[TWOIAF Spoilers] Discussions of TWOIAF

[Colonel Green]

Lord Corlys Velaryon must have been one of the smoothest talkers in the history of Westeros, since he apparently managed to go from an imprisoned rebel to a member of Aegon II's small council, and then convinced the rest of the court to poison him and agree to Aegon III taking the throne.

[The Human Abstract]

If there's a dragon's egg beneath Winterfell, it won't have been from Vermax.

Why is that?

[Moondancer]

Lord Corlys Velaryon must have been one of the smoothest talkers in the history of Westeros, since he apparently managed to go from an imprisoned rebel to a member of Aegon II's small council, and then convinced the rest of the court to poison him and agree to Aegon III taking the throne.

I still haven't gone through Aegon II/III sections thoroughly - but even so, Sea Snake is formidable.

[HexMachina]

Lord Corlys Velaryon must have been one of the smoothest talkers in the history of Westeros, since he apparently managed to go from an imprisoned rebel to a member of Aegon II's small council, and then convinced the rest of the court to poison him and agree to Aegon III taking the throne.

And was then given a place of honour at the foot of the IT upon his death. Silver-tongued indeed.

[BlackDruid]

One of the illustrations shows the known world (in the begining of the book if I'm not mistaken), beautiful picture by the way, but the valyrian peninsula doesnt seem shatered, is this a interpretation of the artist of a shatered peninsula or is it a representation of a before the doom Valyria, the colouring makes me uncertain because it seems very much a wasteland?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Why is that?

Well, it is only my opinion, but how would Vermax have ever gotten himself into the crypts? Either the dragon was too big to enter, or there was a door he couldn't get through.. Dragons can't open doors, after all.

Most importantly, what would be the use? Why would Jace allow a dragon egg to remain at Winterfell?

[Stallion That Mounts Texas]

A few key observations after finishing the book:

1. The relationship between Aerys and Tywin went even further than I thought. The two were said to be inseparable in their youth, along with another of Aerys’ cousins, when Tywin served as a page at KL. Tywin even knighted Aerys after the Stepstones (wow). Its a shame how they ended.

2. A young Tywin was apparently competent warrior in the field, and not just the battle commander we have know him to be.

3. I understand Tywin a bit more now, and can relate. His cruelty was terrible, but his father’s weakness, and Aerys’ insae jealousy were beyond the pale.

4. Numbers:

-Torren Stark took 30,000 Northmen across the Neck to face Aegon I. This should quell doubts about the North’s continued ability to fight the war present day.

-The Vulture King was able amass 30,000 troops in his takeover of the Boneway. The Martells simply ignored him and used his rebellion to further defy House Targaryen. This should also give more of a clue to Dorne’s overall strength. It may be closer to 50,000 than we thought.

5. Daeron I needed the entire realm to conquer Dorne. He succeeded in quelling the nobility, but made the fatal mistake of not winning over the people. It was the commons who rose up and continued the resistance. In present day, Prince Doran is right to be afraid of what his people may do if inflamed beyond reason.

6. I’ve been a huge critic of the Tyrion being the son of Aerys theory that had been going around. Hopefully, this book has put it to bed for good.

[HexMachina]

A few key observations after finishing the book:

1. The relationship between Aerys and Tywin went even further than I thought. The two were said to be inseparable in their youth, along with another of Aerys’ cousins, when Tywin served as a page at KL. Tywin even knighted Aerys after the Stepstones (wow). Its a shame how they ended.

2. A young Tywin was apparently competent warrior in the field, and not just the battle commander we have know him to be.

3. I understand Tywin a bit more now, and can relate. His cruelty was terrible, but his father’s weakness, and Aerys’ insae jealousy were beyond the pale.

The majority of stuff in the book relating to Tywin/Aerys is heavily biased. While the general facts were probably true (i.e. Tywin fought in the Stepstones and knighted Aerys, he and Aerys disagreed quite often as Hand/King) are probably true, Tywin is obviously made it to be this perfect man. Partly because the main source is Pycelle, partly because "in-universe" Tywin was probably still alive when this was completed. At least that was my take.

[sertravisredbeard]

Just finished reading through The World of Ice and Fire. Sadly the real world and being busy with work kept me from finishing sooner but here are some of the interesting parts that piqued my curiousity from the first read:

- A melee at the Last Hearth killed 18 men? And melees in the North routinely wrecked entire towns? Awesome.

- Rohanne Webber was Tywin Lannister's grandmother. That's pretty cool. Plus she disappeared mysteriously. I'm guessing into Duncan the Tall's arms.

- Nettles- No one could say where she went until years after? Is she the woman one of the Vale tribes worshipped later on?

