Tyrion UNDENIABLY raped the Sunset Girl

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Either apply our morality, sexual or otherwise, to all characters, or accept the fact that this is not our world.

No. By both the standards of Essos and Westeros AND in our world there is a moral difference between legally executing someone and murder.

Similarly there is a moral difference with paying a consenting prostitute for sex (eg Tyrion and Robert many times, maybe Jorah in selhorys), paying an obviously unwilling prostitute for sex (tyrion in this case), having sex with a consenting partner in an arranged marriage (Ned and cat, Edmure and Roslyn, etc) and having sex with a nonconsenting partner in an arranged marriage (Robert and Cersei, Ramsey and jeyne).

The fact that it is a different world

Does not change the fact that people have a moral compass. Not everything is relative. Tyrion know what he did was wrong. Ned knows what he did was necessary if distasteful.

[Kyoshi]

??

For emphasis. :)

[A spoon of knife and fork]

You're quite right, because Tyrion is one of the few characters in the text who thinks as we do, who would see that it's possible to rape a prostitute or a sex slave. He breaks his own moral standards. That he has such standards makes him a curiosity in his culture. How many of the characters in the novels would even notice that a prostitute is not into the act, and agonize over it?

I think all the POVs except maybe Cersei would know that was wrong, because they are humans with basic empathy.

A few people like Gregor, etc would know it was wrong and get pleasure from that fact. A few others would know it was wrong but come up with some justification for it.

again the important point IMO is not necessarily that she was a slave but that Tyrion was clearly causing her to suffer both then and in the future though his actions.

[Chebyshov]

What I am objecting to is the simple "Tyrion is bad because he is a rapist " thing. The situation is more complex than that.

No argument there.

<snip>

Let's just please stop pretending it's not rape because we don't want to say it. As JCRB has been saying, "so what? He raped her, yes, but what are we supposed to learn from this and think of his characterization?" That's where there should be disagreement, not about the label of the act itself.

<snip>

I would contend with your point about Tyrion being an anomaly for thinking it's wrong to frequent a slave-brothel though. Slavery is outlawed in Westeros and understood to be problematic.

But it doesn't matter. Tyrion's not being singled out for being a rapist, there's plenty in the novels. It's more that there is an adamant refusal for many to call this an act of rape when it was. I don't think the most interesting conversation to be had is over semantics. A thread discussing Tyrion's ADWD treatment of women, his arc, and what we're suppose to infer from [this act along with others] would certainly be better. But this thread was started because it's just downright disturbing that people won't call "rape" by its proper name.

[Konradsmith]

I doubt y'all are going to be able to resolve the age-old moral absolutism v. relativism debate on this thread about a fictional fellow...

[Kyoshi]

I doubt y'all are going to be able to resolve the age-old moral absolutism v. relativism debate on this thread about a fictional fellow...

I'm starting to think so.

[Maid So Fair]

Oh, I'm perfectly chilly. I find your bigotry hilarious.

BWAHAHAHAHA! Is this your excuse for seizing another person's lands by rape? As far as we can tell, Lancel has been competently taking care of these things; (or, if not, at least permitting them to be competently taken care of by those more qualified than himself). Insofar as we can tell, Hardstone is in just as good a position to do these things as Lancel. And Hardstone is the husband that Amerei WANTS. The difference is that Hardstone as Amerei's husband does not serve Lannister power interests.

Nobody is seizing lands by rape. It was an arranged marriage that the Freys not only agreed to but demanded as a price for the RW. We know he's not taking care of anything because Jaime specifically points this out. If he was, there wouldn't be any need for Amerei to try to flirt with every man that has any power to, and shows inclination for dealing with the outlaw problem, as we see her do twice during the course of one dinner. Even if he was, and there's every reason to believe otherwise, he most certainly isn't now that he's in KL.

Power ... in the sense of "power to do good", is usually illusory. Power tends to corrupt, and in the end, it is often found that a humble man has just as much power to do good, and avoid evil, than a powerful man, if not more.

