[TWOIAF SPOILERS] Valyria, Free Cities, and further East Discussion thread

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

So I'm very intrigued by all the new information regarding the Doom, Valyria and the history of all the Free Cities.

So to prevent spoilers popping up everywhere I want to devote this thread to these topics.

So it's still up for debate on how the Valyrian's became dragonlords but were given a list of interesting possibilities:

In such fragments of Barth’s Unnatural History as remain, the septon appears to have considered various legends examining the origins of dragons and how they came to be controlled by the Valyrians. The Valyrians themselves claimed that dragons sprang forth as the children of the Fourteen Flames, while in Qarth the tales state that there was once a second moon in the sky. One day this moon was scalded by the sun and cracked like an egg, and a million dragons poured forth. In Asshai, the tales are many and confused, but certain texts— all impossibly ancient— claim that dragons first came from the Shadow, a place where all of our learning fails us. These Asshai’i histories say that a people so ancient they had no name first tamed dragons in the Shadow and brought them to Valyria, teaching the Valyrians their arts before departing from the annals. Yet if men in the Shadow had tamed dragons first, why did they not conquer as the Valyrians did? It seems likelier that the Valyrian tale is the truest. But there were dragons in Westeros, once, long before the Targaryens came, as our own legends and histories tell us. If dragons did first spring from the Fourteen Flames, they must have been spread across much of the known world before they were tamed. And, in fact, there is evidence for this, as dragon bones have been found as far north as Ib, and even in the jungles of Sothoryos. But the Valyrians harnessed and subjugated them as no one else could.

I'm still wondering how a group of shepherds were able to learn magic and also learn how to control dragons and no one else ever did the same. Perhaps there is truth in the ancient texts that someone from Asshai taught then something? Within the main series there is a lot of connection between Asshai and dragons, so there must be some connection there on how the Valyrian's learnt the "art".

I also found it interesting that there were other dragonlords in other Free Cities after the Doom but they were all killed along side their dragons. Volantis as an early Valyrian Military fortress is also interesting.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Why are there no children in Asshai?

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Why are there no children in Asshai?

That stunned me as well. Maybe they're just kept outside the city to keep them safe from magic.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

Why are there no children in Asshai?

I'm probably going into crackpot territory, but I think its possible the practitioners are ready to use children as a sacrifice

[Free Northman Reborn]

We see many homages in Martin's work to other fantasy and scifi works.

Hyrkoon is a homage to Edgar Rice Burroughs Mars/Venus series. Ser Rillian to CS Lewis's work. Lord Jordayne of the Tor to Robert Jordan. Etc.

Could the origin of dragons be a homage to Anne Mccaffrey's Pern series?

An ancient second moon cracked open and spilled forth a million dragons (similar to the Thread coming down on Pern). The firewyrms are related to, but predate the dragons (similar to the small fire lizards native to Pern). A mysterious ancient race, now lost to history, (but maybe related to the second moon that cracked open), emerges from Ashai and uses their mysterious knowledge to mutate the firewyrms (maybe crossbreeding them with native wyverns) to create huge, firebreathing flying lizards. The knowledge of this ancient race is soon lost, just like the world of Pern eventually descends to a medieval level of technology, with them leaving only mysterious monuments that predate civilization, like the Seastoen Chair, some old Fort in Oldtown, and other black monuments all over the world.

Sounds like an ancient race with superior magic (in place of the technology of a sci-fi story), are at the root of it all.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

We see many homages in Martin's work to other fantasy and scifi works.

Hyrkoon is a homage to Edgar Rice Burroughs Mars/Venus series. Ser Rillian to CS Lewis's work. Lord Jordayne of the Tor to Robert Jordan. Etc.

Could the origin of dragons be a homage to Anne Mccaffrey's Pern series?