- The Manderly's seat in the Reach was apparently called Dunstonbury, which was given to the Peakes. Then I'm guessing it got retaken after the Blackfyre Rebellions. The Peakes and Brackens both just looked bad throughout the book.

- At least one more Valyrian steel sword was identified as lost; Lamentation by a Royce. Plus Nightfall used to belong to a Greyjoy. For there being 227 VS swords Martin still hasn't identified 90% of them.

- Aerion Brightflame named his son Maegor. What an all-around dick.

- Egg arrested Bloodraven. I didn't see that one coming, I thought it would have been Maekar. Still think it could have been a political ploy for Egg and Bloodraven though. A "new regime needs to look good plus I've got some buddies living in a cave I need to visit" thing on the part of BR.

- Jenny of Oldstones did actually live in the ruins of Oldstones. I thought they just gave her that nickname because it matched the song.

- Prince Duncan pissed off the Baratheons by marrying Jenny. That might have made the rebellion twenty years later more palatable on the part of the family and its bannermen. Maybe.

- Three successive Tully lords were named Grover, Kermit and Elmo. Funny stuff.

- The Brackens have all sucked. Father and sister trained Bethany to snag Aegon IV? That family's nuts.

- Harys Swyft's daughter started off as Kevan's hostage for debts Harys didn't pay. Harys. What a joke. I hope Arya kills him in Braavos too.

- Highgarden's godswood has three weirwoods with their branches entangling. That's an interesting image. And probably the thing I appreciate most about the Reach. I just don't like that place.

- Were there some Children of the Forest living close to Ib? That's sure what the "woods walkers" sounded like.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

A few key observations after finishing the book:

1. The relationship between Aerys and Tywin went even further than I thought. The two were said to be inseparable in their youth, along with another of Aerys’ cousins, when Tywin served as a page at KL. Tywin even knighted Aerys after the Stepstones (wow). Its a shame how they ended.

2. A young Tywin was apparently competent warrior in the field, and not just the battle commander we have know him to be.

3. I understand Tywin a bit more now, and can relate. His cruelty was terrible, but his father’s weakness, and Aerys’ insae jealousy were beyond the pale.

4. Numbers:

-Torren Stark took 30,000 Northmen across the Neck to face Aegon I. This should quell doubts about the North’s continued ability to fight the war present day.

-The Vulture King was able amass 30,000 troops in his takeover of the Boneway. The Martells simply ignored him and used his rebellion to further defy House Targaryen. This should also give more of a clue to Dorne’s overall strength. It may be closer to 50,000 than we thought.

5. Daeron I needed the entire realm to conquer Dorne. He succeeded in quelling the nobility, but made the fatal mistake of not winning over the people. It was the commons who rose up and continued the resistance. In present day, Prince Doran is right to be afraid of what his people may do if inflamed beyond reason.

6. I’ve been a huge critic of the Tyrion being the son of Aerys theory that had been going around. Hopefully, this book has put it to bed for good.

1+2+3: keep in mind that the main source for most things Tywin/Aerys is Pycelle, who is heavily Lannister-biased to start with. Second, Yandel would have needed to keep all critisism to the Lannister to a minimum, as offending the family of the Queen would not to well.

4:

Numbers of the North: Keep in mind that Thorren had the better part of two years to gather his fighters. Robb Stark only had a few weeks. But you are right to state that there might be more fighters left in the North currently, than some people suspect.

Numbers of the Vulture King: Good point.

6: Unfortunately, the opinions haven't changed. Those who believe in A+J=T are now more convinced than ever that the theory is true, whilst those who disagree with A+J=T are now more convinced than ever that the theory isn't true.. Funny how that goes.

- Nettles- No one could say where she went until years after? Is she the woman one of the Vale tribes worshipped later on?

Yes.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Well, it is only my opinion, but how would Vermax have ever gotten himself into the crypts? Either the dragon was too big to enter, or there was a door he couldn't get through.. Dragons can't open doors, after all.

Most importantly, what would be the use? Why would Jace allow a dragon egg to remain at Winterfell?

Vermax was a great bronze dragon, bronze being affiliated with the First Men. Could be foreshadowing the Green and Bronze Rhaegal being tamed by a Stark.

[Ingelheim]

One question...what do you think was in the letter Nymor wrote to Aegon?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

One question...what do you think was in the letter Nymor wrote to Aegon?

I think that it wasn't Nymor who wrote the letter but Rhaenys. I believe that she told him that she was critically injured and she would die and begged him for peace.

