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[TWOIAF Spoilers] Discussions of TWOIAF


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Seeing how even in the North he is a boy hero to children and name is in song I don't see how he is not.

Just because he is a boy hero to kids does not mean he is a beloved figure to adults. Jon considers Daeron awesome at the start of GOT, Benjen considers him an utter moron.

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War rarely is, shocking I know

Frey, his son died for Stark and he then, as you magically put breaking a vow, wiped his ass with his promise.

And in war when one does act onsider greatly evil like attacking someone under a peace banner or in your hall, it pisses on any chance someone would want to talk peace with that person and just want to kill them.

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And by the way, oaths sworn under duress don't count at all in my book

Well, you must really approve of Roose Bolton, then. What? Boltons had been brutally subjugated once, and oaths given under duress are meaningless. As are guest rights and peace banners, apparently. "Never wound a man when you can kill him", indeed.

More fool he. He screwed them in a big way and then expected honourable treatment? Pity he wasn't told that war was not played by the rules of tourneys.

Walder Frey agreed with you and acted upon it. No need to feel outraged about it, it seems.

Stuff like peace banners and guestright is sacred in Westeros for a reason. It helps to avoid unnecessary slaughter, it helps to survive their multi-year winters.

And all the top Houses got their spots by brutally conquering and forcing people to swear oaths to them under duress. All of them, including the Martells.

So, yea, pot, kettle, black?

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Just because he is a boy hero to kids does not mean he is a beloved figure to adults. Jon considers Daeron awesome at the start of GOT, Benjen considers him an utter moron.

The fact he is still a boy hero after a hundred years shows his name was rarely sullied. If all adults thought him a fool why would they teach their sons he was a hero?

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This seems to have been the entire underlying problem with this discussion. I tend to fall in your camp.

Welcome to the dark side where quality is over quantity. We have cookies! :cheers:

As did I, I am just astonished how you see war to no end a freedom and talk to end war and gain real freedom as slavery.

I really cannot understand you seriously. And this have been done with only two other posters here all those years I am around. I am very sad to see another member of this group.

You seem to forget that Daeron broke the treaty when he attacked Dorne.

"As did I, I am just astonished how you see war to no end a freedom and talk to end war and gain real freedom as slavery."

She never says anything about finding war without end better than real freedom and she doesn't say that real freedom is slavery. What she's trying to say is that it's better to keep resisting with the hope that the war will end rather than submitting to a guy who may not treat his people as good as Dorne hopes (LONG-TERM, not just short-term).

"I guess he should have killed every dornish he found and expected the worst of them. ou know not respecting at all the things that end wars but instead treated them like dogs needed to be slaughted."

You are saying this like it was the only other course of action.

:bowdown: Thank you! I don't know if my English are so bad that I cannot make someone to understand what I mean.

Keep guessing. I'll say for sure that he should have stayed where he was and not start the war in the first place. Since he started it and didn't end it until he got what he wanted, to Dorne's detriment, I'll also say for sure that he invited everything Dornish people could do to him.

But then, I am just the kind of gal who thinks that once a thief commits a burglary, he cannot pretend that the youngest child in the house who climbed on the wardrobe and pushed an old TV over his head, knocking him out, broke his human rights. Even if the child in question before said, "OK, I'll stay in my room and I'll wait for you to come and talk to me when you're done. You see, I really don't want you to take my Batman pillow. Promise that you won't touch it, and I won't try to call the cops."

Great example!

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I really cannot understand you seriously. And this have been done with only two other posters here all those years I am around. I am very sad to see another member of this group.

You seem to forget that Daeron broke the treaty when he attacked Dorne.

When did he murder a person under a peace banner? When? I stated half hundred times war and rebellion are common, killing someone under a peace banner is not.

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Frey, his son died for Stark and he then, as you magically put breaking a vow, wiped his ass with his promise.

Im gonna explain to you why this is an utterly pathetic argument and why you should never have brought up the Freys.

1. Robb never came to the Freys demanding anything, all he wanted was to cross the bridge. It was Walder Frey who decided to send them his sons and soldiers after Cat negotiated with him for a betrothal. Daeron demanded their submission to his authority.

