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Lord Knightmare

[TWOIAF Spoilers] Discussions of TWOIAF

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So... Olenna was shunned by the guy who was basically the proto-Renly?

Yep, that's not creepy at all. For a moment my math failed and I even thought Daeron also died at the same age as Renly (around 22) but he should have been ten years older, phew. Wait no, my math is right 51-28 = 23. Gahh! I sure hope there was no shadow baby birthed by Olenna involved.

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Very quick question for this thread, as despite my pre-ordering, Amazon UK says it's unlikely I'm going to get my copy of the book before the beginning of next week :(



Do we have dates for the deaths of the last couple of dragons in the reign of Aegon III?


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Yep, that's not creepy at all. For a moment my math failed and I even thought Daeron also died at the same age as Renly (around 22) but he should have been ten years older, phew. Wait no, my math is right 51-28= 23. Gahh!

I would say more karmic than creepy.

Aerys wanting to build a second wall deep in wildling territory was creepy.

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Aerys wanting to build a second wall deep in wildling territory was creepy.

What? The first one not high enough for him? :rofl:

Sounds very much like Aerys, though.

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I enjoyed reading Aerys' chapter and Robert's Rebellion.



I was hoping for an insight into the Clegane family but I couldn't even find their words.


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There was some good info in it and lots of little tidbits to whet the appetite - like the whole thing with the burned men. That's got to be Nettles and Sheepstealer. There was some good stuff on the Starks, though I have to admit that I thought the section on the North would be more than what it was.



On the whole though, I have to say it was well worth the wait.


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This part was also very interesting

The wealth of the westerlands was matched, in ancient times, with the hunger of the Freehold of Valyria for precious metals, yet there seems no evidence that the dragonlords ever made contact with the lords of the Rock, Casterly or Lannister. Septon Barth speculated on the matter, referring to a Valyrian text that has since been lost, suggesting that the Freehold’s sorcerers foretold that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy them. Archmaester Perestan has put forward a different, more plausible speculation, suggesting that the Valyrians had in ancient days reached as far as Oldtown but suffered some great reverse or tragedy there that caused them to shun all of Westeros thereafter.

Spoiler thread, no tags needed :)

They explain why the Valyrians never conquered Westeros:

In fact, the Valyrians invaded and conquered Dorne and the southern Reach thousands of years ago and founded Oldtown (or consolidated a port already in use by natives of the Reach and traders from the Summer Islands, Ibben and Essos), building the lower level of what is now the High Tower. However, two prophecies were made which drove them from the continent. The first was that the Doom of Man would come from Westeros - the Others? - and that they should not be there. The second was that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy the Valyrians. They chose to leave rather than risk it. The latter seems to be a reference to the betrayal of the Targaryens by Tywin Lannister during Robert's Rebellion.

Nice. Although it's getting a little bit tiresome that every other niggling backstory mystery is being answered with "because of some prophecy hitherto unmentioned".

Also wrt to the seasons:

The book hints that the world used to have regular seasons before the Long Night. There's also a testy maester account of the seasons being unable to be explained by science, and confirmation that the world is round, both of which sound like GRRM trying to head off any future debate on those matters.

The Doom of Valyria:

The books hints that the Faceless Men, the sect which began as slaves toiling beneath the Fourteen Fires, assassinated the Valyrian sorcerers whose job it was to maintain the spells that prevented the volcanoes from exploding. With them dead, the Fourteen Fires went kaboom and blew up the entire peninsula. There's several other possibilities, but this seems the most logical one given what we know from AFFC and the Valyrians' own apparent ignorance that the sorcerous traditions were needed to stop the volcanoes blowing up.

Also, GRRM drops some more Lovecraft references:

According to legend, the Old Ones live under the island of Leng in the Jade Sea and anyone who descends into the tunnels under the island goes insane and dies horribly. The Yi Ti emperors got so fed up with this they walled off all the passages and pretend it never happens. Carcosa is also namedropped as a place where a renegade Yi Ti warlord is building up an army, just to confuse True Detective fans.

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Do we have dates for the deaths of the last couple of dragons in the reign of Aegon III?

No. The matter of the death of the last four dragons in Aegon's reign is only mentioned by passing, without any interesting detail.

Although, on the other hand, there's a very interesting clue about Shepstealer's whereabouts after the war! :)

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Very quick question for this thread, as despite my pre-ordering, Amazon UK says it's unlikely I'm going to get my copy of the book before the beginning of next week :(

Do we have dates for the deaths of the last couple of dragons in the reign of Aegon III?

153AC

ETA:

No. The matter of the death of the last four dragons in Aegon's reign is only mentioned by passing, without any interesting detail.

Although, on the other hand, there's a very interesting clue about Shepstealer's whereabouts after the war! :)

I'd swear I read 153AC.. I can remember thinking "With Prince Daeron born that sane year, there's yet another argument for the Blackfyre Pretenders against Daeron"

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Spoiler thread, no tags needed :)

They explain why the Valyrians never conquered Westeros:

In fact, the Valyrians invaded and conquered Dorne and the southern Reach thousands of years ago and founded Oldtown (or consolidated a port already in use by natives of the Reach and traders from the Summer Islands, Ibben and Essos), building the lower level of what is now the High Tower. However, two prophecies were made which drove them from the continent. The first was that the Doom of Man would come from Westeros - the Others? - and that they should not be there. The second was that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy the Valyrians. They chose to leave rather than risk it. The latter seems to be a reference to the betrayal of the Targaryens by Tywin Lannister during Robert's Rebellion.

