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Tyrion UNDENIABLY raped the Sunset Girl


Stannis's Lawyer

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When did I say that 'Tyrion's actions in regard to this slave whore are not the totality of his character'? This thread was created because people were claiming Tyrion is not a rapist, which is like trying to argue that Stannis doesn't burn people. The rape is a fairly important part of his ADWD arc and people who pretend there was no rape going on are IMO doing a disservice to his character.

You may not have said that, but others on this topic are implying it. The topic has outgrown the original premise that those who claim that Tyrion didn't rape the slave whore are wrong.

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Well, closing all brothels would actually be a great idea, but this is going off topic.

The thing is: Tyrion didnt just have sex with some prostitute who was disgusted by his uglyness. She was a slave, she would have got whipped if he refuses.

I do not totally agree with the position that all sex work must be evil and is always exploitation by nature. But we have a hot political debate in my country about it.

There is the back ground that tens of thousands of women are lured to Western Europe, with all kinds of tricks and then there are forced into prostitution, and this is happening in a country where slavery would be unthinkable and is totally forbidden. And what does this help?

My city is one of the biggest places for trafficking children for sexual abuse and yet we have strict laws here, of course, we are free and democratic, there are no slaves by definition.

Just like the poor prostitute in Flea Bottom may formally not be a slave. Does she have the option of saying no? There may be luxury courtesans but how many sex workers can really refuse? Of course they can always starve.

No, this debate is far too theoretical, absolute and does not reflect the sad realities in our world or Martin's world.

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No, i actually wrote directly beneath that it is rape. If you bothered to quote the entire thing you would of spotted it.

It's not a 'defense', I'm telling you that this happened(s) regularly all over Planetos. It's skewed to isolate Tyrion as a rapist when it's commonly practiced all over the planet(os).

Her, and countless others. What a harsh unforgiving world it is. That is the way of it. You don't have to like it.

By your logic, every man on Planetos is technically a rapist because it's based in an era where women have basically no rights.

That's the "everyone else is doing it!" defense. It doesn't make him less of a rapist. The conversation is not about everyone else. It's about him in this instance.

Just because it's an unforgiving, harsh world doesn't mean that all crimes everywhere are a-ok.

That wasn't his logic at all. His logic is that Tyrion had sex with a slave who clearly was being forced. She did not want to have sex with him. Tyrion did it anyway, then did it again even after realizing how fucked up it was. It was rape.

How are you trying to define the rape? And by whose laws? Volantis? Westeros? our world?

That hardly matters.

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A lot of people want to talk about black & white but I want to look at the grey area in between. I ask myself what brought these two characters together for a brief and ugly period of time.

I ask myself, what kind of education do these people have, what's the world like, what guides their moral compass? It certainly has no bearing on our world.

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I don't think it was rape. I despise Tyrion but it wasn't rape.

It seems like not a single woman in this series has had consensual sex.

Only the ones with some power to elude the big consequences.

And not only the women. Men too are forced to marry, fuck and procreate with completely strangers they sometimes saw for the first time in the wedding ceremony. Implying they don't mind or the experience is not bad because "men would fuck anything and be ok with it because fuck yeah, sex!" is sexist.

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Only the ones with some power to elude the big consequences.

And not only the women. Men too are forced to marry, fuck and procreate with completely strangers they sometimes saw for the first time in the wedding ceremony. Implying they don't mind or the experience is not bad because "men would fuck anything and be ok with it because fuck yeah, sex!" is sexist.

Exactly

Men can be victims of sexist structures nearly as much as women, meaning they profit from their abolition as much as women do.

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Seriously, just because they smile doesn't mean they all are ok. with it. Tyrion is not different from many other men in Westeros, only that we haven't seen them all with prostitutes. (Look at Barra's mother and Robert, for instance)

Like on planet earth I'm sure that many women who are prostitutes are in fact fine with the work they are doing. It's a job, they are pros, and while they probably aren't getting much sexual satisfaction, some of them are getting the satisfaction of a job well done and getting paid.

None of this applies to the girl in selhorys. The reader knows it and Tyrion knows it, it's obvious from the POV.

OTOH We aren't given any info on what the girl with Jorah is feeling/thinking so I think we have no idea whether it was consensual. I also think that the vast majority of prostitutes that, say, Robert has been with were consenting. They would be very well paid and servicing a high status client would be professionally satisfying. Not to mention that I don't think Robert would be into fucking a girl who was clearly not into it (as much as I dislike him, Robert doesn't seem to enjoy raping Cersei).

Different times/morals does not mean that basic humanity goes out the window. Tyrion knew what he did was completely horrible, yet he did it anyway. I think that's all we really need to know.

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How did tryion treat sansa poorly?

He didnt rape her

He tried to keep her safe as best he could.

so he didnt love her? No one in KL found her loveable.

He married her in the first place, if not him they would have maeried her to lancel... Yeah he would have bedded her first chance he got.