2. Robb never attacked the Freys and he never even threatened them, Daeron attacked Dorne.

3. Frey is a bannermen to Cat's family, Dorne was never a bannerman to the IT.

4. You are only looking at the peace banner, while you should be looking at why that banner was waved around in the first place.

If Daeron came to Dorne without any weapons and just to talk and then they killed him? I would have agreed with your argument. That is not what happened.

You seem to think that the reason the Freys are so despised on this board is solely because they broke guest right, this is not true, it's because they stabbed their allies in the back.

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The fact he is still a boy hero after a hundred years shows his name was rarely sullied. If all adults thought him a fool why would they teach their sons he was a hero?

No it fucking doesn't. Stalin is a hero in Georgia, go outside Georgia and say that he was the shit.

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When did he murder a person under a peace banner? When? I stated half hundred times war and rebellion are common, killing someone under a peace banner is not.

Did he attacked Dorne when there were a peace treaty or not?

No it fucking doesn't. Stalin is a hero in Georgia, go outside Georgia and say that he was the shit.

Good one. Basil II whose nickname was the Bulgar-slayer was a hero for the Byzantine empire and still is for some people. For some strange reason I don't believe that it was the same for other countries too.

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The fact he is still a boy hero after a hundred years shows his name was rarely sullied. If all adults thought him a fool why would they teach their sons he was a hero?

Because it makes for a nice story, same way adults tell their kids about Santa or fairy tales, but when they get older they're supposed to give that nonsense up and start dealing with reality.

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Well, you must really approve of Roose Bolton, then. What? Boltons had been brutally subjugated once, and oaths given under duress are meaningless. As are guest rights and peace banners, apparently. "Never wound a man when you can kill him", indeed.

Walder Frey agreed with you and acted upon it. No need to feel outraged about it, it seems.

Stuff like peace banners and guestright is sacred in Westeros for a reason. It helps to avoid unnecessary slaughter, it helps to survive their multi-year winters.

And all the top Houses got their spots by brutally conquering and forcing people to swear oaths to them under duress. All of them, including the Martells.

So, yea, pot, kettle, black?

Yes, I am the Boltons number one fan. Because waiting for a good deal of years, pretending to accept the situation and then pouncing all of a sudden is totally the same thing.

Just for my information, are you a Tywin fan, by chance? Because Sansa swore her vows to Tyrion, so the Lannisters are totally entitled to claim the North through her.

I guess you were all cheering for Robb doing his thing and tearing up at what a great thing true love is? Smart Catelyn didn't and she feared the Freys just because she expected they'd try something nasty for an offense that Robb had given them. And Robb had never even attacked them.

Stuff like peace treaties is usually held in high regard for a reason.

All the top Houses kept their spots by the other Houses accepting their superiority like, thousands of years ago. Funny how the rest of Dorne didn't cheer for Aegon the Liberator or Daeron the Liberator.

There was a status quo of peace, more or less, and it lasted about a hundred years after the blood that everyone shed ten thousand years ago or a thousand years ago. Daeron broke it, he wasn't wary enough, he lost big. That's it. But feel free to think that he was the victim.

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Im gonna explain to you why this is an utterly pathetic argument and why you should never have brought up the Freys.

1. Robb never came to the Freys demanding anything, all he wanted was to cross the bridge. It was Walder Frey who decided to send them his sons and soldiers after Cat negotiated with him for a betrothal. Daeron demanded their submission to his authority.

2. Robb never attacked the Freys and he never even threatened them, Daeron attacked Dorne.

3. Frey is a bannermen to Cat's family, Dorne was never a bannerman to the IT.

4. You are only looking at the peace banner, while you should be looking at why that banner was waved around in the first place.

If Daeron came to Dorne without any weapons and just to talk and then they killed him? I would have agreed with your argument. That is not what happened.

You seem to think that the reason the Freys are so despised on this board is solely because they broke guest right, this is not true, it's because they stabbed their allies in the back.

1. Robb came to him.

2. Daeron attacked Dorne, that was been stated and quiet obvious, he didn't come to them about the peace they chose to meet for peace.

