring with Dunk, one of his daughters marrying him would be a completely different matter.

Let's also not forget that we're told that Egg's marriage, to the daughter of the lord of an ancient and prestigious house, would've likely received opposition if not for the fact that Egg was far from being heir at the time of his marriage (although it appears that at the time, Maekar was Prince of Dragonstone). Of course, that could be because of religious issues more than anything else, I suppose.

Still, when it comes to resolving the fact that House Tarth has recent ties with House Targaryen with the fact that Dunk's arms are sitting around in Evenfall Hall and it's implied that Brienne's descended from him, the explanation might involve Brienne's mother, who we know nothing about, being a descendant of Dunk

Or maybe an alternate explanation involving one of Egg's sisters. Dunk and the princess had an affair, Maekar found out and promptly married the girl off to a Tarth, Dunk gave her his shield to remember him by but it turns out she may have had something else to remember him by too and no one knew it yet. I'm not sure that Dunk's shield being in the armory at Evenfall Hall necessitates any legitimate descent there.

Maekar is very prickly about his pride. If he found out that Dunk had bedded one of his daughters, I have no doubt whatsoever that he would have him killed. He would consider it an unforgivable betrayal of his largesse in entrusting Egg to him. And I don't believe Dunk would betray Maekar's trust like that, either, he's too honorable for that.

In all likelihood, if Brienne is descended from Dunk, it's by way of a secret tryst between Dunk and some Lady of Evenfall Hall, much like his liaison with Lady Rohanne. As for the Tarths having Targaryen blood, I reckon that's probably from an earlier generation, most likely Elaena's Penrose offspring, since the Stormlords marry each other all the time. Vaella and young Maegor are also possibilities. Since Vaella was a lackwit, she'd naturally have to marry a step or two below her station and House Tarth is right around that level.

[Mithras]

The new king had already provided the realm with an heir in the person of his son Rhaegar, born amongst the flames of Summerhall. Aerys and his queen, his sister Rhaella, were young, and it was anticipated that they would have many more children. This was a vital question at the time, for the tragedies of Aegon the Unlikely’s reign had trimmed the noble tree of House Targaryen down to just a pair of lonely branches.

Anyone has an idea about this pair of lonely branches? Are they Aerys and Rhaelle's lines or did Maegor Targaryen or his possible children survive the Summerhal?

[Lord Varys]

Those branches are Aerys-Rhaella-Rhaegar, and Steffon Baratheon and his sons.

On Dunk/Daella:

I really think there could be better arguments to argue against that idea.

It all depends when this marriage occurs. Imagine they marry long before Egg and Betha. Say, Egg spurns Daella and dissolves their betrothal directly after his return to court in 213/4. Then Daella has no future husband, and Maekar would eventually have to make another match for her. Assuming that Maekar wants to continue the practice of Targaryen incest (which was sort of confirmed by the fact that he did betroth Egg to Daella) Daella would then be married to Aerion, I assume, as he is the brother closest in age to Daella who can marry her.

An aspect of this whole thing may also be to prevent Daella's marriage to Aerion after Egg has dissolved the betrothal.

And if we assume that Daella's and Dunk's wedding takes place before the death of Prince Aelor in 217 AC, then Maekar and all his children are still at the very end of the line of succession, and Daella as female is even more removed than Egg. The sort of men Elaena was married to does not suggest that Targaryen females were considered to be that noble to be married only to the noblest bloodlines (although there is a chance that Ronnel Penrose, like Aelinor, had some Targaryen blood).

During the reign of Aerys I Daella and Dunk would also not necessarily need the permission of Maekar. Aerys' permission would suffice. And the idea that Maekar would oppose such match in any case, or try to kill Dunk if he went through with that make not all that much sense to me. Maekar's character was already misjudged by a lot of people who considered it a given that imprisoned Bloodraven for over a decade in the black cells.

The fact that Maekar did apparently not marry anew after Dyanna's early death could be a hint that his own marriage was also a love match, or that he really fell in love with his future wife after he met her. If that was the case, he may actually be not completely opposed to the idea that his children marry for love. After all, he did apparently not oppose the idea of Egg-Betha match, either.

There are also clues in the text of the book that could be interpreted in the sense that Dunk really did first rise in the profane world before he joined the Kingsguard. TMK made it pretty clear that Dunk does not want to become a KG, and since that's the case, we should not go with the possibility that he joins the order rather early. It is much more likely that Dunk first marries, becomes a landed knight/lord, has a family, and then only joins the KG after Aegon V ascends the Iron Throne. The idea that Dunk would be particularly eager to serve in the KG under a King Daeron III or Aerion I - or protect/obey them as princes - is about zero, suggesting that he only joined the KG after Egg ascended to the Iron Throne, and during the reign of Maekar or Aerys I.

It is also very unlikely that both Dunk and the Targaryens married into House Tarth in recent years. Sure, it would be technically possible, but ask yourselves: If you would write a bunch of short stories detailing the life of Dunk, would you really go with the possibility of Daella/Rhae marrying into House Tarth (the Targaryen blood of the Tarths must go back to them, else the 'recent' part of the quote makes way too little sense) and then Dunk making out with a daughter of that union, or the wife of the next Lord Tarth (or marrying a Tarth girl)? In my opinion, that would make for a much less interesting story.

[Lord Annaly]

Maekar may have been a prickly dude back when Egg was a boy and we know he hated and mistrusted Bloodraven yet years later he had a change of heart, maybe even mellowed a bit because he made Bloodraven his Hand.

We always thought he was the one who imprisioned him yet we find out later he did not.

So it is possible that Maekar was much more agreeable to different ideas or such in later years.

And a marriage to a lowborn newly made Lord may not be too big a stretch.

[Lord Varys]

Actually, there is no hint that Maekar himself 'hated or mistrusted' Bloodraven. Egg said to him that the High Septon told Maekar that bastards are traitorous by nature etc., but we have no clue whether Maekar really bought that shit (especially since he fought in the very battle in which Bloodraven proved his loyalty).

It seems that Maekar spoke to the High Septon when dealing with his own grief about the loss of Dyanna. Maekar was just pissed that Aerys favored Bloodraven and chose him instead of Maekar as Hand.