An ancient second moon cracked open and spilled forth a million dragons (similar to the Thread coming down on Pern). The firewyrms are related to, but predate the dragons (similar to the small fire lizards native to Pern). A mysterious ancient race, now lost to history, (but maybe related to the second moon that cracked open), emerges from Ashai and uses their mysterious knowledge to mutate the firewyrms (maybe crossbreeding them with native wyverns) to create huge, firebreathing flying lizards. The knowledge of this ancient race is soon lost, just like the world of Pern eventually descends to a medieval level of technology, with them leaving only mysterious monuments that predate civilization, like the Seastoen Chair, some old Fort in Oldtown, and other black monuments all over the world.

Sounds like an ancient race with superior magic (in place of the technology of a sci-fi story), are at the root of it all.

The moon and the million dragons was first a tale from Doreah when she talked about a Qartheeen trader in AGoT. If its an homage (I don't know Pern), it's GRRM's homage from a while ago.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

We see many homages in Martin's work to other fantasy and scifi works.

Hyrkoon is a homage to Edgar Rice Burroughs Mars/Venus series. Ser Rillian to CS Lewis's work. Lord Jordayne of the Tor to Robert Jordan. Etc.

Could the origin of dragons be a homage to Anne Mccaffrey's Pern series?

An ancient second moon cracked open and spilled forth a million dragons (similar to the Thread coming down on Pern). The firewyrms are related to, but predate the dragons (similar to the small fire lizards native to Pern). A mysterious ancient race, now lost to history, (but maybe related to the second moon that cracked open), emerges from Ashai and uses their mysterious knowledge to mutate the firewyrms (maybe crossbreeding them with native wyverns) to create huge, firebreathing flying lizards. The knowledge of this ancient race is soon lost, just like the world of Pern eventually descends to a medieval level of technology, with them leaving only mysterious monuments that predate civilization, like the Seastoen Chair, some old Fort in Oldtown, and other black monuments all over the world.

Sounds like an ancient race with superior magic (in place of the technology of a sci-fi story), are at the root of it all.

I've read Pern before, and I agree it's actually very similar, the thread sounds exactly similar to the Qartheen legend. GRRM also uses similar concepts in his story "Tuf Voyaging".

There is definitely seems to be some sort of genetic engineering going on between the wyverns and the firewyrms. Though I'm wondering (if the ancient texts are true) what this ancient race did to Valyrians to give them the affinity to dragons

[Free Northman Reborn]

I've read Pern before, and I agree it's actually very similar, the thread sounds exactly similar to the Qartheen legend. GRRM also uses similar concepts in his story "Tuf Voyaging".

There is definitely seems to be some sort of genetic engineering going on between the wyverns and the firewyrms. Though I'm wondering (if the ancient texts are true) what this ancient race did to Valyrians to give them the affinity to dragons

It could be as simple as the ancient Ashai'i race first crossbreeding firewyrms and wyverns in Ashai, before the Long Night. Their newly created flying, firebreathing repitles then spread across the entire world, before all dying out during the Long Night (because they didn't have 14 volcanos to keep their dragons warm and well fed). The ancient Ashai'i race is mostly destroyed by the Long Night.

Then after the Long Night, a few surviving members of this race make it to Valyria, where they find some surviving wild dragons (offspring of their original breeding project that made it to Valyria), nesting in the 14 Fires. They then teach their magic to a friendly Valyrian shepherd, before the last of the Ashai'i die. Unlike the peaceful ancient Ashai'i, the barbarric proto-Valyrians immediately start using their dragonmastery to dominate their neighbours and eventually form the Valyrian Empire.

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

It could be as simple as the ancient Ashai'i race first crossbreeding firewyrms and wyverns in Ashai, before the Long Night. Their newlye created flyring, firebreathing repitles then spread across the entire world, before all dying out during the Long Night (because they don't have 14 volcanos to keep their dragons warm and well fed). The ancient Ashai'i race is mostly destroyed by the Long Night.

