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Stannis's Lawyer

Tyrion UNDENIABLY raped the Sunset Girl

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On the Cersei thread, people were claiming Tyrion did not, in fact, rape the Sunset Girl at Selhorys. I just :bang: :bang: at this notion.

First, what does it mean to rape someone? Oxford:

(Typically of a man) force (another person) to have sexual intercourse with the offender against their will

Rape is sex without consent (note that Oxford defines rape as a noun is a crime, but since there are no codified anti-rape laws in Westeros or Volantis this doesn't really apply).

So

The whore was looking at his noseless face with revulsion in her eyes. "Do I offend you, sweetling? I am an offensive creature, as my father would be glad to tell you if he were not dead and rotting."

The poor girl is repulsed by Tyrion. It's pretty apparent that she does not want to have sex with this "offensive creature".

The wine was strong and sour and required no translation. "I suppose I shall settle for your cunt." He wiped his mouth with the back of his hand. "Have you ever bedded a monster before? Now's as good a time as any. Out of your clothes and onto your back, if it please you. Or not." She looked at him uncomprehending, until he took the flagon from her hands and lifted her skirts up over her head. After that she understood what was required of her, though she did not prove the liveliest of partners. Tyrion had been so long without a woman that he spent himself inside her on the third thrust.

She's not "lively" because she's being forced into the intercourse, which is "required of her".

Her back was crisscrossed by ridges of scar tissue.

Given what we know of the treatment of slaves in Volantis, she'll probably be whipped if she refuses to be raped. So this is not consensual sex.

Even Tyrion, who at this point is a wretched creature engulfed in self-pity and hatred, feels guilty, and probably realizes that this is rape:

He rolled off feeling more ashamed than sated. This was a mistake. What a wretched creature I've become. "Do you know a woman by the name of Tysha?" he asked, as he watched his seed dribble out of her onto the bed. The whore did not respond. "Do you know where whores go?" She did not answer that one either. Her back was crisscrossed by ridges of scar tissue. This girl is as good as dead. I have just fucked a corpse. Even her eyes looked dead. She does not even have the strength to loathe me. He needed wine. A lot of wine. [...] There was none to be found. His stomach heaved, and he found himself on his knees, retching on the carpet, that wonderful thick Myrish carpet, as comforting as lies. The whore cried out in distress. They will blame her for this, he realized, ashamed. [,,,] Griff will flay me. Well, why not? If ever a dwarf deserved a skinning, it's me.

But finally, Tyrion rapes her again:

[Tyrion] shoved her legs apart, crawled between them, and took her once more. That much she could comprehend, at least.

Then the Sunset Girl runs away.

Afterward the wine was done and so was he, so he wadded up the girl's clothing and tossed it at the door. She took the hint and fled, leaving him alone in the darkness, sinking deeper into his feather bed.

This was clearly rape.

Q&A

Q. But she was a prostitute!

A. Prostitutes can be raped.

And besides, she was a slave. She was forced to have sex with hundreds of men, and gained nothing from it. All the money went to her master.

Q. But it wasn't illegal!

A. In some traditional societies, gang rape is an accepted punishment. That doesn't mean those women are not being raped. Again, rape is sex without consent.

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Of course it is rape. How could anyone suggest anything else.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/119091-tyrion-just-as-bad-as-cersei/page-5

[Tyrion] had gone into a brothel in Selhorys (the one where Mormont takes him prisoner) where he paid actual money for a prostitute.

To him, as a product of his world and his upbringing in it, that would not be rape.

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Tyrion also observed that the slave was probably not going to be alive much longer, and that she'd been whipped (scars on her back). The incident was part of a larger scenario where Tyrion had reached a low point in his life and was acting in a generally execrable manner.



It doesn't define him as a character any more than burning people alive defines Stannis.


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Tyrion also observed that the slave was probably not going to be alive much longer, and that she'd been whipped (scars on her back). The incident was part of a larger scenario where Tyrion had reached a low point in his life and was acting in a generally execrable manner.

It doesn't define him as a character any more than burning people alive defines Stannis.

Not the point ofc it can be a low point, but it ia important to know how low tyrion went, and to not make excuses for him

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Tyrion also raped that woman in Illyrio's manse. He wanted to hurt someone so he turned it into that situation. It hadn't started out as a rape situation, but he made it one.



Show watchers may find this hard to believe, but the books Tyrion may be amusing to read, but is definitely not a very nice man.


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Of course, anyone who pays money to a prostitute, or who pays a pimp to procure a prostitute for him, is financing exploitation and abuse 9 times out of 10, whether that is obvious to him or not. But this case is particularly obvious.


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Tyrion also raped that woman in Illyrio's manse. He wanted to hurt someone so he turned it into that situation. It hadn't started out as a rape situation, but he made it one.

No he didn't. Claiming he did is really stretching it IMO, and reading things into it that weren't there.

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I think Westeros/Essos may be out of the FBI's jurisdiction.

I honestly don't know what to say about topics like these. By todays standards, yes, clearly rape, chuck him behind bars, judge. Case closed! Oh and while we're at it, lets just close the brothel, oh and lets abolish slavery, oh and what's that? You're carrying a halberd?!?! In public?!!? No, i'm sorry, that's illegal.

This is Planetos, he went into a whore house and shagged a prostitute who didn't appreciate his less than comely appearance and was visibly disgusted by him.