You realize you are taking the side of Jaime, the man who just came from a meal of fish, and veal, and capons stuffed with leeks and mushrooms, and bread, and wine ... till he could not eat another bite, and saw Poof Fellows eating sausages in the yard, and expressed contempt for this because he considers them (from the perspective of the Lannister cause) to be "useless mouths".

The difference is that Jaime only cares about the smallfolk, and making them love him, to the extent that this serves Lannister interests. Lancel cares for the smallfolk, and even calls them "friends", for their own sake.

Meh, there's nothing illusory about a feudal lord's power, which is exactly what Lancel was. He had the soldiers to go after the outlaws (and maintaining law and order is the main point of having a lord in the first place) and thus protect his people. He has the Lannister wealth at his disposal that he can use to buy food and seed. He can patrol the lands to make sure his people can try to get in another harvest without it being stolen or despoiled by the broken men roaming the Riverlands. Go after that massive pack of wolves that is making the roads dangerous. He could have positively affected the lives of hundreds, maybe thousands (depending on the size of Darry lands), of people. He chose his own salvation instead.

Then why are the sparrows the only 'smallfolk' we see? Surely there are starving families all across his war-torn lands? Also, contrast the sparrows leeching off Lancel (and ultimately Darry peasants) with Septon Meribald or the brothers at the Quiet Isle (both great examples of the Faith doing some real good).

ETA: This is my last post on this topic because this discussion is clearly off-topic in this thread. If you want to discuss Lancel, feel free to start a new one.

[Attitude]

Oh my gosh! I am not arguing that. I am not arguing that Tyrion committed a crime in Essos. I am saying that he raped someone; by modern standards and by Westerosi standards it is a crime, maybe not Essos. But it is still rape in Essos; it's just that they probably don't recognise rape as a crime, but it is still non-consensual sex, which is what rape is, which is what happened.

It does not depend. It is forced sex. It is rape. Whether or not it is a crime is another debate.

Fine. But about this debate. I can remember a couple of boys in my country (no I don't live in a 3th world country or something), got away with 'raping' a girl. What happened: They all had sex with her and afterwards she admitted that she actually didn't want it. But she never made it clear to them. Therefor they didn't knew it was against her will. Therefor, they were not convicted for rape.

I hope you agree that this is not rape. And if you agree, and there was no objection when Tyrion did it, why consider it rape then. Because it was 'clear' that she didn't like it?

[Chebyshov]

BECAUSE SHE WAS A MOTHERF**KING SLAVE WHO COULDN'T OBJECT. And yes, because her distress was visible.

How is this still alluding people.

[LordStoneheart]

I agree it is rape, but I have to play the devil's advocate here, and bring up a discussion that I think deserves it's place in this thread:

If Tyrion raped the Sunset Girl, Daenerys murdered the 163 slavers.

It is the same logic. They're slavers! Still murder. I don't think I need to give you the Oxford meaning of murder. They killed the little slaves! Well, the Sunset girl, in theory, gets paid(with food, a place to sleep, and protection(I know it isn't enough, and I am not defending it(I do not condone slavery, violence, rape, or whatever crime. This should be an unnecessary disclaimer, but still))) to be raped.

Is there a reason you feel the need to point this out? Because there is no reason you need to. No one here seems to be defending Daenerys, and no one is defending her by pointing out Tyrion's crimes. A character's crimes are not better or worse because other characters have their own morally shady areas. (I'm going to go out on a limb and say that you're mentioning this because you don't like Daenerys, which really has no place in this specific discussion.)

[Attitude]

BECAUSE SHE WAS A MOTHERF**KING SLAVE WHO COULDN'T OBJECT. And yes, because her distress was visible.

How is this still alluding people.

If she didn't object, how can Tyrion know for sure that she didn't want it? If she didn't object, it can't be considered rape. I mean then you can consider many visits to prostitutes rape. She doesn't want it, but she does it (because she needs the money or w/e) and doesn't object.