Then after the Long Night, a few surviving members of this race make it to Valyria, where they find some surviving wild dragons (offspring of their original breeding project that made it to Valyria), nesting in the 14 Fires. They then teach their magic to a friendly Valyrian shepherd, before the last of the Ashai'i die. Unlike the peaceful ancient Ashai'i, the barbarric proto-Valyrians immediately start using their dragonmastery to dominate their neighbours and eventually form the Valyrian Empire.

That sounds really apt.

It explains why all the dragons had disappeared except for the fourteen flames. And it also explains why people of Asshai have no idea where Asshai came from. The descriptions of Asshai also sound like a city that has been deserted from ancient times and now only used as a place to practice magic and trade. It doesn't even seem like there is a system of government there.

ETA: I also realized that from the Qartheen legend the dragons drank the sun before they began to breathe fire. That makes a good symbolic legend of wyverns changing into dragons.

[Kushluk of Skagos]

I would like to arrogantly and openly celebrate that I decoded Kingdomes of the Ifequevron before either the App, the Maps, or Worlds.

(http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/85348-kingdoms-of-the-ifeqevron/page-2). I was quite happy to read all about it in this tome :)

Further, it seems the Children were in fact all over the weirder parts of the world.

[Til]

The first thing I read was the Asshai entry, followed by Lorath. I've been dying to get some info on Lorath, so I was pretty happy with all the things we now know about it. I wonder if the mazemakers have any significance or if they're just there for flavor.

[History of Westeros]

Why are there no children in Asshai?

Food can't grow there, so perhaps life cannot grow in general, making people effectively or actually sterile.

Or everyone just has shadowbabies!

How does the population continue? Though we don't know that Melisandre was born there, but if she was, her extreme age becomes a lot more interesting.

[David C. Hunter]

I will have to reread my favorite sections again, but one thing was apparently very clear about ancient times.

1.) The Long Night was everywhere. No one escaped it. Who knows how many cultures were annihilated by it?

2.) Children of the Forest were everywhere.

3.) Jogos Khai are like Dothraki with brains. Jogos Nhai > Dothraki, and the story of the female leader vs the Young Prince was epic

4.) The Yi Ti history and civilization is the most interesteing in Essos, lol. Loved reading about them.

5.) Everyone has a goddamn Lightbringer story, which is really annoying. It's starting to scream red herring.

6.) Ibbenese are the dwarves of this world

Asshai just confused me, as its supposed to since hardly anyone has been there, but my god. It sounds like purgatory more than an actual location. Just what the hell are those people?

[Maia]

I never thought that I would say this... But I am really regretting that Dany isn't going to travel to Asshai, because that place sounds incredibly intriguing.

My take on it is that Asshai and it's backlands is affected by "magical fallout", which is like a radiation fallout, in some of it's aspects. We know that Matarys is called a "city of monsters", because of the fallout of the Doom, but Asshai is beyond even that, which is why no children can be born/survive there. The inhabitants, I imagine, become sterile too if they stay too long. That is, if their goal hadn't been to become immortal self-aware wights to begin with.

But that's what kept magic strong there, even while it was weak everywhere else. The fallout is maybe a result of some ancient magical catastrophe, perhaps even the one that caused the Long Night in the first place, or just a result of habitual overuse of magic over millenia and eons, environmental pollution so to speak.

The dragons, I am now quite certain, originated in the Shadow and were an engineered species. It is now clear that they are not space aliens, as they are clearly related to other creatures living on Planetos, such as wyverns and firewyrms. It wouldn't surprise me if the dragons had been made as a response to the Long Night. For that matter, we don't even know if the previous Long Night was the first one, or if humans had been too primitive to retain any knowledge of the one(s) before it.

As to Valyrians, it seems to me that a small group of them that gave rise to the dragonlord families must have been engineered also. Why the ancients would have thought that it was a good idea, we cannot know. Maybe they were (a?) dragon-riding the survivor(s) of the Long Night, who chose to settle by the volcanoes, because dragons can only truly thrive near volcanoes? Maybe the dragons have difficulties procreating away from them? Which would, to some degree, explain why dragons eventually went extinct everywhere else. That and humans seeing them as competition and killing them, of course. Unless there are some still in the backlands of Asshai, but it doesn't seem like there would be anything for them to eat there.