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I think Westeros/Essos may be out of the FBI's jurisdiction.

You would disagree with the FBI's definition of rape?

I honestly don't know what to say about topics like these. By todays standards, yes, clearly rape, chuck him behind bars, judge. Case closed! Oh and while we're at it, lets just close the brothel, oh and lets abolish slavery, oh and what's that? You're carrying a halberd?!?! In public?!!? No, i'm sorry, that's illegal.

So the 'medieval standards!' defense. Well, Tyrion himself feels guilt and shame, so...

This is Planetos, he went into a whore house and shagged a prostitute who didn't appreciate his less than comely appearance and was visibly disgusted by him.

So compare Shae, a prostitute, having completely consensual sex with Tyrion, with this one. Again, this poor woman gained nothing unlike Shae or the Queen o' Whores or Chataya.

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Of course it's rape. Same as at Illyrio's manse.



Tyrion is an atrocious human being.





Of course, anyone who pays money to a prostitute, or who pays a pimp to procure a prostitute for him, is financing exploitation and abuse 9 times out of 10, whether that is obvious to him or not. But this case is particularly obvious.




Depends on the country.


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I don't think the important distinction is that she's a slave, but that she was absolutely not consenting and Tyrion knew it. We know that Tyrion has had consensual sex with sex workers, some of them probably trafficked so he knows the difference.

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You would disagree with the FBI's definition of rape?

Yes, I would.

Penetration is not required to make it rape. For the same reason that Tywin himself raped Tyrion and Tysha. §177 StGB. Not everybody lives in the US.

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Yes, I would.

Penetration is not required to make it rape. For the same reason that Tywin himself raped Tyrion and Tysha. §177 StGB. Not everybody lives in the US.

Changed to Oxford, which still defines rape as sex without consent with the offender.

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Or the state, whoring is legal in parts of nevada.

But why is it so important wheather we call it rape or not? I saw the whole scene as a way to show how low tryrion was falling. Its not like he treated shae very well. so his character had to go even lower than that.

The important thing was to show him pulling himself out of the gutter he landed in. the girl was just a way to make him wake up to where he was going if he didnt change his ways

I love tryion and this didnt make me love him anyless, I still love reading about him and hoping he gets CR in the end.

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Any client of Essossi brothels undeniably raped slaves, by modern morale standards, as consent of enslaved people is not out of free will but considered submission obtained by force.


(I'm not sure about the sex workers condition in Westeros, but I doubt there's no pimp treating some of them like slaves (what about Jeyne ?). So same for their clients.)


What I find troubling is how people make a fixation on the case of an ugly dwarf being one of them, the "revulsion in her eyes" etc... especially when he's the only one shown feeling guilt for what he did.


I don't see regular threads about Jorah raping the girl looking like Daenerys ; to the point I start to suspect people think he raped her less because he's tall, a little less monstruous and isn't known to have offered her to sell his head in a crisis of self-loathing. And I'm sure the FBI would disagree.



@Whitering : Illyrio's servant is certainly one of Tyrion's lowest points, as he hasn't showed any sign of feeling bad for frightening this one, but it's not stated in the text that anything happened between them.


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Why is it so important for you, Stannis's Lawyer, and for some other posters, that Tyrion UNDENIABLY committed an act that can be called "rape"?

Do you think it helps us to understand the fictional character of Tyrion better if we put a label on it?

Or is it a political fight with a fictional character as proxy about a very really existing horror in our world? So it is a political offense to you and no longer a literature debate if someone does not share your opinion?

Yes, indeed nine out of ten encounters including paid sex and prostitution.are sexual abuse, sexual slavery, sexual violence, name it whatever you want. I am not discussing the very well existing case where men or women work as prostitutes because they wish to since they can pay their university fees with four days of work a month instead of 30 days a month and failing the exam. Yes, there is the free decision to be a sex worker and it is a job we should respect like any other job. But this decision is rare, most sex "work" means abuse, and the woman in Selhorys was for sure forced.

But why is the word "rape" so important in the debate? Is it the worst accusation possible to villify a character, worse than murder? Really? It is a highly emotionally loaded word and I often meet the position here that it is worse to rape someone than to kill that person. Being a woman myself I must say this is a position far away from life. While rape is horror, like any torture can be, killing kills people, murder is final, death penalty is final, the victims are gone FOREVER, no way of finding back into life, no future. Please people, be more aware of the value of human life. Milllions of women had to go on struggling after rape, for the sake of their children e. g. But Shae has not that chance to go on and she got never raped by Tyrion.

I think the whole debate if this is to be labelled "rape" is not necessary at all if we leave the wordfighting surface and try to be aware of the author's intentions concerning the role of Tyrion's fictional character.

Martin intended his readers to watch Tyrion do something ugly, something really ugly related to his so very hopeless and damaged sexuality, an act of hatesex, emphasized by him doing it again after he was aware of "having fucked a corpse". An expression of Tyrion's disgust with himself, doing something despicable because he sees himself as having become as despicable as people have always seen him.

The meaning of what GRRM wants to tell us here is so very crystal clear that it is totally pointless if we modern readers label the act "rape" or not. Tyrion knows that he does something dirty and Martin wants us readers to see this. So the sexually abused child becomes an abuser himself as it often happens in Real Life. Martin wanted to bring this complex protagonist down to his lowest point in order to restart the character's story from rock bottom again.

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