3. They actually did surrneder to Daeron.

4. Robb was his master by argument as frey put it, he served both king and lord, he was rebelling against a throne he had no way of knowing was truly not his true kings. He had reason to abandon Stark as he did, as Robb was seeking to join forces again, the dornish siad they wanted to join the SK, as Frey did, and killed Daeron.

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My God 5 whole pages about Daeron getting killed in Dorne :( Time to open a seperate thread to argue about this me thinks.










EDIT: Or settle it with a knifefight.. I'll take care of the peace banners :p


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No it fucking doesn't. Stalin is a hero in Georgia, go outside Georgia and say that he was the shit.

So a leader is seen as a hero in a country is meant to be a example of a leader not being seen as hero in a country?

Because it makes for a nice story, same way adults tell their kids about Santa or fairy tales, but when they get older they're supposed to give that nonsense up and start dealing with reality.

Daeron isn't a fairy tale hero, he was a real person, who people boys dreamed to be, if was so sullied why would the lords approve of their sons dreaming to be him?

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1. Robb came to him. Did he DEMAND anything? Not saying ask, DEMAND?

2. Daeron attacked Dorne, that was been stated and quiet obvious, he didn't come to them about the peace they chose to meet for peace. Another strike against the Frey argument

3. They actually did surrneder to Daeron. Which is another way of saying he attacked them and they gave up eventually

4. Robb was his master by argument as frey put it, he served both king and lord, he was rebelling against a throne he had no way of knowing was truly not his true kings. He had reason to abandon Stark as he did, as Robb was seeking to join forces again, the dornish siad they wanted to join the SK, as Frey did, and killed Daeron. I ask again, did Robb attack the Freys? Were they his enemies or allies?

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Good one. Basil II whose nickname was the Bulgar-slayer was a hero for the Byzantine empire and still is for some people. For some strange reason I don't believe that it was the same for other countries too.

Given the fact that 200 years later the Bulgarian Tsar Kaloyan named himself Byzantine-slayer, claiming to take his revenge for the eyes of the 14 000 defeated soldiers Basil II took out, I'd say not.

By the way, the name of the same Tsar means "The Good Ivan". He was also called "The Dog Ivan". It's all a matter of perspective.

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So a leader is seen as a hero in a country is meant to be a example of a leader not being seen as hero in a country? It's an example of him only being a hero to a specific group of people

Daeron isn't a fairy tale hero, he was a real person, who people boys dreamed to be, if was so sullied why would the lords approve of their sons dreaming to be him? Plenty of parents allow their kids to dream about being Evil Knievel or some TV idol, watch what those same parents say as the kids grow up.

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Yes, I am the Boltons number one fan. Because waiting for a good deal of years, pretending to accept the situation and then pouncing all of a sudden is totally the same thing.

Just for my information, are you a Tywin fan, by chance? Because Sansa swore her vows to Tyrion, so the Lannisters are totally entitled to claim the North through her.

I guess you were all cheering for Robb doing his thing and tearing up at what a great thing true love is? Smart Catelyn didn't and she feared the Freys just because she expected they'd try something nasty for an offense that Robb had given them. And Robb had never even attacked them.

Stuff like peace treaties is usually held in high regard for a reason.

All the top Houses kept their spots by the other Houses accepting their superiority like, thousands of years ago. Funny how the rest of Dorne didn't cheer for Aegon the Liberator or Daeron the Liberator.

There was a status quo of peace, more or less, and it lasted about a hundred years after the blood that everyone shed ten thousand years ago or a thousand years ago. Daeron broke it, he wasn't wary enough, he lost big. That's it. But feel free to think that he was the victim.

As did the dornish pretended to expect Daeron's terms.

She has two living true brothers, her claim was destroyed by Robb if they follow true NK rule, by Lannisters own designs, I guess the do see themselves as rulers of the North. Does it mean the lords of the North won't rebel? Of course not.

But she expected they break a sacred taboo like the killing him in his hall.

By killing and warring. You think the Boltons or Umbers cheered at them calling them liberators?

I see no victim, I see stupidity, like the Freys, they gained hate they could not afford.

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