Still, we now have confirmation that dragons used to be relatively wide-spread, but nobody except for Valyrians ever managed to tame them ;). Doesn't sound like it could be a simple common-sense matter of just feeding them some sheep...

[Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™]

As to Valyrians, it seems to me that a small group of them that gave rise to the dragonlord families must have been engineered also. Why the ancients would have thought that it was a good idea, we cannot know. Maybe they were (a?) dragon-riding the survivor(s) of the Long Night, who chose to settle by the volcanoes, because dragons can only truly thrive near volcanoes? Maybe the dragons have difficulties procreating away from them? Which would, to some degree, explain why dragons eventually went extinct everywhere else. That and humans seeing them as competition and killing them, of course. Unless there are some still in the backlands of Asshai, but it doesn't seem like there would be anything for them to eat there.

Still, we now have confirmation that dragons used to be relatively wide-spread, but nobody except for Valyrians ever managed to tame them ;). Doesn't sound like it could be a simple common-sense matter of just feeding them some sheep...

Coming to think of it, the Valyrian's distinct look may be down to them marrying off the last remnants of that ancient race who might have survived the long night, their eyes and hair being completely different than all their neighboring cities may be a hint. It would also explain their affinity for dragons.

I could be as you said, the fourteen flames was a good way to keep the dragons thriving and by chance they encountered shepherds and married them for some reason.

Incest was done to preserve their bloodline so there must be something they got externally to add to their bloodline to preserve it.

[Mrs.Grumpy]

I love that how no food grows in Asshai, this explains why Mel is able to live without food or water, they taught this spell/magic/whatever in Asshai because food and water is not always avaible. I think children die in Asshai because magic is too strong and children are too weak to handle magical energy? (Im looking at you Harry Potter :laugh: ) But how do they reproduce? O.O

Asshai is immense though. It might be the biggest city in all world.

Also Mel is a shadowbinder too. Is that mean she ate those mutated fishes in Ash? Did she dare to go upriver. She must be a POV in TWOW :crying:

[FC_Lymond]

The first thing I read was the Asshai entry, followed by Lorath. I've been dying to get some info on Lorath, so I was pretty happy with all the things we now know about it. I wonder if the mazemakers have any significance or if they're just there for flavor.

Lorath sounds very cool. I liked the stories of the Mazes.

Lorath is the smallest, poorest, and least populous of the Nine Free Cities.

I didn't really like this part. Places like Lorath usually are quite wealthy (if depressing to live there). Places like Spitzbergen and Newfoundland produced vast amounts of export goods.

[Ser Lepus]

Lorath sounds very cool. I liked the stories of the Mazes.

I didn't really like this part. Places like Lorath usually are quite wealthy (if depressing to live there). Places like Spitzbergen and Newfoundland produced vast amounts of export goods.

The Lorathi have stronger neighbours (Braavos and Ibben) invading their waters and taking their whales, seals and fish. And the Braavosi probably do everything they can to prevent the Lorathi from directly trading with Westeros or the other Free Cities, forcing themselves in as middlemen.

[HexMachina]

I really liked the Lorath section too. It was nice to learn the origin of "a man has said" etc. :) I mentioned it elsewhere, but the Priests also devoted their lives to opening their third eye, which is described in a similar way to Bran's "third eye".

Was surprised at Qohor, it sounds like a nasty place to live.

More of the World's wonders revealed, happy! :)

[Spring Bass]

I was really pleased with how much material it had on Yi Ti and the Far East. It's obviously the "Imperial China" equivalent in the Martinworld, and the Maesters treat it as such - it's considered fascinating and very important even if it is far away, and they have some good detail on it even if the scholars of Yi Ti are really stingy with their records.