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Lord Knightmare

[TWOIAF Spoilers] Discussions of TWOIAF

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The Maesters aren't sure that the Valyrians built the foundations of the Hightower. It's said that its style is to sober and simple to be Valyrian, and that maybe it's the work of an even older culture. It's also said that its style is similar to that of the Seastone Chair, and that Maester Theron claimed that an old race, the "Deep Ones" built them.

I guess it's in line with the Chulthian kraken sigil and the lovecraftian name Dagon, I guess.

It's a foundation, aren't they supposed to be kind of plain? Also, styles can vary with time or the purpose of the building, which we still don't know.

I'm inclined to think that the technology used is probably more relevant. The whole "liquid stone" thing is a trademark of Valyrian magic, it seems more succinct to me to assume they tried to colonize the West than to assume someone else duplicated their abilities.

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Any chance Rhaegar somehow got hold of Aegon the Conqueror's crown from the Dornish? Or do we think it's lost for good and all?


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Yeah, I will never take this seriously

Well, you should. The laws of war exist, and parties do, in fact, try to follow them. Obviously the track record in this is nowhere near perfect (much like domestic law, for that matter), but the nihilistic idea that war is just people doing anything and everything to win, without regard for rules, is simply not true. Codes regarding prisoners, for instance, have existed for many centuries, and the advent of the Geneva Conventions in the middle of the 19th century brought those into the modern form.

The customs regarding the peace banner (which is akin to GRRM's idea of the guest right) is far, far older, and it's not some pie-in-the-sky principle. It has an entirely practical purpose: to allow the parties to communicate in good faith during wartime. Inviting a party to a conference under the peace banner and then using that as a means to murder them is an absolute violation of a very old and very important piece of customary law.

Many civilizations have only survived to this day by simultaneously conceding to vastly superior powers and forcing them out through brutal guerrilla warfare.

Guerrila warfare is not the same thing as violating pledges of safe conduct. The former is a generally legitimate tactic.

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It's a foundation, aren't they supposed to be kind of plain? Also, styles can vary with time or the purpose of the building, which we still don't know.

The foundations of the Hightower are a castle/fortress on their own. The thing, is, it's a low, square, almost cubic fortress of solid black stone. Efficient, but by far not as fancy as the kind of fortresses the Valyrians built elsewhere (like Dragonstone).

The Hightowers built their lighthouse on top of that building.

I'm inclined to think that the technology used is probably more relevant. The whole "liquid stone" thing is a trademark of Valyrian magic, it seems more succinct to me to assume they tried to colonize the West than to assume someone else duplicated their abilities.

The text implies that somebody maybe crossed the Sunset Sea reached Westeros even before the arrival of the First Men. Those people may have been doing the fused stone thing even before the Valyrians.

The people of Asshai claim that the Valyrians learnt all their trick from them, and the Mazemakers (who are mentioned as possible builders of the foundations of Hightower) were even more ancient than the Valyrians...so maybe the Valyrians learnt their fused rock trick from other people, instead of the opposite.

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And in Aerys' section it mentioned that Tywin had rivals at court. Who would his rivals be unless they are the small counsel but I can't see Tywin having many of any rivals at court.

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And in Aerys' section it mentioned that Tywin had rivals at court. Who would his rivals be unless they are the small counsel but I can't see Tywin having many of any rivals at court.

The part about the Tourney of Harrenhal mentions a few people who are likely candidates. If they dared speak against Rhaegar you can bet they spoke against Tywin too.

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The foundations of the Hightower are a castle/fortress on their own. The thing, is, it's a low, square, almost cubic fortress of solid black stone. Efficient, but by far not as fancy as the kind of fortresses the Valyrians built elsewhere (like Dragonstone).

The Hightowers built their lighthouse on top of that building.

The text implies that somebody maybe crossed the Sunset Sea reached Westeros even before the arrival of the First Men. Those people may have been doing the fused stone thing even before the Valyrians.

The people of Asshai claim that the Valyrians learnt all their trick from them, and the Mazemakers (who are mentioned as possible builders of the foundations of Hightower) were even more ancient than the Valyrians...so maybe the Valyrians learnt their fused rock trick from other people, instead of the opposite.

Ah, I missed that the foundation is a building in its own right. That does lend the idea of origins further east some credence. Hope we get an answer!

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Well, you should. The laws of war exist, and parties do, in fact, try to follow them. Obviously the track record in this is nowhere near perfect (much like domestic law, for that matter), but the nihilistic idea that war is just people doing anything and everything to win, without regard for rules, is simply not true. Codes regarding prisoners, for instance, have existed for many centuries, and the advent of the Geneva Conventions in the middle of the 19th century brought those into the modern form.

The customs regarding the peace banner (which is akin to GRRM's idea of the guest right) is far, far older, and it's not some pie-in-the-sky principle. It has an entirely practical purpose: to allow the parties to communicate in good faith during wartime. Inviting a party to a conference under the peace banner and then using that as a means to murder them is an absolute violation of a very old and very important piece of customary law.

Guerrila warfare is not the same thing as violating pledges of safe conduct. The former is a generally legitimate tactic.

Only in order of magnitude. The principle is the same. This was just a very extreme version based on the Dornish history with the Dragons, reaching back to their days in essos through to recent events that had bled their lands.