[Ingelheim]

I think that it wasn't Nymor who wrote the letter but Rhaenys. I believe that she told him that she was critically injured and she would die and begged him for peace.

I was actually thinking something like that. The other possibility is that Nymor threatened to kill Rhaenys if Aegon dared to attack again Dorne, telling him that she was still alive or some sort of lie. Of course, Aegon would have wanted to see his sister again, something we know didn't happen.

[Red Tiger]

I was actually thinking something like that. The other possibility is that Nymor threatened to kill Rhaenys if Aegon dared to attack again Dorne, telling him that she wa still alive or some sort of lie. Of course, Aegon would have wanted to see his sister again, something we know didn't happen.

Maybe the letter was written in high Valyrian or something like that.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Hmm.. I wonder which match Jace promised to Cregan Stark.. He promised a marriage to a Targaryen princess, but there were only few available (Helaena, who was married, Jaehaera, who was only 6, Rhaena and Baela, who were both betrothed).

Jace couldn't have promised Rhaena, as he couldn't have been aware yet that Lucerys was dead...

He was himself betrothed to Baela, and thus couldn't promise her either.

Helaena was married.. But Aegon II would not survive the war. She would be an option?

Jaehaera was only 6, and not 100% healthy in addition.. I doubt that Cregan would have taken a match with her as a compliment..

So, is Helaena the most logical option? With Rhaena as a second, as I can't recall we learn exactly when Jace returns, compared to Luke's death..?

Perhaps Rhaena was married off in the last few months of the war, leading to her no longer being an option. Helaena was dead, so she was no longer an option, and marrying Jaehaera to Aegon III was important for the peace. That would leave Baela.. When was she betrothed to Alyn Velaryon?

[Veltigar]

Hmm.. I wonder which match Jace promised to Cregan Stark.. He promised a marriage to a Targaryen princess, but there were only few available (Helaena, who was married, Jaehaera, who was only 6, Rhaena and Baela, who were both betrothed).

Jace couldn't have promised Rhaena, as he couldn't have been aware yet that Lucerys was dead...

He was himself betrothed to Baela, and thus couldn't promise her either.

Helaena was married.. But Aegon II would not survive the war. She would be an option?

Jaehaera was only 6, and not 100% healthy in addition.. I doubt that Cregan would have taken a match with her as a compliment..

So, is Helaena the most logical option? With Rhaena as a second, as I can't recall we learn exactly when Jace returns, compared to Luke's death..?

Perhaps Rhaena was married off in the last few months of the war, leading to her no longer being an option. Helaena was dead, so she was no longer an option, and marrying Jaehaera to Aegon III was important for the peace. That would leave Baela.. When was she betrothed to Alyn Velaryon?

Perhaps a hypothetical future daughter of Jaecerys?

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Perhaps a hypothetical future daughter of Jaecerys?

But that wouldn't be a reason for Cregan to be upset, would it be? Aegon III was only a few years younger than Jace. So Cregan would need to wait only a few years longer for such a match.. I'm assuming that the Pact was for Cregan's son, Rickon, and not Cregan himself.. The girl would then be of an age with Rickon, perhaps a few years younger.. How perfectly matched would you have it..?

[Lord Knightmare]

I thought it said a wife for Cregan though not his son

[Maia]

Well, Jace went on extended journey, first to the Vale, then to the North, while Luke's errand was supposed to be a short hop to Storm's End. So, maybe Jace learned about the tragedy before he reached the North and quickly improvised.

Or maybe, he offered Rhaena while Luke was still alive, which would have made his death all the more tragic, as he could have saved himself by agreeing to marry one of Borros's daughters, had he only known.

I don't see Jace offering Baela, as it would have jeopardized Daemon's and Velaryon support. Also, it would have given the North a dragon. OTOH, offering Rhaena also meant giving up hopes for Luke inheriting Driftmark. Hm...

But, at least, Corlys making the the Hull brothers his heirs makes more sense, as despite Luke's death, Rhaena wouldn't have been free to be betrothed to/marry Joffrey. Corlys wasn't really desinheriting his granddaughters in favor of his bastard sons, as said granddaughters were expected to get very high positions away from Driftmark.

Rhaena's marriage/betrothal to Corbray does seem odd in this light, but maybe by then Jace was already dead and she/they figured that it was necessary to get the Vale to move? And that Cregan could get Baela, after all?

I don't see Joffrey having good prospects without marriage to one of the twins, between Daemon and Corlys, though. So, maybe Rhaena's marriage to Corbray came later.

Baela would have been burned and wounded after her fight with Aegon II, so maybe Cregan didn't want her? Or maybe he fell madly in love with Black Aly and didn't want a Targaryen bride anymore?