[Chebyshov]

If she didn't object, how can Tyrion know for sure that she didn't want it? If she didn't object, it can't be considered rape. I mean then you can consider many visits to prostitutes rape. She doesn't want it, but she does it (because she needs the money or w/e) and doesn't object.

Do you know what a slave is?

[unitron]

You're being reductive about any complaints levied against him. The point of this thread is that we need to stop dancing away from the word "rape" because this situation with the slave is an incontrovertible case of it. Is it the totality of his character? No. Is it in line with his dark turn? Yes. Is his treatment of Sansa in line with how he's always approached life? Yes. Let's just please stop pretending it's not rape because we don't want to say it. As JCRB has been saying, "so what? He raped her, yes, but what are we supposed to learn from this and think of his characterization?" That's where there should be disagreement, not about the label of the act itself.

As for your question, Tyrion is an amazingly well-written character, but it's a character I personally find deeply problematic. On my first read, I liked him, though I was troubled by his dark turn in ASOS, especially killing a prostitute because he fooled himself into thinking she had projected feelings for him. Most of his ADWD actions I chalked up to PTSD, but I was disappointed and disgusted with him. Then I began my reread, and with an understanding of where Tyrion's story was going, I was able to look at his character more objectively.

Once I was able to divorce myself from his own bullshit narrative, a narrative I think you still accept because you accused everyone who dislikes him for having those feelings due to his appearance (something I've NEVER seen any poster ever argue), I was able to see just how selfish, entitled, and sexist he is...from the start. I found myself inexplicably annoyed with him (and this was a character I really liked before) as I revisited his chapters, especially how self-congratulatory he is for actions that don't merit it, and how he disallows himself any kind of self-reflection because any charge levied against him he chalks up to his dwarfism. He's had a shit life, and being a dwarf in Westeros is no Swiss picnic, I get it, seriously. But his lack of introspection allows him to rationalize away problematic decisions, and then at the same time act as the victim of situations that were his own creation.

Like his marriage to Sansa. The reason I wrote what I did about his marriage to her is because for me, that was the moment where I realized that Tryion isn't a character I like. I was becoming increasingly disillusioned with his character all through this reread, and when I got to this point again in ASOS, I stopped even trying to fight my disgust I felt with his character. But to say that "oh, I liked him fine and them BOOM. Marriage to Sansa, he sucks, k'bye" is completely inaccurate. It's more that his complete disregard for her person and self-pitying in a situation of his making highlighted the reasons why I don't like him and the aspects of his characterization that I find most problematic.

These are just my reasons for my personal feelings about Tyrion. He's a fantastically scripted character, and one who's great to study. I definitely pity him, as I said before, because he has had a really difficult life. But my dislike for his character is not based on single actions, nor is it based on scant readings. Stop trying to paint Tyrion "hate" with a broad brush. Stop trying to suggest that Tyrion "hate" is based on shallow reasons. And for the love of God, everyone, stop trying to say Tyrion didn't commit rape.

"Yes. Is his treatment of Sansa in line with how he's always approached life?"

Which treatment?

Protecting her from Joffrey when he found out about what was going on?

Helping to protect her from Stannis's forces (who would have likely raped first and left the questions for others, assuming they got to her before Cersei and her headsman) by leading men twice his size into battle against men twice his size when Joffrey and the Hound turned tail and ran, nearly getting himself killed in the process?

(Yes, he was defending more people than just her, but she was certainly one of them)

Offering (at great risk of incurring Tywin's wrath and ire) to let her choose Lancel instead of him in a situation where there was no way he could prevent her being forcibly married to somebody named Lannister (or at least no way that leaves her alive)?

(she didn't have a chance to not marry a Lannister, but she had a chance to not marry him, and she said "I am a ward of the throne and my duty is to marry as the king commands." There's no way she didn't know that that duty extended to doing that which consummates marriages and produces heirs. If she wanted to dodge sex as long as possible, she should have chosen Lancel. Tyrion expecting his bride to do her half of their duty was no more attempted rape than Ned and Cat's first night together.)