Tryion was actually the better choice to keep sansa a "maid".

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Um, I hope we're distinguishing between arranged marriage and sexual assault. Sometimes the two go together, but they're not the same thing.



Tyrion and Sansa had an arranged marriage. Tyrion did not rape Sansa.



Ned and Catelyn had an arranged marriage. They enjoyed consensual sex.



Robert and Cersei had an arranged marriage. Robert raped Cersei.


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Arranged marriage = forcing two people who don't even know each other into have sex with the purpose of procreation. It is a situation in which sex is forced for two people. Some end up caring for each other, but not always end up like this.



Cat at least got to knew Brandon before their wedding. But she barely met Ned, yet, they were intended to have marry and have sex as an alliance was already pacted. They were forced to get into bed with a stranger, and imagine how bad the situation was for Ned as she was his brother's betrothed. Let's not go and assume that because he got an erection, consummated, got Cat pregnant and later, loved her, he was having the time of his life there. Some men and women agree that they NEED to learn to get along, but not everybody actually manages.


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How did tryion treat sansa poorly?

He didnt rape her

He tried to keep her safe as best he could.

so he didnt love her? No one in KL found her loveable.

He married her in the first place, if not him they would have maeried her to lancel... Yeah he would have bedded her first chance he got.

Tryion was actually the better choice to keep sansa a "maid".

I agree that Tyrion did not rape Sansa during their marriage, and took decent care of her. Tyrion isn't Gregor Clegane, congrats! But he has serious character flaws and poor sexual judgement and I am seriously concerned for any young wife of his.

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Question: Is Jorah also a rapist?

I mentioned this In my last post. IMO we do not know the extent to which that girl did or did not consent because we don't have her or Jorahs POV.

I'm of the opinion that it is possible for a prostitute to consent, even if she is originally trafficked. But we don't know in this case. He could have raped her, but possibly not.

In Tyrions case we have more info. We know that he knows she'll be punished for not fucking him, that she has dead eyes and is shrinking away for him in fear, and that he physically pushed her legs apart and fucked her. We also see Tyrions shame and horror at what he did.

We are only told what Jorahs whore looks like and that she's on his lap, nothing about how she seems to be responding and of course nothing about the original transaction.

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It seems like not a single woman in this series has had consensual sex.

Catelyn, Asha, Lady Mormont, Aly Mormont, Alys Karstark, Arianne Martell and the Sandsnakes disagree. And quite some more as well.

Um, I hope we're distinguishing between arranged marriage and sexual assault. Sometimes the two go together, but they're not the same thing.

Tyrion and Sansa had an arranged marriage. Tyrion did not rape Sansa.

Ned and Catelyn had an arranged marriage. They enjoyed consensual sex.

Robert and Cersei had an arranged marriage. Robert raped Cersei.

:agree:

Question: Is Jorah also a rapist?

Yes.

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How did tryion treat sansa poorly?

He didnt rape her

He tried to keep her safe as best he could.

so he didnt love her? No one in KL found her loveable.

He married her in the first place, if not him they would have maeried her to lancel... Yeah he would have bedded her first chance he got.

Tryion was actually the better choice to keep sansa a "maid".

1. He groped her breasts when she was clearly uncomfortable. (Btw, she was 13 at this point and Tyrion was mid 20s. Make of that what you will.)

2. That's not a good thing. That's barely neutral. He can't get points for "not raping her."

3. What did he actually do to keep her safe besides say he would do so? He had little power at this point and she was still being harassed up until her flight from KL.

4. "No one else did!" Not a good excuse. He loved the thought of a maiden wife and a castle to call his own. He didn't give a damn about her. He definitely didn't love her.

5. Lancel actually wouldn't have. look at his later marriage. He was in shock and recovering from the war at this point. Tyrion forcibly married her to steal her home. That's not a good thing.

6. That must be why Tywin kept commanding him to bed her. No one had any intentions of keeping Sansa a maid but herself. Even Tyrion was just waiting until she gave him the ok, being the egotist that he is.

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Ah yes I remember the last night my ex-wife and I were together before she hit the road. My goodness we hated each other. She had revulsion in her eyes but I still took it.



How someone looks at or feels about another is not the deciding factor of "is it rape?" Their actions are the deciding factor. Would a slave be beaten, possibly killed for rejecting someone? Sure. Is there still a choice? Yes. Consent is implied by the lack of verbal/physical rejection. There are many loveless relationships in the world, it isn't rape every time they bed down.


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Question: Is Jorah also a rapist?

Is every man who goes to prostitutes a rapist? Definitely not.

But... we don't know what's the situation of a woman who is there providing a service. She could be either forced or being there by her own will. She's definitely not going to say that, specially as mostly of them are meant to pretend they are ok with the situation. So, it's a gamble: by paying the service, such men are inadvertently supporting slavery and abuse. Or maybe they aren't.

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