Nice. Although it's getting a little bit tiresome that every other niggling backstory mystery is being answered with "because of some prophecy hitherto unmentioned".

If ArchMaester Perestan is to be believed it seems they also suffered some great tragedy - a war against the children of the forest maybe?? Battle Isle had to have gotten its name from some battle, right? I'm guessing the children used their greeseers and wargs to take control of Valyrian dragons. That combined with the prophecies is probably why they were too afraid to ever come back in greater force.

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If ArchMaester Perestan is to be believed it seems they also suffered some great tragedy - a war against the children of the forest maybe?? Battle Isle had to have gotten its name from some battle, right? I'm guessing the children used their greeseers and wargs to take control of Valyrian dragons. That combined with the prophecies is probably why they were too afraid to ever come back in greater force.

Possibly, although the timeline is all over the place. By the traditional timeline, the Valyrians should have shown up a clear 3,000 years after the War for the Dawn and, at the absolute earliest, 1,000 years after the Andal invasion and the last of the Children disappeared. It's possible that the timeline is even more screwed up than we believed, or it happened when it appeared to and there were still human greenseers and wargs in the Oldtown area. Elsewhere it is said that it took ages for the Andal invasion to reach Oldtown because of the ferocity of the opposition.

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Sothoryos is also confirmed to be freaking huge. A Valyrian explorer on dragonback flew south and returned on a trip taking three years and confirmed that the continent goes on and on, and may be as big as Essos. There's also a hint that the Summer Islanders have sailed south along the coast of Sothoryos to the bottom of the world. These both seem to confirm GRRM's suggestion that Sothoryos is as big as Africa.


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Oh God, I know, it actually absolutely means nothing, but I looove the fact that a son of Orys Baratheon was named Davos, so there existed a Davos Baratheon and now exists a Stannis Seaworth, that's my new favourite fact! :bowdown:

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Also wrt to the seasons:

The book hints that the world used to have regular seasons before the Long Night. There's also a testy maester account of the seasons being unable to be explained by science, and confirmation that the world is round, both of which sound like GRRM trying to head off any future debate on those matters.

I've brought this up before, but nobody seemed to care; the first copies of aGoT contain a blurb which states the seasons were thrown out of whack by a preturnatural event, so we already knew they were once regular and that 'something' disrupted them. What I found strange is that the excerpt you're referring to indicates knowledge that the world is round *and* that it revolves around the sun. Impressive.

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Spoiler thread, no tags needed :)

They explain why the Valyrians never conquered Westeros:

In fact, the Valyrians invaded and conquered Dorne and the southern Reach thousands of years ago and founded Oldtown (or consolidated a port already in use by natives of the Reach and traders from the Summer Islands, Ibben and Essos), building the lower level of what is now the High Tower. However, two prophecies were made which drove them from the continent. The first was that the Doom of Man would come from Westeros - the Others? - and that they should not be there. The second was that the gold of Casterly Rock would destroy the Valyrians. They chose to leave rather than risk it. The latter seems to be a reference to the betrayal of the Targaryens by Tywin Lannister during Robert's Rebellion.

Nice. Although it's getting a little bit tiresome that every other niggling backstory mystery is being answered with "because of some prophecy hitherto unmentioned".

I don't see how the 'Gold of Casterly Rock' can relate to Tywin. First it wasn't a betrayal over money. Second, the war was won when Tywin showed up to look supportive to the victor. Thirdly, 'the Valyrians' weren't destroyed, Tywin had the kids killed. Jaimie killed Aerys but Viserys and Dany survived.

Also if we believe that these prophecies are true, the valyrians weren't around for the Long Night. The others haven't shown up since then. If it is still to come to pass, it would seem to hint that Dany would fight a battle she cannot win and shouldn't attempt.

More likely the other theory is true, Valyrians. the empire builders, completely leave Westeros alone because of some prophecies? All of them? Surely some would have taken the risk for power? They have to have been booted out.

1- Perestan says that the Valyrians likely suffered a massive tragedy in Westeros which led to them not returning

2- Brandon Snow carves three weirwood arrows likely to kill Aegon's three dragons (as seen by Brandon Stark)

3- Torrhen bends the knee, the reader never gets to see these arrows in action nor the northern response to the Dragons

4- Targ kids are told about how Jaehaerys I battled Wargs beyond the wall. The Wildings never mention such an event. Likely a Targ nightime story.

5- Dany sees herself fighting a battle against an Army armoured in ice. We assume the Others but the Ice-Fire Pact was a Stark-Targ Pact.

Jon is likely the Obsidian of the Others, frozen fire to destroy them. But I can't see us getting to the end without Ice fighting Fire.

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The best HPL reference is the tidbit about the Bloodstone Emperor starting to worship a black stone from the sky, and historians calling him the first known priest of the Church of Starry Wisdom which is still prominent in many harbor cities around the world.



Not to mention the Ironborn being descended from the Deep Ones. And the people from the Thousand Islands. And the natives from Toad Island.


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House Wyl was already pretty nasty during Aegon's Conquest, what with the chopping off of prisoners' hands (though Orys got his revenge on them in the end), but during the Young Dragon's invasion they, as Smithers put it, crossed the line from everyday villainy to cartoonish supervillainy.


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