[Chebyshov]

<snip>

The treatment I already wrote about earlier in this thread.

Again, off-topic, but I was trying to explain to someone why I began to loathe Tyrion because of his treatment of Sansa alone. This is mostly @unitron, but for anyone who cares (spoiler tags for length):

Tyrion acts as if he's the victim in his marriage to Sansa. When Tywin suggested it to him, Tyrion had the option of saying no. He had the option of insisting she marry Lancel instead. Tywin made a vague mention that he'll marry Tyrion to some random lordling's daughter, that Lollys was offered, but Tyrion had complete agency in the situation. UNLIKE his 12-year old child-bride, who being a prisoner in this situation made it even more of a forced situation than most Westerosi arranged marriages. Tyrion wants Winterfell (gets his "queer chill from it), so he goes ahead with it. It's great that he gives Sansa the "choice" between marrying Captor A (himself) and B (Lancel), but this is absolutely not any form of consent.

And so begins Tyrion's self-pity in their marriage. At the wedding, Tyrion felt so embarrassed by Sansa's refusal to kneel, that he goes and gets shitfaced at the wedding and refuses to dance when she's being ridiculously nice for asking. The wedding night is beyond horrifying…you don’t get a cookie for stopping just shy of rape when you put yourself in this situation. Not to mention some of his remarks to her, knowing she’s 12 and married while under duress, are just so disturbing:

Out of the gate he feels owed her affection, and is “angered” by her courtesy. How the hell else is she supposed to behave? Then his disgustingly voyeuristic attitude is a whole other issue, one which highlights his deeply ingrained sexism. The fact that her tacit rejection is enough to stop his advances is pretty impressive, truthfully, given his later exhibited castration anxiety (which becomes his MO for the rest of their marriage). And again. This entire situation was avoidable.

Then, for the rest of their marriage, we see him acting out his castration anxiety, pivoting from voyeurism/devaluation of her character to fetishistic scopophilia.

Okay, so that quote is one of my favorites to use, because he’s upset at a perceived revulsion on Sansa’s part. She meanwhile, is probably worried that every time he stirs in the middle the night, he could roll over and “claim his right.” Yet does Tyrion ever once think about that? No, it’s all about his comforts and his emotional needs. What’s truly troubling is that he understands why Sansa is rejecting him:

Even understanding that she has every reason to hate him solely for his surname (who wouldn’t in that position), he makes it about his own insecurities, and becomes resentful at her refusal to share her thoughts with him.

We also see him continually devaluing her, from wondering if she was “stupid enough” to tell Cersei’s maids that he wasn’t fucking her (again, demonstrating his anxiety about not seeming enough of a man), to saying the demeaning, “the last thing my wife needs is more songs.” In a way it’s funny that he has such a deep misunderstanding of her character (and gets frustrated by his inability to read her), when she has him completely pegged from the wedding night on. FFS, he even thinks that maybe she wishes she was marrying Joffrey! But really, it serves to highlight just how self-absorbed he is.

Later in the marriage, Tyrion’s thoughts turn to how “beautiful” she looks, though always noting her grief and sorrow in the same context.

There’s something really perverse about him gaining some kind of pleasure from his gaze when her distress is so apparent.

And on top of all of this, Tyrion still feels owed her confidence, her thoughts, her affection, her claim. He feels hurt and rejected when she gives him her standard, cool and courteous response to his CR fieldtrip suggestion. Yes, it’s easy to pity him (Sansa does) in this situation. But his complete disregard for her person is inexcusable.

Or ya know, it's because I'm shallow.

[Attitude]

Do you know what a slave is?

Yep pretty good. I just like to take the other side. I think it's rape. But if you look it from the other side, it's easy for Tyrion to deny it. 'She didn't object.'

[Stubby]

[MOD]

This topic has gone far enough.

Inevitably, threads like this descend to analyses of what is or is not rape and there is no need to go around that dance again for the time being.

[/MOD]