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Well, you should. The laws of war exist, and parties do, in fact, try to follow them. Obviously the track record in this is nowhere near perfect (much like domestic law, for that matter), but the nihilistic idea that war is just people doing anything and everything to win, without regard for rules, is simply not true. Codes regarding prisoners, for instance, have existed for many centuries

Yes and these codes get violated and twisted all the time in war, sometimes more discreetly than others.

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Another thing that was all sorts of interesting: the Defiance of Duskendale. I was convinced there was something here before the book even came out, and now I'm even more certain.

For one thing, it gets two whole pages. That's about as much as the Age of Heroes and the Long Night put together.

For another, the timing is firmed up a bit. The Defiance goes down almost immediately after Aerys turns down Tywin's proposal to wed Cersei to Rhaegar. Varys comes on board 2-3 years afterwards, and as a direct result of the Defiance.

Yandel pretty strongly supports the idea that the Defiance was, to at least some extent, Serala's idea. He even has quotes.

Lastly, Tywin was absolutely ready to let the king die. Barristan is the only reason he survived.

...I'm gonna keep pushing this one as my pet theory. TWOIAF makes it look better than ever.

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Look, if you approach a person with diplomacy and not violence, then that person has no real reason to keep hard feelings.

But Daeron I on the other hand first invaded, made live miserable for the Dornish and THEN demanded their surrender. The Dornish commited treachery out of vengeance for the hardships they endured because of the Targs invading them.

When Baelor came to them peacefully, never raising up arms and negotiating with them, it was a completely different story, why in the world would you hold negative feelings against someone like that? He hasn't done anything to your country.

Now we can say 'they broke the laws of war', but codes of conduct get shattered in real life all the time when bitterness, anger and worst of all fear run too deep.

Daeron did, it was a peace banner under the promise of surrender, instead they gut him.

Which they said they would, he traveled under a peace banner. This act could have led to a full on war Dorne would not win. Alyn would just keep smashing them at sea while Reach men rain hell on them.

If Baelor was anyone but himself a hundred terrors Dorne would know.

And because of this many parties would are treated like shit and as such are rooted.

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Just random observations from the few parts I've read so far:

Baby Tyrion's description is remarkably similar to the descriptions of Aerys's other stillborn etc children, which along with the Mad King having a history of such offspring makes you wonder.

A lot of Blackwoods in Stark recent family tree. It would appear Bloodraven and Brandon have more in common than we thought.

The curse of the Kings of the First Men (Ryswells?) about all rivals turning into corpses...

Ghost of the High Heart is a child of the forest.

Casterly Rock is 3x the size of the Wall?! And it definitely has at least one secret passage.

So THAT's why BR was sent to the Wall.

More 'speculation' about dragons at Winterfell.

Rheagar was most definitely up to something at the Harrenhall Tourney.

Good job on making the rains of Castamere both more brutal and less impressive militarily.

Why oh why did Barristan have to go to Duskedale?

WTF happened to Rheanys? I used to be a Visenya fan but now I think I might like Rhaenys better. I really hope the letter wasn't about what's implied.

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Yes and these codes get violated and twisted all the time in war, sometimes more discreetly than others.

The peace banner is very cut-and-dried. You either keep it, or you don't. The Dornish committed a very serious war crime.

Lastly, Tywin was absolutely ready to let the king die. Barristan is the only reason he survived.

Yes, that seems pretty clear from the sequence of events. I'd say that he (reasonably) thought Barristan had no chance in hell of succeeding.

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The peace banner is very cut-and-dried. You either keep it, or you don't. The Dornish committed a very serious war crime.

Commiting a war crime against an invader you wanted dead from the start, oh noes.

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The peace banner is very cut-and-dried. You either keep it, or you don't. The Dornish committed a very serious war crime.

They had to protect their house from tyrants who wanted to take their home awa from them. I see no problem with what they did.

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They had to protect their house from tyrants who wanted to take their home awa from them. I see no problem with what they did.

Then gut him on the road or battle, this was a act of oathbreaking in a great way. Their words became nothing, the SK had no reason to trust their word or make terms ever again.

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Yes and these codes get violated and twisted all the time in war, sometimes more discreetly than others.

So breaking guest right is no big deal?

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Commiting a war crime against an invader you wanted dead from the start, oh noes.

Oh noes indeed, the invader has no reason to hear them out every again and has reason to remove every noblemen and replace them.

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Oh noes indeed, the invader has no reason to hear them out every again and has reason to remove every noblemen and replace them.

We've seen how effective a reputation for ungovernable brutality and betrayal works for the Skaggs, Others, Dothraki, etc. Nobody bothers trying to conquer them because even if you subdue them on the field you'll never rule the land, and the lands themselves aren't of enough value anyway. The dornish plan wasn't to be heard out in court, it was to convince the crown that conquest was not worth the cost of acquisition and maintenance.

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Casterly Rock is 3x the size of the Wall?! And it definitely has at least one secret passage.

Yeah, I'm actually having trouble suspending my disbelief on this one. Casterly Rock is comically huge. Even if most of it is mountain, how do you garrison this thing? If it's two leagues across, it has a circumference at its base of (about) 20 miles, and God knows how much surface area or how many miles of tunnel. You can't possibly defend every potential entrance at once.

And if the attacker knows the internal layout...say, maybe, they were in charge of all the drains and cisterns at one point, this really should be an easy siege.

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